Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[LadyCrimson]

Start of previous thread

End of previous thread

 

Last couple posts etc.

 

 

 

Funny enough I can understand why people would object to certain changes like a female Thor. Thor is an iconic character that many of us grew up on so its quite reasonable for someone to feel uncomfortable about something we identify with

 

Why not create a new female character similar to Thor instead of changing the original?

 

And before someone points it out .." no this isn't the same as a suggestion that people who want more inclusivity in games should create there own games"

 

"do you feel that there is a covert and orchestrated campaign from some circles to attack and discriminate against white males in modern society"

 

\Yes. If you think otherwise you are insane and aren't even paying attention to your very own rhetoric.

 

 

\"What's wrong with black Annie?"\

 

Niothing wrong with a black Annie. In fact, the new movie looks like it can be fun. The problem here is the reason why a black Annie was chosen? Was it chosen because the actress/actors would work or was it to push some sort of agenda? Then again, it's a remake, so most people will hate on it just because. Not me though. Looks solid.

 

 

 

"Why not create a new female character similar to Thor instead of changing the original?"

 

Yup. True for lots of stuff. Like the idea there should be a black version of Bond. Why can't there just be a movie series started about a black spy? Heck, aren't there movies with exactly that? Why Bond? It's pure pure PC anti white agenda. I even like the idea of the black actor to play him. He's pretty good but why not just have him start his own spy franchise....

\

\I know why. SJWs are evil bigoted, hateful garbage. I still have yet to receive an explanation why Bruce feels its okay for him to mansplain to my neice why she isn't allowed to play a game she enjoys. It's been like a month now. L0L

[Longknife]

Hi everybody

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Hi everybody

Hi Dr.Nick!

[Orogun01]

"I don't support censorship unless its really warranted, like a group of people on a forum just verbally abusing someone because they are a minority

 

I want to ask you something before I respond, do you feel that there is a covert and  orchestrated campaign from some circles to attack and discriminate against white males in modern society

 

Before you answer what would be reason for this, for example Neo-Nazis aren't suppose to like blacks and jews because they are inferior to white males but "control " certain sectors of society

 

So if we as white males are the victims of bigotry  from certain groups like rad fems what would be the reason?

 

I just think certain people dislike males..not just white males ?"

I don't feel that there is a covert campaign, Is that there is an overt campaign against them. But just like every baddie in History no one goes advertising that they are baddies, otherwise Hitler's "Final Solution" would have been called "The Super Evil plan to kill all Jews". 
SJWs and fringe feminist go against what they perceive to be a hostile value system by creating one that is hostile to whom they perceive to be the major aggressors (White Cis Males).
Your neo-nazi example is pointless since affirmative action forces employers to fill diversity quotas, and it is moot because two wrongs don't make a right.

The anti-white sentiment seems to be closely associated with white guilt and has come out from academia where liberal professors openly promote anti white ideas.

and for contrast

whitegenocideproject.com/us-splc-harrass-teacher-hes-under-investigation-for-his-beliefs/

 

Tenure aside it is pretty ****ed up that teachers can get away with racism just because is against whites.

Yes, there are some racial, sexist tensions within the SJWs that run the gamut from just hating white males to all males or to all whites regardless of gender. Even seen conversations where PoC deny a white woman's possibility of sexual trauma because of her race.

Bruce, how often do you talk to these people and where? Cause I get the feeling that we have two completely opposite views of what an SJW is.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2014/12/30/gamergate-political-attitudes-part-two-old-liberals-vs-new-progressives Edited December 30, 2014 by KaineParker

[Meshugger]

Has this been posted? https://8chan.co/gamergate/res/149585.html

 

They seem to be serious about it. //edit: Godspeed, you glorious bastards

Edited December 30, 2014 by Meshugger

[Namutree]

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2014/12/30/gamergate-political-attitudes-part-two-old-liberals-vs-new-progressives

That's about what I thought already. Good read anyway.

[Blarghagh]

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2014/12/30/gamergate-political-attitudes-part-two-old-liberals-vs-new-progressives

 

This is what I've been saying all along!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Has this been posted? https://8chan.co/gamergate/res/149585.html

 

They seem to be serious about it. //edit: Godspeed, you glorious bastards

It's been talked about on infinitechan and KiA, and some are doing it. Not sure if it's going anywhere, but will be interesting to see.

 

 

 

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2014/12/30/gamergate-political-attitudes-part-two-old-liberals-vs-new-progressives

 

That's about what I thought already. Good read anyway.

 

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2014/12/30/gamergate-political-attitudes-part-two-old-liberals-vs-new-progressives

 

This is what I've been saying all along!

Yeah, I hope this starts some conversation on differences on the Authoritarian/Libertarian axis instead of just making everything a Left vs. Right conflict. As someone who leans left on economic issues, I've felt increasingly alienated by a Left-wing that seems increasingly authoritarian and prone to postmodernist idiocy. Edited December 31, 2014 by KaineParker

[Keyrock]

Part 2

 

[Tale]

And now GamerGate is doxxing Chrus Kluwe. Currently attempting to dig up private information on his parents.

 

Real classy.

https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/550172890860380161

 

Though I also like how ya'll are reporting a non-journalist to the IRS just on the vain hope they find something because you haven't. Also totally in line with your stated goals of "ethics in journalism" and not what everyone perceives your goals to be of "finding any possible avenue of attack on those speaking against harassment."

 

And still stalking Zoe Quinn, too, it seems. Despite her not being a journalist either. I'd post the redacted jpgs where they discuss finding her hidden livejournal and are pouring over it, but they didn't redact all the inappropriate language.

[Blarghagh]

"Y'all"? Well, since you seem intent on on blaming the people here for other people's comments on another board about the parents of someone of whom I haven't even gotten the faintest clue who it is because they are supposedly on our "side" (because using a hashtag to talk about a subject certainly is a unifying factor to turn a diverse group into being represented by single people), I'm going to peg you as the other side and blame you for supporting the guy harassing a female #GamerGater by printing out her pictures, ejaculating on them, and then uploading photos of that to tweet at her. Also, you must be one of the people who have been sending the police to the founder of #NotYourShield's house by calling in and saying he's suicidal and trying to kill himself. Real hero, you are.

 

Seriously. Every single time you've stepped into this thread you seem to have nothing but just random attacks on everyone for the actions of others. I generally like you Tale, but it's honestly getting really, really dumb and annoying. From now on, every time you do it I'm going to blame you for some jerk who did something nasty against a #GamerGater and demand you distance yourself from the opposition or be branded a harasser by association. Next thing in line that I'm going to blame you for when you decide to paint in broad strokes again is the guy who spammed child porn on 8chan (to "test the mods") and then spread screencaps of it on Twitter saying "look at all this child porn on this pro-GG board", so look forward to that.

 

As for reporting FemFreq to the IRS, not going to defend that. Some people just respond badly to people who have put themselves in the spotlight. No idea what the point of it is since attacking FemFreq just increases their martyr complex.   I guess jerks are entrenched on both sides and prefer attacking the other side over being smart or contructive. I'd say "GG should ignore FemFreq" but seeing as both of FemFreq's writers are consistently engaging with and talking about #GamerGate to the point that their GamerGate related content now doubly outnumbers their feminist frequency related content, I'd say my patience with them has worn thin even as someone who has never really taken issue with them. If you keep poking a stick into the beehive, you don't get to feign surprise if they keep coming out to sting you, #GamerGate has literally ballooned FemFreq's profile and obviously they want it to continue. Same thing for Zoe Quinn, judging by the fact that she has written article after article about it the subject. Without #GG, nobody would even know who she is and obviously why would someone go back to that? Boohoo, victim blaming.

 

To be fair, I've been inactive in #GamerGate except for sending e-mails to advertisers and developers because I and so many other people are getting fed up with the dumb ****s in #GG, but I guess that's what you get if two sides clash and only the dumb ****s have the patience to keep engaging with each other. I just ignore the warfare now and just focus on being constructive. I suppose you could do the same, but you'd rather come in here and try to shame us for things we have no involvement in other than gee, they also claim "I support ethics in games journalism". It's kinda like being blamed for killing someone because the killer said "I like milk" and you also like milk.

 

/Frustration

Edited December 31, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Malcador]

And now GamerGate is doxxing Chrus Kluwe. Currently attempting to dig up private information on his parents.

 

Real classy.

https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/550172890860380161

 

Though I also like how ya'll are reporting a non-journalist to the IRS just on the vain hope they find something because you haven't. Also totally in line with your stated goals of "ethics in journalism" and not what everyone perceives your goals to be of "finding any possible avenue of attack on those speaking against harassment."

 

And still stalking Zoe Quinn, too, it seems. Despite her not being a journalist either. I'd post the redacted jpgs where they discuss finding her hidden livejournal and are pouring over it, but they didn't redact all the inappropriate language.

Happens when you fight with trolls, big deal. Kluwe is a Hard Man though so I doubt he cares much. Odd how people care about Quinn still (well other than freaks like Chu) but she seems like a punching bag with good returns.

 

Odd though how posting anything is taken as a serious plan. People BSing isn't outside realm of possibility.

 

So who exactly are you accusing of things here?

Edited December 31, 2014 by Malcador

[HoonDing]

Happy New Year.

[Tale]

I didn't say "ya'll" were involved in the doxxing. I only used "ya'll" for the reporting of Sarkeesian to the IRS. Something that is being adovcated for in this thread, or at least given positive attention. I probably should have changed pronouns instead of just said "and" on the Zoe Quinn.

 

GamerGate is doxxing Chris Kluwe. GamerGate is digging through Zoe Quinn's Livejournal from when she was a teenager. I'm kind of taking a piss at your defense from previous posts about "stated goals," because it's abundantly clear that GamerGate is detached from its stated goals. As evidenced by the actions of GamerGate and often times the actions of people within this thread. Last time I was here I did call out someone for e-celeb drama, yeah. Because he was engaging in e-celeb drama.

 

These are the actions of the movement GamerGate and they are oft sickening and disturbing. And everytime I come in this thread I kind of have a vain hope that you guys will be as ashamed of this stuff as everyone else is. The actions of GamerGate in attacking people are far worse crimes than the things GamerGate is supposedly standing against. Just seeing you say "that **** is terrible and I wish it would stop" would have meant so much to me.

 

This stuff can not be ignored and swept under the rug. And if GamerGate's supporters aren't willing to call it out, then everyone else has to.

 

 

But there is a bit of an edge of hostility in me. I'm scared of you guys and I'm scared of this thread. That's part of why I don't really engage except to pop in and out. But each time I pop in I'm not seeing positive things. I would have loved that, it would have really turned me around. But the first thing I always see is someone supporting some of the worst elements of the movement. Someone advocating for the attacking of its enemies, regardless of reason or justification, or "stated goals."

 

And when you're not part of that safe in-group that GamerGate won't call to attack, it's sometimes terrifying. I know I'm not really up to be targeted, I'm not that important, but that doesn't mean people I know aren't. That doesn't mean that people who are a part of this community aren't. That doesn't mean that Obsidian couldn't be eyed next. I fear every time I see this thread that maybe since I last looked that Sawyer (didn't he support the Feminist Frequency kickstarter?) or Avellone could have spoken out against the harassment and been put into sights as a result. And when I come into this thread I fear what I'll find. Maybe it'll be a few of you continuing the insipid "culture war" oblivious, but maybe it'll be a few others saying "hey, look what I found on KiA, they're talking about Obsidian and..." And the thought of where that goes scares me.

 

Because that is what GamerGate is engendering in not just its worst moments, but even its supposed best. The e-mails to advertisers were about trying to shut people up with opinions that some people didn't like, it was about trying to threaten jobs to censor speech.

[Malcador]

Well for the last part, I don't see why it's ok for people to crusade to get people like Eich fired or dispose of Sterling or otherwise hound people that fund people they don't like but not ok for GG people to try to get Kuchera or whomever the sack.  Lobbying and all, it's a legitimate tactic and a cudgel consumers wield (only one we have I suppose).     

 

But, indeed, be afraid for GG are like the SA/SS (people actually argue this, heh), soon they will come for $different_party and...uh...flame them or something.  Still waiting on word of this 'terrible' human cost GG has inflicted, seem pretty annoying more than anything else.  Kluwe and Quinn have decided to get stuck in with GG , in the former's case I am not sure who he is but he's more or less waded into this so he has to catch as well as dish. So I still see this as entertaining flame wars waged in the echo chambers of Twitter - it's not against a change in industry, really, as it's beating up low-talent nobodies (Wu ? Quinn ? Frank ? Alexander ?) rather than anyone of significance in the industry.  Though I suppose "journalists" jerking it over the Art of some indie game might give significance.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sjjj4k

 

David Auerbach makes a similar point to what Erik Kain's been saying about gg.

[Keyrock]

Kluwe and Quinn have decided to get stuck in with GG , in the former's case I am not sure who he is but he's more or less waded into this so he has to catch as well as dish.

Chris Kluwe is a former NFL punter for the Minnesota Vikings. He has a history of being an antagonizing figure and of portraying himself as a victim, both during his playing days, after he lost his job (which he suggested was because of his advocacy for same sex marriage) and now in other avenues. I'm not saying his portrayals of him being a victim were necessarily incorrect (I never cared enough to look into it), I'm just giving you his background.

[Blarghagh]

Tale, the thing is, it's the same way from the inside. I'm extremely careful with how or what I tweet because if my real name gets connected to #GamerGate, my career is essentially over. Many women developers agreed to appear on BroPill YouTube videos, not even to support #GamerGate but solely to talk about the merits of the claim that the game industry is somehow misogynist... with vocoders and in silhouette, because they feared the backlash so much. Pro-#GG developers appearing on interviews on The Escapist or TechRaptor tend to be anonymous, followed up with a statement from the journalists that they have verified their identities. I've seen a bit of similar fear culture in those against #GamerGate, but it's not even close.

 

You fear for Obsidian? Obsidian has already been unfairly targeted by FemFreq before when they had zero clout ("New Vegas encourages you to kill more women than men") and now FemFreq has an army of violent yes-men to harass and doxx anyone who disagrees with them. The core mechanic of PoE, Obsidian's baby, is interesting combat. Have you seen what FemFreq's writer Jonathan McIntosh had to say about games with combat? There's no reason to assume this doesn't extend to Obsidian. And those journalists aren't people "whose opinions we don't like", they are journalists who have injected supposed culture criticism where consumer advocacy should have been, lowering grades for games because of objectionable content while claiming their scoring categories are "gameplay" and "graphics" while at the same time promoting people far too close to them for there not to be conflict of interest (and I'm not even talking about Quinn, I'm talking about promoting the games of people they lived with). And this is a group whose behaviour has already cost many an Obsidianite their jobs after the whole Metacritic scoring debable because they control the scores, and some of their behaviour suggests that they can control the scores together. How does #GamerGate have a bigger impact on Obsidian than #GamerGate's detractors have? #GamerGate could send you nasty e-mails and publish your adress, it's detractors can destroy your career and your future forever.

 

How about the accounts of developers such as six days in fallujah or the planned serious holocaust game that never came to fruition because the media attacked them and made sure those "serious subjects could never be used for entertainment" as media watch dogs? We're culture critics because games are art now, but they cannot explore any serious subjects. If Obsidian wanted to make a dark game, I wonder how much dark themes they would be forced to leave out because they are simply "out of bounds". I feel for their possibility to get targeted over saying the wrong thing regarding #GamerGate (in fact, I believe I said in the earlier thread that they're probably better off not acknowledging it at all), but that is probably going to happen whether they speak against it or for it and in the meanwhile everyone is walking on eggshells simply because you can't say anything without some side yelling "bigot" or "corruption".

 

Hell, I'm actually completely and absolutely fine with culture criticism of games, but I just want disclosure and transparency about when something is promotional, culture criticism or consumer advocacy and personally I'm getting very, very tired of being accused of being in league with harassers over reasonable concerns just because those harassers are blabbering nonsense about the same thing. Hell, I'll even welcome FemFreq's input (and in fact I have because while some of their claims are bunk, others are true), but the problem is that the journalists who claim "we're culture critics now" are just regurgitating her non-peer reviewed or sourced "research" as fact. It's why I said they injected "supposed" culture criticism, because really they have no bloody idea that really is.

 

As for not saying "gee, that's terrible" I think that's more a problem with you only popping in occassionally. It comes up quite a lot. The problem is when "gee that's terrible" comes up it's usually in the guise of "of course that's terrible, it goes without saying, stop trying to pretend I support it" because it does go without saying. It's why every single post in this thread doesn't have "remember kids, rape threats are bad, the more you know ABC" addended to it. The treatment of Zoe Quinn is pretty deplorable and inexcusable despite the fact that I disagree with her on a lot of things she's said in the context of GG, but I'm not obligated to be constantly condemning it when it's not really relevant to anything I am doing. Like I tried to point out, if I get to be held responsible for these things because I tweet with a hashtag about supporting ethics in game journalism then you get to be held responsible for those who claim gamergate is terrible similarely because you post about how terrible gamergate is in message board threads. There is literally no difference. I'm not constantly hounding you in this thread to denounce the constant harassment and false allegations against Brad Wardell and Daniel Vavra by #GamerGate detractors, am I? I made such claims in my last post, but they were obviously sarcastic. I don't hold you responsible for them at all. There is no use to it, we're in iteration 8 or such of this thread? And we can keep wasting our time talking about how bad things we have no control over are if you want but we've been over this so many times that instead of being really outraged at another instance of abuse (on either side) we just get tired and irritated and jaded about it (such as in the last thread, when the response to the harassment of Liz was mostly just "sigh, well that sucks").

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

For the New Year, can we stop blaming a group for the actions of individuals?

 

I don't see how I'm responsible for every Leader on 8chan(a site I visit rarely) or any individual with a twitter account when I don't actively use either and rarely go to those places if not pointed. I don't think anyone should be doxxed or harassed, even people I don't particularly care for such as Kluwe or Cernovich and will report it if able. This doesn't mean not calling them out for things they've done, but there is a difference between calling out AS's warped views on racism and sexism or intellectual dishonesty in videos and spamming her twitter with expletives or dumping her address.

[Meshugger]

And now GamerGate is doxxing Chrus Kluwe. Currently attempting to dig up private information on his parents.

 

Real classy.

https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/550172890860380161

 

Though I also like how ya'll are reporting a non-journalist to the IRS just on the vain hope they find something because you haven't. Also totally in line with your stated goals of "ethics in journalism" and not what everyone perceives your goals to be of "finding any possible avenue of attack on those speaking against harassment."

 

And still stalking Zoe Quinn, too, it seems. Despite her not being a journalist either. I'd post the redacted jpgs where they discuss finding her hidden livejournal and are pouring over it, but they didn't redact all the inappropriate language.

 

Unless you just skimmed the thread, you would quickly notice that I posted the link to the 8chan thread about inquiring the IRS and wishing them godspeed. I wish to see some dirt on FemFreq as I see her as a con-artist that needs to be exposed, as I would never have cared about before she tried to blame GG for everything that is wrong in this world. So if you wish throw judgement on this action, then throw it at ME and stop throwing blame over others, like True Neutral, KaineParker, Malcador and so on. 

 

Frankly, your argument reeks of passive aggressiveness that i find despicable.

 

As for Kluwe and others, no should be doxxed or harrassed. Period.

[Volourn]

"And now GamerGate is doxxing Chrus Kluwe."

 

Kluwe doxxed himself. He's a former NFLer who was in the public eye well before Gamergate.

 

Big deal about doxxiing. I have doxxed myself in the past. Not a biggie.

 

Unwanted doxxing is lame and only wussies go out of their way to do it yet you continually defend doxxing of GGers. Why is that?

 

besdies, isn't anti GGers the tools who want the internet not to me anonymous and have everyone be forced to post with their real names?

 

 

On top of that, yeah there are scumbags on GGer's side.  They're pieces of crap. They are a lot more idiots and scumbags on anti GG's side. These are the people who  attack women specifically because they are women,. These are the people who dox others repeatedly. they rape, they murder, they kill, they assassinate, they enslave, they manspalin, they they threaten. Yet, these are nazis you repeatedly defend. WHY? Why do you defend nazis?

 

You anti GGers also ignore repeatedly  the anti GG evil brigade. You didn't even actually reply to the person who answerred to you.

 

Same as Bruce who hasn't yet stated why he feels he has the right to mansplain to my neice and how he has the right to ban her from playing a game she enjoys. That's evil and cowardly and sexist. A man telling a woman what she can and cannot do. HOW IS THAT ACCEPTABLE!?!

Edited December 31, 2014 by Volourn

[licketysplit]

And now GamerGate is doxxing Chrus Kluwe. Currently attempting to dig up private information on his parents.

 

Real classy.

https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/550172890860380161

 

Though I also like how ya'll are reporting a non-journalist to the IRS just on the vain hope they find something because you haven't. Also totally in line with your stated goals of "ethics in journalism" and not what everyone perceives your goals to be of "finding any possible avenue of attack on those speaking against harassment."

 

And still stalking Zoe Quinn, too, it seems. Despite her not being a journalist either. I'd post the redacted jpgs where they discuss finding her hidden livejournal and are pouring over it, but they didn't redact all the inappropriate language.

Because we all know Quinn and Kluwe are a couple of saints. Seriously dude, look up some of the **** Zoe has done to other people. She's a terrible person.

Edited December 31, 2014 by licketysplit

[Nonek]

Oh have I been sleep harassing again? It must be a terrible affliction that I have no memory of it at all, I wonder at my sleepwalking self having the ability to create twitter accounts and doxx people whom I don't know and have had no previous contact with, quite impressive really for the subconscious mind.

[Longknife]

While the news of harassment from GGers is unfortunate (especially since we've gone so long since another major harassment or doxxing case like that), the idea that "GGers did something ****ty, therefore the entire movement is ****" is a logical fallacy.

 

Don't believe me? I believe McIntosh and Anita are fond of speeches about how racist it is to profile Muslims based on a couple terrorists. Same exact logic here. Hell, same exact logic everywhere. There are horrible Christians, horrible people from anti-GG equally as guilty of harassment, horrible Muslims, horrible everything. Pointing at the worst-case-scenario examples and claiming that it's the face of a movement is hardly fair, objective or accurate. And we're all guilty of it to some degree cause it's a sort of easy habit to fall into, but what's important is that we can step back and say "yes, it's unfair to say this one case represents a movement." It's unfortunate what happened, but all that can be done is people can express disapproval and move back to issues they care about.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Longknife