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 I still think a respeccing side-quest is a monumental waste of resources that would be better spent elsewhere.

A) Is there any other way to make it a consequence that adds to roleplaying?

B) Multiple choices, each with consequence, one time use. Respeccing being 1 of the optional choices. The side-quest does not have to be "this is a respec quest" but it can be "this is an interesting side-quest with multiple choiceS and consequenceS, and respec can be 1 of the 5 optional choices".

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BTW I have nothing against events that let you make minor adjustments to your character, like, say, the potions of ability transference you found in IWD and possibly some other IE games, or, say, the possibility to swap one soul-powered ability for another. I am opposed to respec which erases your history and lets you rebuild from scratch, more or less.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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^Yes. A respec shouldn't change "Culture" or "Background" or remove any of the choices the Player has made in terms of roleplay, in fact, it could add a lot to it depending on how it is done.

For instance: Your soul is in an Orlan, and you put it into an Aumauan body? That's going to change your physiology quite drastically. Your mass, volume, muscles, your appearance. Additionally, maybe you even got tricked and there was a sub-optimal brain in the Aumauan body because the "Machine" tricked you? (Or you suddenly speak an ancient language that no one understands haha). Attributes of the Aumauan and the Orlan would be different, and the Aumauan body has perhaps a different lifepath/way of life/lifestyle engraved into it (Class). The important thing would be just that, it shouldn't change who your character is, or rather... it shouldn't change their "soul".

That progressive biography that Obsidian has developed could even play a part into it too.

People and NPC's you once met won't recognize you anymore either. And when you get back to the Stronghold, NPC's and characters there might be all "Who the hell are you?" and if you try to claim it they'll attack you because you aren't their leader and it becomes a massive misunderstanding and an indirect mutiny and coup against you (whilst of course, your loyal subjects are just trying to defend your throne xD).

But Companions that participate, that see you undergo the change would/could also react, or might even advice against it, or advice for it too. "No! This machine reeks! Don't do it!" or "Imagine that! To be able to change ones body, to change ones looks, to change all flaws in oneself". And companions not in your party at the time might be all "Who the hell are you?".

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Not what I meant. 

 

Respec = rebuilding your character from level 1 (possibly excluding stat distribution or some such).

 

Adjustments = stuff like moving one ability point from one stat to another, or swapping one class ability for another.

 

I am (almost) categorically opposed to the former (as I feel it trivializes yadda yadda yadda), but not to the latter.

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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while i understand the reasons for not having it, usually games like this have issues with the "cool ability" syndrome where an ability sounds cool or useful but turns out not to be or doesnt work like you expect.

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Not a big fan of respecing (I usually just restart the game if not happy with my choices and create a new character from scratch).

 

That said, I could see some lore related reasons (say a Diety granting a respec into a priest class after a quest) for it being in a game. And I'm not sure a lore related reason is absolutely necessary; really depends on the game and whether it fits that game.

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From a relevance standpoint, PoE WILL have a Live DM: The PLAYER. It's call the gameplay settings. And the reload button.

 change settings and reload is hardly the same as having a live gm... ain't even similar.  thank goodness.  and am not sure what you think "from a relevance standpoint" actual means, unless you is trying to say that pj were claiming that his tailoring o' encounters and house rules were genuine equivalent to settings and reload... which would be ridiculous.

 

*shrug*

 

discuss with pj and stun invariably becomes a vaudeville act.

 

Gromnir: a

 

pj and stun: Gromnir said, "b."

 

Gromnir: a

 

pj and stun: Gromnir meant c.

 

Gromnir: A

 

pj and stun:

 IviNsUi.png

 

...

 

is a dead end.  and yes, we get the irony o' Gromnir playing the straight man in this little comedy bit.  even so, all we gets to do is repeat self. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps "Not a big fan of respecing (I usually just restart the game if not happy with my choices and create a new character from scratch)."

 

that, in our estimation, is exact why a single respec is warranted.  particularly in the case where is developer errors that ruin a character concept (e.g. dragon age :origin archers) the expedient o' starting from scratch, after potential dozens o' hours o' invested gameplay, is not a solution we embrace cheerfully.  weren't Gromnir's mistake, but if we wanna fix we gotta replay potential dozens o' hours, wait for a patch (weeks or months) which might fix the problem, or endure.  additional, we look at bb and the confusion 'bout rules mechanics from people who has posted here daily for months and we cannot help but think that more than a few folks who is less invested in poe is gonna be mighty confused by how poorly their character concept actual performs. they read descriptions and invested points reasonable and their character still sux? 

 

what possible harm?  is a single respec.  for folks who believes their character is genuine broken, a respec would, we suspect, be quite welcome.  for the folks who somehow manage to find a way to abuse a single respec in a game that is s'posed to be balanced, so what?  is a sp game, no?  if some joker, who likely needs meta knowledge, finds a way to game the game with a single respec, why should we care?   for the upright and pure role-players o' justice who would never use such a filthy feature, respec should be no concern at all, yes? 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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IMHO no need for respeccing characters. Just make your choice - and that's it. Like in real life. :-)

poe is a game.

 

just an observation in case it went unnoticed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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IMHO no need for respeccing characters. Just make your choice - and that's it. Like in real life. :-)

poe is a game.

 

just an observation in case it went unnoticed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

just having the option to respec makes the whole journey unsatisfying, even if i ignore it - it's still there. sorry, but that's just how i feel.

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that, in our estimation, is exact why a single respec is warranted.  particularly in the case where is developer errors that ruin a character concept (e.g. dragon age :origin archers) the expedient o' starting from scratch, after potential dozens o' hours o' invested gameplay, is not a solution we embrace cheerfully.  weren't Gromnir's mistake, but if we wanna fix we gotta replay potential dozens o' hours, wait for a patch (weeks or months) which might fix the problem, or endure.  additional, we look at bb and the confusion 'bout rules mechanics from people who has posted here daily for months and we cannot help but think that more than a few folks who is less invested in poe is gonna be mighty confused by how poorly their character concept actual performs. they read descriptions and invested points reasonable and their character still sux?

Then how WILL you deal with it, O' Casual Modern Gamer? You do realize that this entire discussion is academic, don't you? There will be no Respec feature in PoE. Just like the IE games, PoE will require you to either learn to play with the character you mis-built out of your own ignorance of the rules, or else learn to correct them by making specific build choices on your remaining level ups, or else start over and try again, or else learn the Cheat codes. Guess you're out of luck here. Back to Dragon Age with you.

 

 

 

poe is a game.

 

just an observation in case it went unnoticed.

Really now! And here I thought, after reading your incessant blatherings, that PoE wasn't a game so much as a giant mass of broken code trying to pass for a game. So... are you trying to tell us, now, that PoE doesn't stand for Pile of Errors? Edited by Stun
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ps "Not a big fan of respecing (I usually just restart the game if not happy with my choices and create a new character from scratch)."

 

that, in our estimation, is exact why a single respec is warranted.  particularly in the case where is developer errors that ruin a character concept (e.g. dragon age :origin archers) the expedient o' starting from scratch, after potential dozens o' hours o' invested gameplay, is not a solution we embrace cheerfully.  weren't Gromnir's mistake, but if we wanna fix we gotta replay potential dozens o' hours, wait for a patch (weeks or months) which might fix the problem, or endure.  additional, we look at bb and the confusion 'bout rules mechanics from people who has posted here daily for months and we cannot help but think that more than a few folks who is less invested in poe is gonna be mighty confused by how poorly their character concept actual performs. they read descriptions and invested points reasonable and their character still sux? 

 

what possible harm?  is a single respec.  for folks who believes their character is genuine broken, a respec would, we suspect, be quite welcome.  for the folks who somehow manage to find a way to abuse a single respec in a game that is s'posed to be balanced, so what?  is a sp game, no?  if some joker, who likely needs meta knowledge, finds a way to game the game with a single respec, why should we care?   for the upright and pure role-players o' justice who would never use such a filthy feature, respec should be no concern at all, yes? 

 

I restart RPG games all the time anyhow, so for me its no more of a time commitment to restart because I played a wizard and decided to be a fighter than if I start as elf and decide halfway through the game I really would rather play a dwarf.

 

But I admit that's a personal quirk.  And personally I don't see any specific harm in a respec option; to me its going to depend rather heavily on the game.  I just don't really see a large negative to restarting to create a new character and having no respec.

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stun enjoys proving our point.  

 

Gromnir: a

 

stun: "after reading (Gromnir's) incessant blatherings, that PoE wasn't a game, so much as a giant mass of broken code trying to pass for a game.

 

Gromnir: A

 

am not certain what is the motivation for being so transparent obtuse. you insisting on telling us what we said and purposeful doing wrong is not nearly as amusing or efficacious as you seem to believe.

 

also, what we will do in absence o' respec is proving our point.  we already said what were our options, many times now.  is where we pointed out that you have no idea what is false dilemma fallacy, recall?  we also noted that depending on the severity o' brokenness o' a character, we would choose different options and that our notion o' broken would be different from many other folks. regardless, we assume that if we genuine is faced with a broken character, a disturbingly likely eventuality, we will need deal with some degree o' wholly unnecessary frustration.

 

but again, here we is repeating self.  

 

"eat rude brains."

 

"I just don't really see a large negative to restarting to create a new character and having no respec."

 

is perfectly acceptable.  everybody likes different.  some folks don't mind restarting after dozens o' hours o' time invested.  other folks, understandably, feel frustrated that rules mechanics ambiguities or bugs invalidated a character concept.  is perfectly fine to have different pov.  respec is completely unnecessary for amentep, yes?  no problem.  amentep wouldn't ever need use such a feature, so no harm done.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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what possible harm?  is a single respec.  for folks who believes their character is genuine broken, a respec would, we suspect, be quite welcome.  for the folks who somehow manage to find a way to abuse a single respec in a game that is s'posed to be balanced, so what?  is a sp game, no?  if some joker, who likely needs meta knowledge, finds a way to game the game with a single respec, why should we care?   for the upright and pure role-players o' justice who would never use such a filthy feature, respec should be no concern at all, yes?

You forgot one.

 

For players who won't be happy until PoE resembles Diablo 3 or Dragon Age inquisition, there's the door ----->

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we assume that if we genuine is faced with a broken character, a disturbingly likely eventuality, we will need deal with some degree o' wholly unnecessary frustration.

By respeccing?

 

What makes you think that someone who decided to respec their character because the build was broken, won't soon discover that their new, respecced build is also broken?

 

We are, after all, Operating under YOUR assumption that the game will likely have broken builds, yes?

Edited by Stun
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what possible harm?  is a single respec.  for folks who believes their character is genuine broken, a respec would, we suspect, be quite welcome.  for the folks who somehow manage to find a way to abuse a single respec in a game that is s'posed to be balanced, so what?  is a sp game, no?  if some joker, who likely needs meta knowledge, finds a way to game the game with a single respec, why should we care?   for the upright and pure role-players o' justice who would never use such a filthy feature, respec should be no concern at all, yes?

You forgot one.

 

For players who won't be happy until PoE resembles Diablo 3 or Dragon Age inquisition, there's the door ----->

 

funny.  for some reason we were just reminded o' some your combat xp protests and other appeals.  wonder why, eh?

 

 

and yes, we suspect that more than a few folks will discover that a single respec is insufficient.  even so, the imagined dangers o' a single respec is very slight and the benefits to the inevitably frustrated players, players frustrated through no fault o' their own in many cases, are significant.  it's a sp game, so why folks care if others respec is beyond us, but we do understand developer concerns that excessive respec could be exploited to ruin game balance. Gromnir were not pretending a perfect solution that would make everybody happy... is not some kinda modern fairy tale or cheesy anime scenario.  a world where nobody has to cry?  *snort*  folks will be disappointed regardless.  however, respec would significantly alleviate frustration and would decrease some o' the inevitable displeasure folks will vent at the developers while they needs wait for obsidian's next patch, or the patch after that, or the one after that. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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for some reason we were just reminded o' some your combat xp protests and other appeals.  wonder why, eh?

The XP debates! Yes!

 

I beg your pardon, Grom.... As a lawyer, you should learn to appreciate wildly successful appeals. Especially when they slap you upside the face. I bet it still hurts, doesn't it. All those days of your willful smug arrogance, confidently pronouncing that arguing for combat XP, and trap disarming XP, and exploration XP was all a pointless waste of time.... ...Only to later see the Devs do a complete 180 on the issue and implement all 3, making the game better as a result.

 

 

even so, the imagined dangers o' a single respec is very slight

Slight imagined Dangers? How Fickle are we! Less than a page ago, Broken builds were *frustrating*, *disgruntling*, and disturbingly *likely*.

 

But now, apparently, if they occur as a result of respeccing, they're only slight and imagined. lol

Edited by Stun
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...

 

 

you honestly consider the bestiary to be developer implementation o' what folks were demanding when they asked for combat xp?

 

HA!

 

HAAHHHAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA!

 

you are more amusing or dumber than we thought.  

 

ok, that were funny.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps surprised we got to use again... woody.

 

pps since you misunderstood, the imagined dangers we reference is the potential exploitation issues caused by respec.  yes, the level o' frustration from playing a broken character is disturbingly likely.  what is not significant is the damage a player could do to balance o' the game with a single respec.  am not certain why you thought that an unsatisfying respec would amount to a danger, but we apologize for the ambiguity regardless.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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while i understand the reasons for not having it, usually games like this have issues with the "cool ability" syndrome where an ability sounds cool or useful but turns out not to be or doesnt work like you expect.

 

I don't think PoE has many of those, to be honest.  Far more heavily on the x1.2 or +10% abilities.  What it does have is a very limited ability to explain to the player what exactly is going on.  Beta backers have been literally digging into the code to find out how things function, because nothing in the game tells them.

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If anything, I think giving trap and lock XP on one side and the bestiary solution (which I actually thought was an intelligent and reasonable compromise) on the other was insulting to the combat XP crowd.  ...And I would rather see combat XP than trap and lock XP personally.  ...But I digress.  I can't get worked up over respeccing.  Normally, I restart a game if I don't like a build.  Frankly, I'm not for it, but I don't think it matters all that much difference in the game.  I suppose if it helps out some newbies who've screwed themselves into a really bad build, and there will be folks who manage it even though I think it will be hard in PoE, then it's not all bad.

 

As far as the fighting goes, I guess I should step in and say "be nice" or something.  In reality, as long as you don't completely devolve into personal insults, I actually think there's some interesting arguments on both sides if you can wade through the fightin'.  So, no personal flames or vendetta warfare, please.

 

EDIT:  and, to be clear, I didn't want combat XP either.  I just hate it somewhat less than trap and lock xp.

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