Backer Beta Build 435 is Live!

[Sensuki]

Auras are not pre-buffs, they are auras.

[ushas]

Thanks for the beta and info!

How should we proceed for these "NEEDS VERIFICATION" points?
Post here; Post individual bug reports in Bugs and Support subforum in case it's not working; Or make there one global "NEEDS VERIFICATION v435" thread, where anybody who can, will verify the points?...

[ushas]

 

Seems like a pretty nice build

 

But I agree that "Combat only" is a terrible concept that has no place in this game.

"Combat only" prevents one of the more glaring problems that existed in the IE games... Pre-buffing. Which besides being exasperating caused all sorts of balancing issues. Pre-buff parties were magnitudes more powerful than parties who went in unbuffed.

 

That being said, don't see any reason for modal abilities to be combat only.  

 

 

Wanted to ask too, why so strict combat non-combat distinction, when there is no visible change of the game flow (eg. as in case of switching to turn-based combat)...

 

I hope the pre-buffing issue is not the only reason. Because that would seem to me as an exaggerated precaution. For example, like a situation where the government finds out, that the terrorist who blew out a train was an immigrant -> so logically decide to proceed by completely closing all borders...

[BAdler]

Thanks for the beta and info!

 

How should we proceed for these "NEEDS VERIFICATION" points?

Post here; Post individual bug reports in Bugs and Support subforum in case it's not working; Or make there one global "NEEDS VERIFICATION v435" thread, where anybody who can, will verify the points?...

NEEDS VERIFICATION just means that the developer has submitted a fix, but QA hasn't run a regression on the issue yet. So it is most likely fixed, but it is possible it could still fail regression.

[BAdler]

Linux and Mac should now be on 435. Let me know if you guys see any problem with those OSes.

[Ashen Rohk]

Cheers BAdler!

 

I remember you saying - this is likely to be the final version until the game comes out?

[BAdler]

 Possibly. I still think we could put one more out in a few weeks.

[Sensuki]

Post CPU/GPU Optimization pls ^_^

[Luckmann]

 

Seems like a pretty nice build

 

But I agree that "Combat only" is a terrible concept that has no place in this game.

 

"Combat only" prevents one of the more glaring problems that existed in the IE games... Pre-buffing. Which besides being exasperating caused all sorts of balancing issues. Pre-buff parties were magnitudes more powerful than parties who went in unbuffed.

 

That being said, don't see any reason for modal abilities to be combat only.

 

 

You're expending your per-day uses of spells (or abilities) that usually last a very short time. "Combat Only"-abilities does in no way, fashion, shape or form solve the "glaring problem" (sic!) of pre-buffing, because pre-buffing is already not a "problem" in PoE.

 

Furthermore, this does not explain why so many classes are unable to initiate combat with an offensive ability, which they absolutely should be able to do, including the rogue being unable to gain the bonus from Reckless Assault, mechanical areas that have nothing to do with pre-buffing.

 

The "Combat Only" mechanics are a steaming load of horse**** that forces the player to fight the system in order to do things that are absolutely and completely reasonable to do, and something you'd expect to be able to do based on the entire genre. At least the Engagement system has a small amount of merit and arguably makes a small amount of sense (however small those points may be). But "Combat Only" abilities - especially when it comes to modals and particularly auras - is complete and utter insanity.

 

I really have no idea what they are thinking. It really is gamebreaking. It's not even one of those things in a game that you can offhandedly ignore, it's the worst kind of flaw, the kind that just sits there like a thorn in your side and constantly interferes with what you're trying to do, making you roll your eyes, sigh, and occasionally swear. I just can't wrap my head around what.. I just.. I want to tear out my hair and swear profusely and damn whomever came up with this to the point where I know I'd get banned.

 

Because holy **** I can't get over how annoying this is and how much it wants me to take the game and hurl it into the wall for making no sense whatsoever on this.

 

Linux and Mac should now be on 435. Let me know if you guys see any problem with those OSes.

Any chance at all for a hotfix of the Interrupt issue(s)? You won't be able to get any relevant feedback on the attribute changes at all, without it. The changes to the Attributes is one of the major changes, and one of the major changes to the Attribute System deals directly with Interrupt.

 

Just saying.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Luckmann

[gnoemli]

tested the new build for 10 minutes on Linux (Macbook air, mid. 2012, linux Mint) and works and plays like a charm.

 

@Luckmann: I'm completely on your side. the decision of "combat only"- ability does neither make sense from a strategic point of view nor in regard of PnP feeling or "getting the feel of BG1/2 or IWD1/2"... quiet sad how it takes away so much role-play freedom... for me one of the decisions i least understand...

[Lephys]

Regarding the combat-only thing, I think it's way too heavy-handed. I get what they're going for, and I don't think it's a bad thing to get rid of "Let's cast protection from 30 things and Be Really Awesome At Stuff +5 on everyone for the next 10 hours" and jogging around with that stuff on. BUT, they could've just made it pointless to try and stack so much stuff prior to combat simply by using short-duration buffs. If the longest-lasting buff is a minute, for example (before anyone jumps on me for saying the longest-lasting buff should be 1 minute, and then the game would be perfect), then, by the time you cast like 5 buffs, you've only got half your longest remaining buff left. Meaning others would only have 20 seconds left, maybe. Then, let the player waste as many buffs as they'd like. I mean, if you think it's worth it to stack 5 things just to get 10 seconds of effects out of 30-second buffs, then, by all means, go for it. Stack to your heart's content. But the game isn't preventing you from doing it. It's just not making it very prudent to do so.

 

The only "problem with pre-buffing" is that ridiculously long-term effects can be kind of uninteresting in a way, especially the more of them you're able to stack while you jog around, before you're actually dealing with a combat encounter. Now, even that being said, it's not TOTALLY just-plain bad to be able to have long-term effects. But, it's understandable why some people don't want the way you play a game to just be "make sure we take advantage of meta-knowledge here to go from instantly-annihilated to impervious-to-harm for this next fight." It doesn't really need to be possible to do that, and having shorter-term stuff brings something to the table.

 

But, the bottom line... requiring a combat state to already be achieved before any abilities can be used (ESPECIALLY offensive ones, and things like auras) is producing a lot more negative side effects than just being able to stack pre-buffs all day ever did.

 

Anywho, I look forward to actually playing this build a bit. Haven't had the time to try out the recent ones for the last month and a half.

[drunetovich]

Playing some more got me really annoyed with modals recast animation, characters waste precious first combat seconds jerking in place instead of running to assigned positions. I think I will avoid picking up modals at all, better to stick with passives.

[Shevek]

They need to rethink this combat only business. If I want to turn on an aura or charm a monster or whatever outside of combat, I should be able to do that. Let the player be a sneaky bastard and get the drop on monsters. I can respect short buff durations but this combat only flag seems like a mistake.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Shevek

[Leferd]

They need to rethink this combat only business. If I want to turn on an aura or charm a monster or whatever outside of combat, I should be able to do that. Let the player be a sneaky bastard and get the drop on monsters. I can respect short buff durations but this combat only flag seems like a mistake.

Adding my voice to the mob re: combat-only.

[Bazy]

They need to rethink this combat only business. If I want to turn on an aura or charm a monster or whatever outside of combat, I should be able to do that. Let the player be a sneaky bastard and get the drop on monsters. I can respect short buff durations but this combat only flag seems like a mistake.

What are you talking about? You can already do all that. 

 

The only things that are combat only are buff/heal/conjure. All my aura's are turned on out of combat and have the stats applied out of combat

 

Druid For example:

Level 1:  1/9 out of combat (The heal spell)

Charm Beast       Sunbeam

Dancing Bolts      Talon's Reach

Nature's Mark      Tanglefoot

Nature's Vigor    Vile Thorns

Winter Wind 

 

Level 2: 3/9 (Weapon conjure/Summoning, and Damage Reduction buff)

Autumns Decay                 Hold Beast

Blizzard                              Insect Swarm

Burst of Summer Flame    Taste of the Hunt

Conjure Lesser Blight    Woodskin

Firebrand

 

Class/Talents: 1/2

Envenomed Strike

Shapeshift 

Edited February 5, 2015 by Bazy

[Nakia]

I am inclined to agree with Bazy.  It may be toolate to change the game now but hopefully OE will rethink it for a patch, DLC or the Expansion.  I personally am also not happy with the fact that there is no way to heal health without resting.  If one party member is low in health it means you need to rest.  Surely at least some health could be recovered via potions, triage, some way.

[Bazy]

I personally am also not happy with the fact that there is no way to heal health without resting.  If one party member is low in health it means you need to rest.  Surely at least some health could be recovered via potions, triage, some way.

There are 2 utility talents that do this. 

 

Wound Binding: 80 ish health on user

Field Triage: 40 ish health on party member

 

So theoretically you could have 720 Health restore per rest across your party or 320 focus on a single character. 

 

These values are adjusted by Might and Intelligence.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Bazy

[Shevek]

Everything should work out of combat. There are several key modals and abilities that do not. Whether or not these abilities are in the minority is irrelevant.

[Clean&Clear]

Combat only topic:

Let's make a separate thread about this. It's quite an easy to implement change (I guess) with a huge impact on gameplay, so it's worthwhile to try and advocate changing this before release. Or at least in a patch.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Clean&Clear

[Luckmann]

Combat only topic:

Let's make a separate thread about this. It's quite an easy to implement change (I guess) with a huge impact on gameplay, so it's worthwhile to try and advocate changing this before release. Or at least in a patch.

 

It's extremely fast to do. If it doesn't make release, it'll never be changed, because it'd muck with the key mechanics and base assumptions that you usually don't want to change post-release.

 

As far as changing it goes, it takes, like, 10 minutes. It's easy to do through a mod, but at that point, it's pretty much just cheating, and it may end up screwing with things down the line. If it's not changed by release, it's because they don't want to change it, for some unfathomable reason.

[AndreaColombo]

Clean&Clear—If you open a thread dedicated to the subject I'll chime in to support the removal of "combat only".

[Bazy]

Everything should work out of combat. There are several key modals and abilities that do not. Whether or not these abilities are in the minority is irrelevant.

The only one I know of is the pally aura. 

 

I do agree that everything should work out of combat. I see the reasoning for it (pre-buff cheesing) but I really don't like restrictions on player choice.

[BlueLion]

My thinking is they restrict it to force you to use 'food' etc for pre-buffing. I'm inclined to agree the majority here and say let everything be usable out of combat. Personally, I wouldn't use anything combat related out of combat but atleast that would be my choice.

[Luckmann]

It's just not that beneficial to buff outside of combat in PoE anyway. Even under the best of circumstances, it gives you a momentary boost while eating up the same amount of Per Day abilities anyway, at the added cost of expending the time of your quite limited buffs. There is simply no reason for "Combat Only" to exist in regards to buffing, it's a non-argument.

The only real argument I've seen so far (not raised in this thread) is that the Cipher supposedly has/had a power (the name escapes me at the moment) that charmed enemies, and it could be abused in such a way that the Cipher initiated combat by charming an opponent, and then the other opponents swarmed it and ignored the Cipher, so the Cipher could just stand there well away from the others and laugh, using enemies to tank eachother from the get-go.

But if that's the argument brought forth, I'd like to ask why the hell they don't make the AI smarter than that. They should aggro you from beyond the fog of war and hesitate to hit their own people to begin with. The average opponent's propensity for violence against one of their own that had been charmed always struck me as hilarious(ly bad) in the IE games already, so fix that quick-like, instead.

[Adam Brennecke]

Most of the issues with the combat only flag is restoring the game state after a save/load is performed. As you probably have noticed, we've had a fair share of issues with save/load over the course of the Backer Beta. Since you can't save in combat, we don't need to restore combat only abilities after a load. There are a few balance reasons, but most of those are minor compared to the save issues. We are going to evaluate combat only stuff moving forward (Paladin auras have been discussed), but I can't promise any changes right now.