Can you respec?

[PBJam]

was just curious if you could respec your hero at some point?

[Luckmann]

Of course not.

[Osvir]

Read this thread for more insight.

Not that we know and, I don't think so.

Here's my thoughts on it. Summary: I don't like a mechanical/technical/MMO-respec "Click button" but I would have no problem with a narrative/thematic "one time only" respec-side quest (What with souls and stuff, it could potentially be possible for a character to transfer their soul into another body?). If it can make sense in the world, why not?

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[Night Stalker]

It was going to be in the game, but it was cut.

[Luckmann]

It was going to be in the game, but it was cut.

 

Really? I find that doubtful, since it's fairly well-established in CRPG circles that respeccing is the devil.

[PrimeJunta]

I think one of Josh's goals for the character mechanics was to make respeccing unnecessary, by eliminating "trap choices" in character building as far as possible.

 

Also not a fan of respec. I remember the very first time I played NWN2, and heard about Khelgar's quest to become a monk, so when leveling him up I did all I could to make that viable. Then he got monk and woo, complete respec. I felt gypped.

[Luckmann]

I think one of Josh's goals for the character mechanics was to make respeccing unnecessary, by eliminating "trap choices" in character building as far as possible.

 

Also not a fan of respec. I remember the very first time I played NWN2, and heard about Khelgar's quest to become a monk, so when leveling him up I did all I could to make that viable. Then he got monk and woo, complete respec. I felt gypped.

 

Oh, god, I had forgotten about that. That was so.. terrible. Gnah. Suddenly, new character, woo, wait, what. He even changed deity, no, pantheon. From Clangeddin to Tyr, afaik. Never have a spiritual search and soul-seeking been covered better in gaming.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Luckmann

[Night Stalker]

 

It was going to be in the game, but it was cut.

 

Really? I find that doubtful, since it's fairly well-established in CRPG circles that respeccing is the devil.

 

 

Josh Sawyer have explicietly said he wanted it in the in the past, as long as there was a non-trivial cost associated with it. However, he recently revealed on the SA forums that it would cause some complications with the character/leveling system and because of that, the feature was cut.

[Luckmann]

 

 

It was going to be in the game, but it was cut.

 

Really? I find that doubtful, since it's fairly well-established in CRPG circles that respeccing is the devil.

 

 

Josh Sawyer have explicietly said he wanted it in the in the past, as long as there was a non-trivial cost associated with it. However, he recently revealed on the SA forums that it would cause some complications with the character/leveling system and because of that, the feature was cut.

 

 

Sawyer will never cease to amaze me.

 

 

And disappoint.

 

[Osvir]

What is the problem with a narrative one-time side-quest thematic respec?

Example:
An ancient machine that you can use (and using it will break it) which allows you to respecialize. Choice.
But using it gives some sort of penalty and/or effect. Consequence or Risk.

Anyone who don't want to respecialize won't have to use it, or can use it on a second playthrough to get the narrative bits, and everyone who wants to use it and respecialize can do so. It is a win-win scenario in my opinion, and it could even add to the world building/plot, granted, that it fits into it.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

It trivializes your choices.

 

It's the same problem as with, say, the endgame in KOTOR. You've spent the entire game being Bastard of the Universe/Paragon of Pure Jeditude, then one choice you make in one conversation just before the endgame can completely nullify that.

 

And no, "don't do it if you don't like it" is not a valid counter-argument: the mere fact that you can changes the experience of making your level-up choices.

 

I'll allow that there might be a creative way to approach it that would be fun and would not trivialize your choices, but I'll be damned if I can think of one. PS:T did something like this with the way TNO was able to change class on the fly. It was outrageously overpowered and made a complete mess of the AD&D multi/dual-classing rules, but it was hella fun. I loved building up to mid-levels in fighter and thief while keeping mage my primary class, so I could morph into whatever was needed for each situation. With the nutty geometric XP progression and mountains of XP to be had from conversations there was no downside. And, yes, I would have thought that idea simply won't fly, yet fly it did, on wings of aether.

 

So if that was possible, then maybe respec that's fun would be possible too. But again, if it is, I haven't seen it and can't imagine how it would be. 

[Osvir]

It's the same problem as with, say, the endgame in KOTOR. You've spent the entire game being Bastard of the Universe/Paragon of Pure Jeditude, then one choice you make in one conversation just before the endgame can completely nullify that.

 

Then I have to ask... did you?

 

EDIT: Did you choose to do it?

 

When you know you can do it, how does it trivialize your choices? "I know I can respec later so I don't have to worry about my build"? Is that not a choice you do as well? "I want to build my character like this, and I won't respec in that obscure location away from the critical path on that side-quest" is also a choice.

 

Simply allowing you to choose to respec trivializes your choice to not respec and then continue to play as if there is no respec?

 

I don't understand 

 

Therein "Don't do it if you don't like it" is a valid argument. Don't build a High Intelligence character if you don't like it. Don't build a High Might character if you don't like it. Don't wear armor if you don't like it. Don't play with party members if you don't like it.

 

Play like you like to play

 

If there'd be some sort of one-time-use "Machine" or whatever that could allow a respec option... could it not have another feature too? For those who don't want to respecialize (and it wouldn't only be a service for fans who likes respec).

 

Example: "With this machine you can empower your soul, or restructure your soul... what are you seeking, Watcher?"

A) "I want to restructure it" (Respecialization)

B) "I want power!" (+Stat and/or +Talent Bonus)

 

Choice & Consequence. Naturally, after choosing the machine breaks down, and you wouldn't be able to respecialize afterwards or be able to gain the other bonus depending on your choice.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

:shrug: If you don't see it, I guess you don't see it. I don't know how I can put it any more clearly than that. In any case, every cRPG I've played which does have respec has been, for me, cheapened by having it, and the reason for that is that I feel it trivializes the often agonizing choices I've made when leveling up my character. So much so that when faced with the option to respec, the magic dies for me and I end up quitting the game. It just ruins the fun.

 

Edit: to answer your question, the first time I played KOTOR and hit that conversation, I quit. Didn't even bother finishing the endgame. Only did that much later.

Edited March 18, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Osvir]

No, I do see it. I don't like it either when it is a trivial "Click Button" that makes no sense and/or is a "service" (Like in MMO's) more so than something intruiging, interesting and well integrated. I didn't even know a respec in KOTOR existed (long time since I played that game).

How was it presented to the Player/You in the game? Was there any sort of "This makes sense" or was it a typical MMO implementation in the same vein of "Pay Gold -> Respec" (except "Pick Dialogue options -> Respec" with zero explanation/context)?

I'll ask again... if the option to respecialize was bundled with another choice "Respecialize or get this [bonus]" would that be better/worse? How? Why?

I'm asking and wondering because, this is thread number "I've lost count" on this subject. Obviously, this is a requested design that many people like (Which is exactly why I'm asking questions to those who don't like it, I want to find a "cool" concept implementation of it where it doesn't trivialize character building). Where is the middle ground where two hands meet?

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

No, I do see it. I don't like it either when it is a trivial "Click Button" that makes no sense and/or is a "service" more so than something intruiging, interesting and well integrated (Like in MMO's). I didn't even know a respec in KOTOR existed (long time since I played that game).

 

How was it presented to the Player/You in the game? Was there any sort of "This makes sense" or was it a typical MMO implementation in the same vein of "Pay Gold -> Respec" (except "Pick Dialogue options -> Respec" with zero explanation/context)?

 

I'll ask again... if the option to respecialize was bundled with another choice "Respecialize or get this [bonus]" would that be better/worse? How? Why?

 

I'm asking and wondering because, this is thread number "I've lost count" on this subject. Obviously, this is a requested design that many people like (Which is exactly why I'm asking questions to those who don't like it, I want to find a "cool" concept implementation of it where it doesn't trivialize character building). Where is the middle ground where two hands meet?

 

In KOTOR it's not a respec, it's resetting your dark side/light side meter. I brought it up because it turned me off the game for the same reason respec turns me off other games, and I thought it was more relatable.

 

Putting a cost on the respec won't change it for me, unless the cost is so big that respec might as well not be there at all. If flipping your DS/LS alignment had, say, cost you a level, it would have been exactly as off-putting. It still trivializes my choices through the game.

[Jarmo]

I'll just quickly add that if one misreads the topics as "respect",

then all the hell no! negativity can be real puzzling at first.

[Osvir]

 

 It still trivializes my choices through the game.

This is where I am scratching my head. Because respec is a choice in itself, and when you put it this way it looks like "I trivialize my own choices when I see a respecialize option that I'm not even choosing to use anyways". I kind of do the same myself, to be honest (although I shrug and forget about it).

"Respec" is (in all games I've seen it) a flat and boring service. It's not a thematic, narrative design with its own explanation and context. It is not believable. It is thrown into games because "people asked for it" and I presume designers/writers have chosen not to try anything creative with it, or it's been a last minute decision, or publishers have pushed it in there (because "people are asking for it") and following that it hasn't been a good implementation. That is not the same as "it can't be good", it just means "it hasn't been good because no one has tried to do anything good with it" (in my experience).

Here's my train of thought:

1: Seeing people ask for this feature:
"Okay, lots of people like this. I don't like it... what would be a solution where I could like it?"

2: Conceptualizing:
"How would I enjoy it the most? Something narrative, something that is believable and fits in the world, definitely... Maybe hm, a machine that... does something with the soul? Hm...... maybe it could affect reputations? Maybe you could destroy it too! Or gain power from it... hmm! Right! You can forge weapons with souls in this game! Maybe you can forge this power into a weapon of your choice even?? Or forge your own soul into another being, which allows respecialization. The Player would only be able to pick one of these, and then the machine is destroyed... and gain different bonuses, abilities or talents based on the choice, and companions might like it or not... maybe you could resurrect a character with it too? Hm... and each option having deeper reactivity and consequences... maybe the power one makes companions uneasy, and player becomes slightly more corrupted hm... and the weapon is cursed maybe... and putting your soul in another body... nobody would know who you are... hm... or destroying it, and gaining benevolance? Hm..."

In short: A "one-time soul forge machine thing" with multiple "You can only choose one" choices is all I can come up with that'd be a compromise for me, if there'd be a respecialization option.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[StubbinMyToe]

I would like to see a respec feature!  Since this is a single player game, not a competitive multiplayer game, it has no negative impact on anyone.  If this were multiplayer, I might not want it, but even MMO's today have respec.

[redneckdevil]

I'm gonna say no to the whole respec. Why? Because my opinion is just as important as someone who does, and so far I haven't seen it done in a way that didn't break immersion OR trivialize some type of consequence.

Since its a single player game and just like people will say there's no harm in having it, there's also no harm in NOT having it either.

I'd dare say that not having a respec will passively push people to play and experience builds and classes and races that they wouldn't have if not for ignorance or the mistake. Still don't wanna play because it's nudging u or messing with ur min/max complex, then there's still hope! Start all over and create what u had in mind with better knowledge of the game.

We can experience things we normally wouldn't if we had respec and tbh a lot of people are gonna be rerolling many of times anyways and I personally find that to be fun sometimes.

So just like with romance, it's not there so instead of finding reasons for "why it should be implemented", instead just accept the fact and be more careful or reckless as u wanna be in creating ur character. Remember it's only a single player game

Edited March 18, 2015 by redneckdevil

[jackyjackyjackychan]

I am in the "no respec" camp. I like the feel of every character decision having weight.

[Osvir]

I'm gonna say no to the whole respec. Why? Because my opinion is just as important as someone who does, and so far I haven't seen it done in a way that didn't break immersion OR trivialize some type of consequence.

Since its a single player game and just like people will say there's no harm in having it, there's also no harm in NOT having it either.

I'd dare say that not having a respec will passively push people to play and experience builds and classes and races that they wouldn't have if not for ignorance or the mistake. Still don't wanna play because it's nudging u or messing with ur min/max complex, then there's still hope! Start all over and create what u had in mind with better knowledge of the game.

We can experience things we normally wouldn't if we had respec and tbh a lot of people are gonna be rerolling many of times anyways and I personally find that to be fun sometimes.

So just like with romance, it's not there so instead of finding reasons for "why it should be implemented", instead just accept the fact and be more careful or reckless as u wanna be in creating ur character. Remember it's only a single player game

I'm more about "How could it be good?" (rethorics, invention, ideas) and not so much at all about "Why it should be implemented" (demands).

 

You state something interesting though, which follows the same vein like PrimeJunta, and I quote: "... and so far I haven't seen it done in a way that didn't break immersion OR trivialize some type of consequence." -> How could it not break immersion and how could it not trivialize, in your dream scenario?

 

I am in the "no respec" camp. I like the feel of every character decision having weight.

What if respec could apply to character decision and also have weight? Right? It's not impossible in the realm of imagination and creativity.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotheticals

Edited March 18, 2015 by Osvir

[Fenwick]

Respecs tend to only appear in games like RPGs where there is a good chance that early choices can cripple or harm a character's development. RPGs, in particular, often require an abundance of knowledge and system mastery at the beginning of the game (when your character is created) rather than the end. In fact, some of the choices you make at the beginning of an RPG when you have the least knowledge have the most impact on the game (class, race, stats, alignment, etc.). This is actually the opposite of how many games work today (e.g., introduce a mechanic, let the player explore that mechanic. Introduce another mechanic, let the player explore that new mechanic, etc.).

 

While I'm not suggesting that players have the ability to change their class or race, respecs help alleviate this issue by allowing players to effectively make new decisions after they've had time to actually know their ramifications. I know that respecs are not popular choice, especially among grognards. And there is definitely something to be said about permanency and consequence that helps put the "RP" in "RPG".

 

However, not everyone has the time to devote endless hours in restarting a character and exploring viable options in an already large game. The long path in developing a particular "build" can have the opposite effect that redneckdevil implied: when character choice is permanent, and a large amount of time is required for a build to mature, players will tend to go on the internet to find the best build and copy it rather than devote hours to exploring whether or not a particular build is viable. A good example of this is Diablo II, where most of the work (read: hours) was done by a select few, and copied by everyone else reading a forum.

 

Sawyer has explained that he would like everything to be "viable", but that doesn't necessarily mean that at higher difficulty levels that building a party of 18 CON characters with terrible skills is going to work, regardless of your playing ability. 

 

I'm an RPG veteran. I completed the backer beta on Hard and played a bit on Path of the Damned. The beta is fairly short, but I quickly found some of my earlier choices and assumptions in this limited area to be wrong as far as what I was trying to achieve with a particular character. Why? Because I wasn't familiar with the system. After experience with the game, I quickly realized that I had made an incorrect choice, but I didn't have enough information at that time to recognize it.

 

I personally would support some kind of respec, but with an associated cost as to make it non-trivial. In this way, there is still some consequence in character choices without forcing a player to restart a game with a character they feel isn't built the way they really want. Of course, once the game ships, someone will inevitably create a trainer that will allow you to respec, but it's unfortunate that one will have to go to some dark corner of the internet to download a 3rd party EXE to do it (talk about breaking narrative).

 

Of course it's not a necessity that a player make all the "right" choices, but for some of us, that's one of the reasons we enjoy these types of games.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Fenwick

[Gromnir]

I am in the "no respec" camp. I like the feel of every character decision having weight.

a single respec, to account for the inevitable bugginess o' the game would actual seem to fix the problem o' our choices being robbed o' their weight. the rules mechanics, even for people who has followed these boards, is obscure bordering on incomprehensible at times.  improved interrupt boosts interrupt chance by 15%.  how?  our interrupt value stays the same with improved interrupt, so where does the 15% modification come into play?  we got no idea.  there may even be a good explanation, but it don't change the fact that for many rules, we is still kinda guessing as to how they actual work.  for a player who has not been following the game, many rules is gonna be complete incomprehensible and counter-intuitive.  find out 2/3 o' the way through the game that a 1h weapon approach is horrible? also, in spite o' all the testing and feedback, many mechanic errors will become apparent in the coming weeks and months after release.  our decisions should have weight, but due to bugs and rules obscurity, our role-play choices is gonna be thwarted in ways both minor and major. 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70370-option-to-respec/?p=1566871

 

a single respec makes sense.  we restarted wasteland 2 a half dozen times 'cause o' rule ambiguities/brokenness and unforeseen bugs... and then inxile fixed some bugs/mechanics which then broke our fixed characters.  wasteland 2 also had an extensive beta.

 

poe will be broken.  poe rules is obscure.  also, is a single player game, so why should anybody care if some random guy uses a single respec opportunity to game the game?  hell, some o' the folks we has seen lobbying against respec is also folks we has seen advocating rolling for attributes, which is utterly mind boggling to us.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Endrosz]

I'm neutral about a respec, but I can offer a proper ingame explanation for those who want it: Soul Modifier/Eraser animancy device, ancient Engwithan gizmo. It's located in one of the most difficult areas, is introduced by a side quest, all well and done.

[Gfted1]

There should absolutely be a respec option and it should be located in your stronghold for convenience. Also, there needs to be a fast travel portal right next to it.