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Im against Respecs in general, choice and consequences is part of the game, as it should be.

 

I can udnerstand people being annoyed by a ****ty build they made but the again this was addressed from the start. This here is Not DnD and the character system is way better to avoid such nonsense choices, a "normal" player will probably never Know which option would have been better in the end since they do not inform themselves up front (like many others do).

 

So i dont think anyone will fall flat on their face, regardless of build and that something i found great from the get go, so a respec shouldnt be needed.

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By giving an equal or greater consequence to the respec while staying and being explained by ingame mechanics and lore. Respec classes? Take ur soul and place it into the body of someone of that class but lose the prestige and reputation and all the perks and whatnot that came along with those. Respec attributes? Limbs and organs and whatnot (arms for might, chest for endurance, eyes for perception, brain for intelligence, etc etc) are taken from slaves or unfortuants and placed on ur body thru science and animancy. You get to change ur attributes but due to it being an experiment with animancy, the parts are eternal but in a state of decay so take the buffs that u get with the attribute and let them keep it but give an equal debuff as well due to the decay and animancy side effects (even have it start and eventual get worse over time like at first just something very very minor but after so many ingame days the debuff gets worse and then after so many days it gets even worse). Also have npcs either say, react, or be influenced by the action u did and/or the physical state of ur body as well.

 

I think the main issue is two fold. One have an ingame and lore reason for this to be able to happen, which most games it's something outta nowhere and seems outta place and conflicts with the actual game vibe and lore. Two and I would say most important is that it's something for nothing. Made a mistake? No worries at all, just respec and ur problem is gone and taken care of. Something for nothing, feels cheap. You place a respec in the game but give it a consequence that's equal or greater....then u get rid of the something for nothing (I sure as hell ain't talking about money cost or something that's cureable either) feeling and u make it something that goes with the game and fits and limit the use, then okay.

Edited by redneckdevil
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I hope you would not be able to respec and take responsibility for allocating those points and taking those decisions.

The same with the difficulty level.

  After my realization that White March has the same XP reward problem, I don't even have the drive to launch game anymore because I hated so much reaching Twin Elms with a level cap in vanilla PoE that I don't wish to relive that experience.

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I hope you would not be able to respec and take responsibility for allocating those points and taking those decisions.

The same with the difficulty level.

take responsibility?

 

...

 

it's a freaking game.  you didn't get a girl pregnant or take out a mortgage on your home.  your responsibility is to pay for the game... period. as a consumer, you have a reasonable expectation that the game will be fun.  if developer mistakes and rule ambiguities result in your enjoyment o' the game being diminished, we could argue that the developers have a responsibility to fix the problem.  is a patch a month or three from now sufficient effort on the part o' the developer?  perhaps.  what do you do in the interim while you got a broken character, or at least a character that doesn't fulfill your role-play expectations even though you read the in-game descriptions o' talents and abilities? 

 

for chrissakes, if this were pnp, and you discovered that the rules of a brand new system were predictably broken such that it made Bob's character horribly unfun for him, what kinda arse-bag gm/dm would simple tell Bob that he should man-up and "take responsibility"?  the goal in pnp is no different than a crpg: we are playing the game to have fun.  as a gm/dm, if we see Bob gots serious screwed 'cuse o' his character development choices, we ain't gonna twist him up and force him to keep playing a broken character 'cause o' some kinda misplaced notions o' fairness and responsibility.  it's a game, but is not as if one guy at the gaming table gets declared the winner.  we does what it takes to make the game enjoyable for players.  

 

as a gm/dm in a pnp situation, we can typical tailor encounters to overcome most shortcomings o' player design.  if we can't fix by tailoring encounters, we create house-rules and make alterations.  is any number o' ways a pnp gm/dm can make Bob's playing with a broken character a fun experience.  worst-case scenario, if we can't fix problem, we allow Bob to roll a new character at the same level as the rest o' the folks at the table, and we continue playing.

 

but we is talking 'bout crpgs and there is no living gm.  if obsidian made a mistake with mechanics and Bob is constant failing reflex checks and dying disproportionate, obsidian can't tailor so is far fewer reflex checks.  obsidian can't create house-rules on the fly to deal with the busted mechanic resulting in Bob's perpetual fail relex saves. obsidian needs create a patch, whcih takes weeks to months to reach the player, and the patch is likely to break other aspects o' the game.

 

obsidian should take responsibility.  is a game and we is a paying customer.  we got no responsibility. obsidian has a responsibility to us.  make fun.  patches is a good start on taking responsibility, but a single respec would go a long way in diminishing the inevitable damage broken mechanics, rule ambiguity and bugs is gonna cause their paying customers.

 

take responsibility?  

 

*snort*

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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 But the points above are solid: these are long games, and the purist approach will just lead to cookie cutter internet builds. And, given the lore, I can certainly see ways that a one shot respect could fit in logically.

In order:

how is length related?

how does purity lead to cookie cutter internet builds (which are about as far from pure as i can imagine)  [bonus question: so what if it does?]

 

Lore:  Go on, then.  Throw down a lore based rebuild-your-character-from-scratch-for-reasons and then also give a reason why it could only happen once. 

 

 

 

Though when you get right down to it bugs, bug-fixing and the active (and accidental) obfuscation of mechanics (which a lot of players aren't going to penetrate or understand if they do) is a decent real-world reason for it.

Edited by Voss
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What is the problem with a narrative one-time side-quest thematic respec?

There are several problems with any character respec feature, and trying to mask it by tying it to the narrative does nothing to alleviate these problems.

 

First off, lets be a little more honest with the Choice/Consequence claims. The only reason anyone would ever want to respec their character is if they're unhappy with the way they built them in the first place. So by putting a respec feature in the game, the only "choice" you're adding is.... the choice to fix your build mistakes. In the old days, the solution to a bad build was to replay the game, and try to build a better character the next time out. Crazy, I know.

 

 

Secondly, story based or not, fantasy world or not, magic or not, it's unbelievable and super-gamey. You've busted your ass to become an 8th level Barbarian. But now you come across a "machine" that will erase your mind and body and replace it with a new mind and body....of a 8th level Chanter (or whatever). Silly.

 

Third, the only respec feature the IE games had were the CluaConsole commands (cheats), and....the character creation screen (starting over). Not sure why that's suddenly not good enough for PoE.

 

 

Anyone who don't want to respecialize won't have to use it

Aah. The impregnable catch-all response: "It's Optional!" Here, let me counter it. How about the Developers NOT offer such a retarded modern-gamer safety-net feature, and if you don't like it, you simply go play a more forgiving game? Edited by Stun
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as a gm/dm, if we see Bob gots serious screwed 'cuse o' his character development choices, we ain't gonna twist him up and force him to keep playing a broken character 'cause o' some kinda misplaced notions o' fairness and responsibility.

I agree. In that scenario we'll give Bob the option to retire his character and play a different one.

 

We won't, for example, suddenly break the campaign by having the Gods/genie-in-a-bottle/Ring of 10 wishes, drop down from the sky and morph his badly built character into something new and improved, because that would be stupid.

Edited by Stun
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 as a gm/dm, if we see Bob gots serious screwed 'cuse o' his character development choices, we ain't gonna twist him up and force him to keep playing a broken character 'cause o' some kinda misplaced notions o' fairness and responsibility.

Correct. In that scenario we'll give Bob the option to retire his character and play a different one.

 

We won't, for example, suddenly break the campaign by having the Gods/genie-in-a-bottle/Ring of 10 wishes, drop down from the sky and morph his badly built character into something new and improved right in the middle of the adventure.

 

actually, that is effectively what we do.  

 

respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

v.

 

retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid.

 

what we don't do is force the campaign back to day 1 when everybody were level 1.  we don't force the entire group to replay the exact same adventures and encounters for... what?  why? bad rules, ambiguities, mistakes and other such nonsense is not a reason to force a complete unnecessary replay o' potential months o' gameplay... or days/weeks in crpg.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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actually, that is effectively what we do.

 

respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

v.

 

retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid.

I see. In that case, PoE already has a "respec" feature. Don't like your Wizard? that's fine, get rid of him and hire a Chanter of the exact same level the next time you're at an Inn. Edited by Stun
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actually, that is effectively what we do.

 

respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

v.

 

retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid.

I see. In that case, PoE already has a "respec" feature. Don't like your Wizard? that's fine, get rid of him and hire a Chanter of the exact same level the next time you're at an Inn.

 

 

I'm not sure that works for PoE.  Pretty sure there are stupid Chosen One shenanigans going on and you can't replace your main character.

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actually, that is effectively what we do.

 

respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

v.

 

retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid.

I see. In that case, PoE already has a "respec" feature. Don't like your Wizard? that's fine, get rid of him and hire a Chanter of the exact same level the next time you're at an Inn.

 

actually, no, that isn't at all analogous.  allow everybody in our hypothetical pnp group but Bob to respec?  doesn't seem fair.  Bob is still stuck with his broken character, but every other party member can be changed?  

 

...

 

you aren't trying very hard, are you?

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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actually, no, that isn't at all analogous.  allow everybody in our hypothetical pnp group but Bob to respec?

In your hypothetical, Bob isn't respeccing, his character is. Which is a rather important distinction, considering that PoE is a party based game where the player is controlling up to 6 characters at once.

 

But your point (And Voss' point) is well taken. PoE is built upon the mechanic that there is a "Main" character. Therefore it's silly to cite PnP as any sort of analogy for that. But hey, lets not let faulty hypotheticals get in the way of our defense of stupid modern game features.

Edited by Stun
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yeah, no respec. like mentioned, it puts weight into your decisions and character progression. ****ty/nonoptimal build? that's fine imo, it makes each playthrough something special. if there was an option to respec, you could essentially do everything you wanted to do in 1 playthrough, gameplay/combat wise. not a fan of that, and pretty much why i've never replayed an elder scroll game which allowed the player to become an all powerful jack-of-all trades

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actually, no, that isn't at all analogous.  allow everybody in our hypothetical pnp group but Bob to respec?

In your hypothetical, Bob isn't respeccing, his character is. Which is a rather important distinction, considering that PoE is a party based game where the player is controlling up to 6 characters at once.

 

But your point (And Voss' point) is well taken. PoE is built upon the mechanic that there is a "Main" character. Therefore it's silly to cite PnP as any sort of analogy for that. But hey, lets not let faulty hypotheticals get in the way of our defense of stupid modern game features.

 

actually, we already showed how complete illusory were your distinction between re-rolling and respecing. 

 

"respec and play from same place in the campaign.
 
"v.
 
"retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.
 
"pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid."
 
recall now?
 
oh, and note that pnp is not same as crpg is also funny since we already did so.  your selective amnesia is becoming amusing.  that there is no live gm to create house rules for a crpg.  is no live gm to tailor encounters to accommodate a broken character. and *sigh* there is no live gm that allows us to re-roll and re-level and re-gear a new character and re-enter the campaign seamlessly.  all o' which is very good reasons for adding respec.
 
you up to speed?
 
HA! Good Fun!
Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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"respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

"v.

 

"retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

"pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid."

But there's a gigantic difference, especially in a game like PoE, where your character is "the chosen one", where your Biography is filled out and tracked based on every choice you make; and where there will probably be quests and NPCs that react to you based on your class. To replace your character with a different one halfway through would break the narrative.

 

Again, stop defending stupid modern game safety-net mechanics.

 

 

no live gm to tailor encounters to accommodate a broken character.

A distinction without a point. There will be no broken characters in PoE. And the game already gives you difficulty settings in case you manage to build a weak character. So, what's your point? Oh yeah, I forgot who I'm talking to. You don't have one. Edited by Stun
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We have the console - that'll fix a bunch of overlooked problems (hopefully) including the 'bad build' one.  There's already a character editor for the beta - won't be long before there's one for the full game.  Obsidian doesn't need to waste resources adding one into game (especially the 'respec side-quest' option, which resources would be better served adding a good side-quest to the expansion that we can all enjoy).

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as a gm/dm, if we see Bob gots serious screwed 'cuse o' his character development choices, we ain't gonna twist him up and force him to keep playing a broken character 'cause o' some kinda misplaced notions o' fairness and responsibility.

I agree. In that scenario we'll give Bob the option to retire his character and play a different one.

 

We won't, for example, suddenly break the campaign by having the Gods/genie-in-a-bottle/Ring of 10 wishes, drop down from the sky and morph his badly built character into something new and improved, because that would be stupid.

 

In PnP this isn't a problem at all IMO. As the GM I can always adjust the game to fit the party. In my 30 years or so of GM-ing, I don't think any of my players have ever been in a situation where they'd want a respec. It has happened that they're unhappy with their characters for any of a number of reasons and ended up rolling a new one, but none of those reasons would have been solved with a respec.

 

I have, however, been known to relax the rules sometimes e.g. with regards to things like feat progression or prestige class requirements. We call these "house rules." I'm generally not a rules Nazi type GM.

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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"respec and play from same place in the campaign.

 

"v.

 

"retire old character and re-create a character o' the same level who joins the campaign seamlessly at next town or wherever dm chooses.

 

"pretend that there is a difference is silly... stoopid."

But there's a gigantic difference, especially in a game like PoE, where your character is "the chosen one", where your Biography is filled out and tracked based on every choice you make; and where there will probably be quests and NPCs that react to you based on your class. To replace your character with a different one halfway through would break the narrative.

 

Again, stop defending stupid modern game safety-net mechanics.

 

 

no live gm to tailor encounters to accommodate a broken character.

A distinction without a point. There will be no broken characters in PoE. And the game already gives you difficulty settings in case you manage to build a weak character. So, what's your point? Oh yeah, I forgot who I'm talking to. You don't have one.

 

...

 

is bizarre. we keep observing that pnp and crpg is different. yes, the inflexibility o' crpg storytelling and the lack o' a living gm/dm precludes re-rolling a new character as a viable solution to broken characters in poe, which is why we ask for respec.  duh.  once again, crpgs and pnp is different, which is why the solutions, while achieving the same thing (a new character build) is different. am baffled by the lack o' comprehension.

 

and we needs laugh at your belief that there will be no broken characters.  is this the first crpg you ever have played?  between bugs and poorly written talents and ability descriptions and simple mistakes by player, many folks will get deep into the game and realize their careful crafted role-play choices were rendered meaningless. 

 

and we similarly chuckle at pj,  the guy who, if we recall correct, wanted to bet money that the poe release date would not go past 2014 'cause he were also an expert on software development?  got 30 years experience in that field too? *shrug* am suspecting pj ain't played many new pnp rules systems in his 30 years.  sure, as we noted above, we use house rules and tailored encounters to deal with most broken character situations, but is more than a few rules systems, particularly new ones, that has led to woeful broken characters, AND there is no live gm in poe to tailor encounters and create house rules... which were our point. 

 

what is with you folks?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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and we needs laugh at your belief that there will be no broken characters.  is this the first crpg you ever have played?  between bugs and poorly written talents and ability descriptions and simple mistakes by player, many folks will get deep into the game and realize their careful crafted role-play choices were rendered meaningless.

Such cynicism!

 

I suspect your definition of "broken" is: I have 18 resolve, how come I'm not interrupting stone beetles exactly 45% of the time like the stats say! This game is BROKEN! I demand a RESPEC FEATURE!

 

By the way, your whole "the game will be broke, therefore a respec feature is needed" smacks of absurd short sightedness, and a whole lot of blind assumption. First, what makes you think a developer who releases a game with broken mechanics will be able to give us flawless respeccing? And second, what happens a year from now when the devs have fixed these mechanics? Do they suddenly remove the respec feature? Or do they leave it in so that those poor casual modern gamers don't have to worry about those harsh, hardcore RPG things..... like tough character creation choices?

Edited by Stun
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