American Riots, Michael Brown....is it justified ?

[Valsuelm]

 

Police deaths in Canada average maybe 5-6 over the last couple of years. Last one was a speeder, heh.

 

In Finland there has been 110 police officers that have died in line of duty in last 97 years, which includes our civil war and World War II, in years after the wars there has been 21 officers that have died in line of duty. So it is quite hard to perceive situation and culture where cops in USA live from my point of view, because over hundred officer dying in line of duty every year is lot even for 60 times larger country. 

 

 

While the specifics of every police death vary, some generalizations can be made.

 

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

 

First, keep in mind that not every police death is the result of someone else killing them. Some are the result of the officer's actions. ie: a police officer killed themselves in a one car accident a county over from me two years ago by driving at excessive speeds (and no one knew why; but of course the propaganda was such that said police person died a hero). Accidents are also counted in the tally. For example, in 2012, out of 122 deaths only 57 were actually definitely killed by someone else (though it's possible some of the 14 hit by cars were purposely killed). Also keep in mind that some of these killings of police may have been justified (though the local DA likely didn't see it that way). And, some or even many of these deaths very well may have occurred in any line of work and were not job specific related (ie: the police person who drove themselves off the road at excessive speed I mentioned).

 

Second, Note that the highest rates of police deaths on the job occurred during the Prohibition era in the U.S. Per capita police were at least 5 times more likely to be killed during those years than they have been in the last few decades (save 2001). As soon as the 25th amendment was passed that repealed the 18th, which gave us Prohibition, the death rates dropped and haven't risen near as high since (save 2001, but there's an exceptional reason for that year).

 

Now, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the death rate is what it is in any given year, but without a doubt, the more intrusive police are into people's affairs in what many would perceive and unjust manner the more likely they are to get killed.

 

While being a police officer can indeed be a dangerous job, in 2011 (the last year I was able to easily find into for) it's a line of work that didn't even make the top 10 most deadly jobs in America list. It did make #11. And this was in a year that saw the 2nd highest overall police fatality rates in the last decade, and highest # of police shot. Note that the top ten most dangerous jobs don't involve carrying a gun and confronting potentially dangerous people.

 

The propaganda that the police need to do X, when X is assault or killing, in order to protect themselves is overwhelming, in general it's pure BS, but a lot of people buy it. We've got innumerable TV shows and movies reinforcing this propaganda. When one factors the # of police killed in any given year and consider the circumstances a police officer works in, it's a surprisingly safe job.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Police deaths in Canada average maybe 5-6 over the last couple of years. Last one was a speeder, heh.

 

In Finland there has been 110 police officers that have died in line of duty in last 97 years, which includes our civil war and World War II, in years after the wars there has been 21 officers that have died in line of duty. So it is quite hard to perceive situation and culture where cops in USA live from my point of view, because over hundred officer dying in line of duty every year is lot even for 60 times larger country. 

 

 

 

Now, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the death rate is what it is in any given year, but without a doubt, the more intrusive police are into people's affairs in what many would perceive and unjust manner the more likely they are to get killed.

 

 

he makes us laugh. is cops fault for being intrusive?  and we doubt that the motivation for most cop killings is a sense o' justice. the typical killing, regardless o' whether or not a cop is involved, is stupid. you don't need to read to many cases to realize just how unnecessary most homicides is. people tend to kill others because they is afraid or angry or in the heat of the moment they see no better way to resolve a situation.   far too many killers is mentally ill and their killings is so utter unnecessary it is painful to consider. sure, some folks, even some cops, is cold-blooded killers, or killers for social justice (HA!) or gang members following some kinda perceived sense o' duty. drug-related homicides is far too frequent. nevertheless, the number o' killings that occur each year because some individual is convinced that law enforcement is too intrusive has gotta be ridiculous low.  am not sure what inspired val to share that bit o' gut-feeling silliness.

 

according to the cdc, in 2011 there were 16, 238 homicides. of those, 11, 608 were gun-related. 492 o' the gun-related homicides were the result of "legal intervention."  

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_03.pdf

 

there is some nice color-coded graphs from the cdc for 2012 and 2013, but they appear less complete.

 

people kill each other in the US disturbingly frequent and far too many o' those deaths is made possible 'cause o' how easy it is to kill folks with firearms. however, death of and by cops is a an extreme small percentage o' total homicides... and death o' cops due to social justice has gotta be a joke category.

 

that being said, regardless o' how infrequent cop-related killings actual occur, we agree that confidence in cops is disproportionate low at the moment. in spite o' the scary homicide numbers above, all violent crime stats has, for over a decade, been showing a steady decrease. is perhaps ironic given recent events in the news, but the crime situation is better now than it has been for years. crime is down, but cop confidence is low? go figure. we tend to attribute most cop-related anger to the economic situation many people is suffering, but that is as much a gut-level impression as val's social justice motivation for cop killings. if confidence in cops is low, something should be done to correct the problem. 

 

also, we do agree with hurl, to some degree, that there also should be a change in the way the police is policed. even if there were no shenanigans going on, it is tough to take such self-regulation efforts seriously as there is understandably an obvious conflict of interest involved. however, is not easy to identify an immediate solution to lack o' police oversight given our current system o' criminal justice.

 

aside: there were near 40k suicides in 2011, and of those, 19k were gun-related. actually, suicides markedly decreased as natural gas ovens replaced coal gas as the standard in the 1930s and 1940s. suicides decrease when the means o' achieving is requiring more effort... more time for self-reflection? also, another bit o' suicide trivia is that contrary to popular belief, suicides decrease during the holidays. go figure. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Drowsy Emperor]

I'll never understand the mythologizing of police in the US. Now while there are many more dangerous jobs its true that few are as ugly on a day to day basis. Spending so much time around the worst dregs of society takes its toll much faster than most jobs. But they aren't "putting their lives on the line" and all that hyperbolic nonsense, if it were so, they'd be dropping dead left and right. 

 

Opinions on police differ across Europe but nowhere do I see the "boys in blue" nonsense or the special status US cops seem to have. In Serbia, its a running joke - you become a policeman if you're too lazy to go to school. The public views them in a completely dispassionate manner, no more heroes than any other worker. Their safety is not more paramount than anyone else's, and why should it be?

[Drowsy Emperor]

and we have a new one

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/

Edited December 5, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Meshugger]

and we have a new one

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/

 

 

The officer said the driver, later identified as Brisbon, got out and appeared to be removing something from the rear of the SUV. The officer told Brisbon to show his hands, but Brisbon stuffed his hands into his waistband, Crump said.

 

The officer drew his weapon and Brisbon ran toward nearby apartments, Crump said. A short foot chase ensued.

"Witnesses indicated to us that the suspect was verbally challenging to the officer," Crump said.

 

Brisbon refused to comply with the officer's commands to get on the ground, and the two struggled once the officer caught up with him, Crump said.

"During the struggle, Brisbon put his left hand in his pocket and the officer grabbed onto the suspect's hand, while repeatedly telling the suspect to keep his hand in his pocket," he said. "The officer believed he felt the handle of a gun while holding the suspect's hand in his pocket."

 

Take overstressed, underpayed, and undertrained police officers. Add in negligient attitude to when to use lethal force, and finally add in citizens thinking it is a good idea to argue and even wrestle with cops and you got a disaster in the making.

 

The first part can be fixed with money, training and political will, the final part is just beyond me. What do you wish to accomplish to ****ing around with police officers? They have a legal mandate to shoot to kill.

[Rosbjerg]

The final part is just beyond me. What do you wish to accomplish to ****ing around with police officers? They have a legal mandate to shoot to kill.

 

 

Gotta agree, lie down and then do the legal battle afterwards if you were improperly handled. It's a lot easier to claim the officer went out of line if you physically complied and only verbally protested.

 

That said, we still need to take the case serious and the officer should go through extensive investigation (to discourage future use of deadly force).

[Malcador]

I'll never understand the mythologizing of police in the US. Now while there are many more dangerous jobs its true that few are as ugly on a day to day basis. Spending so much time around the worst dregs of society takes its toll much faster than most jobs. But they aren't "putting their lives on the line" and all that hyperbolic nonsense, if it were so, they'd be dropping dead left and right. 

 

Opinions on police differ across Europe but nowhere do I see the "boys in blue" nonsense or the special status US cops seem to have. In Serbia, its a running joke - you become a policeman if you're too lazy to go to school. The public views them in a completely dispassionate manner, no more heroes than any other worker. Their safety is not more paramount than anyone else's, and why should it be?

Media most likely, always some cop show on where cops roughing people up is lauded and always justified (not as funny as in Tropa De Elite where everyone they torture actually knows something, heh). In Canada, it's the same, you get people who show up weeping when these people die, is all very strange. Cops themselves seem to buy into this nonsense that they are not civilians (my example of this was the G20 here, watching them try to do a military style drill while some Canadian soldiers watched on amused ).

 

 

As for that case, that guy made things a bit harder than it is - though then again this events are all being narrated by the cops. Have to wonder if the legal battle is winnable at all though, perception of police immunity and generally being like the Mafia is pretty strong.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Malcador

[Drowsy Emperor]

There's no denying its better to comply than anything else but that's the rational response and most of these situations are not rational in nature. If everyone was always thinking straight we could probably cut the number of police and courts in half.

 

In both the Garner case and this case both of the men were both essentially afraid to go to jail and Garner at least, maybe could have been persuaded to come to terms with it. When you watch the video the two cops are walling him off and waiting for backup. You can tell by their body language that they've already chosen their course of action and are not really interested in defusing the situation. 

 

The law may be the law, but you can't ignore the psychological aspect of it all. A carpenter that only has a hammer in his tool box isn't going to be much of a carpenter. The conclusion that I draw from this is that US cops are simply less hesitant to use deadly force than cops in other western nations. And it ties into the previous comment of everyone living in fear of everyone else. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hurlshort]

The amount of police who are on disability retirement is more telling than the death statistics.  It's difficult to get an exact number, since as I said before, the oversight and statistical analysis available is unbelievably bad, but in a city like Oakland, 4 officers are medically retired for every one that retires under the standard system.  So yeah, it's a dangerous job, it's disingenuous to not recognize that much. 

[Barothmuk]

4 officers are medically retired for every one that retires under the standard system.

Chugging a box of doughnuts a day is pretty unhealthy. Edited December 5, 2014 by Barothmuk

[HoonDing]

Tbh Murrican police is really not that bad. You could do worse... like Sierra Leone or Guatemala.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The amount of police who are on disability retirement is more telling than the death statistics.  It's difficult to get an exact number, since as I said before, the oversight and statistical analysis available is unbelievably bad, but in a city like Oakland, 4 officers are medically retired for every one that retires under the standard system.  So yeah, it's a dangerous job, it's disingenuous to not recognize that much. 

 

Dangerous as compared to what, there were 800 deaths among construction workers in US in 2013 and its safe to assume that bad injuries that were not included in the statistic account for at least three times as many people, if not many more.

 

Policing is more dangerous than paper pushing, but its less dangerous than many other occupations that don't receive much recognition and definitely no special status in society.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Tbh Murrican police is really not that bad. You could do worse... like Sierra Leone or Guatemala.

 

The thing with the US system is in its paradoxes - richest country in the world yet incredibly poor wealth distribution, very high crime rate and poor social/health system compared to other, less wealthy western nations. Few Americans are aware just how much better the overall standard of living is in many western european countries compared to how weaker their economies are to the US. 

I've yet to meet anybody from the US that's really willing to give the issue some thought and draw the obvious conclusions.

[Hurlshort]

What do you define as recognition?  Construction workers get plenty of credit for having dangerous jobs.  They also don't receive nearly as much criticism.  

[Hurlshort]

 

Tbh Murrican police is really not that bad. You could do worse... like Sierra Leone or Guatemala.

 

The thing with the US system is in its paradoxes - richest country in the world yet incredibly poor wealth distribution, very high crime rate and poor social/health system compared to other, less wealthy western nations. Few Americans are aware just how much better the overall standard of living is in many western european countries compared to how weaker their economies are to the US. 

I've yet to meet anybody from the US that's really willing to give the issue some thought and draw the obvious conclusions.

 

 

Few people from the US are willing to give it much thought because you are simplifying an extremely complex issue.  The US is a gigantic country, and really each state is closer to an independent country than anything else.  It is basically like generalizing all of Europe as one place, instead of independent countries with unique problems.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It would be a case of simplifying if I was directly comparing a country that's rich like Norway, but has a small population, but when you compare the standard of living of a large country like Germany, with 80 million people it becomes directly comparable to the US, even though the US is so much larger.

Germany bled itself dry in two world wars and has managed in 50 years to rise out of the ashes provide a better system for its people than the US, that has not had a continental war in over a century on top of becoming incredibly rich and dominant world power at the time the entirety of Europe was turning to ruins.

 

Are you seriously going to argue  that it was easier to solve these issues in germany (wealth redistribution, rebuilding a state, a health, education and social system) from '45 onwards than it was in the US in the past 100 years? 

[Drowsy Emperor]

The great irony being that American money post WWII made it possible in Germany, but American money can't do the same in America.

[Volourn]

"  They also don't receive nearly as much criticism. "

 

They also don't go around  murdering people in cold blood while doing their job.

 

And, yeah, construction workers do receiver criticism.

\

Construction workers are more valuable and more honourable than the police are.

 

So how many people will the police murder before  stop making excuses for the bad ones? Everytime someone defends a bad cop it makes things harder on the good ones. If we actually punish the bad pigs the good cops would likely have a smoother time on their job.

 

 Also, maybe people  resist the police because they know the police are gonna beat them up in prison anyways or  do other nasty thing. Cops are supposed to serve and protect the public not murder the piblic in cold blood.  The police have failed in their jobs because the trust in them is failing. That's, on the police and on their blind faith defenders.

[Valsuelm]

The amount of police who are on disability retirement is more telling than the death statistics.  It's difficult to get an exact number, since as I said before, the oversight and statistical analysis available is unbelievably bad, but in a city like Oakland, 4 officers are medically retired for every one that retires under the standard system.  So yeah, it's a dangerous job, it's disingenuous to not recognize that much. 

 

No way that's not due to corruption.

 

Police aside, it's way too easy to get disability retirement in states like New York or California. I personally know numerous people who have such retirement, and those who really truly are permanently disabled vs those who are gaming the system are in the minority. I also worked i the disability department of a large insurance company for awhile... some of the things I saw (corruption by those insured as well as by the insurance company) would outrage a lot of people.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

What do you define as recognition?  Construction workers get plenty of credit for having dangerous jobs.  They also don't receive nearly as much criticism.  

 

They aren't running around harassing, assaulting, or killing people and getting away with it on a daily basis....

[Hurlshort]

I'm not really a big fan of the disability system, as I've seen far too many people take advantage of it as well.  But that is an entirely different can of worms to open up, and it applies across a lot more industries than law enforcement.

[Hurlshort]

 

What do you define as recognition?  Construction workers get plenty of credit for having dangerous jobs.  They also don't receive nearly as much criticism.  

 

They aren't running around harassing, assaulting, or killing people and getting away with it on a daily basis....

 

 

It's hard to have a reasonable conversation when you throw out hyperbole like this.

 

I support law enforcement reform, I want to see way more accountability, I want a dramatic shift in the way police interact with their communities.  Do you support these things?

 

How do you expect to achieve any of them if you treat every police officer as some thug who goes around harassing, assaulting, and killing people on a daily basis?  Do you recognize how hostile (and frankly unrealistic) that sounds?

 

It's weird to me that the same people that want to yell at the police for not respecting the ideals of innocent until proven guilty are so fast to condemn an entire police force without evidence. 

[Malcador]

Skeptical of any reform forced on the cops will be very successful, if anyone finds enough guts to do it, but a nice dream. Cops don't really have any respect or fondness for 'civilians' anyway, regardless if they are being hostile, so not sure why you want people to not see them as thugs or what have you.

 

Assuming the police are bad based on the ever present "bad apples" does lead to the entire force being seen as bad once they cover for each other and so on - those that cling together, swing together, and all.

[Volourn]

Exactly. It's the 'bro code'. Police will defend each other in almost all cases no matter how obviously wrong they are. So, yeah, when people say the police are corrupt that's its eaxctly why. FFS  Police are nothing but legally allowed thugs in a gang.

 

No different than paying the mafia 'protection money'. That's exactly what the police are as a group. It's too bad since there's plenty of cops who are genuinely good people who became cops because they want to help people. Sadly, the police have forgotten they are there to serve and protect not to harass and maime.

[Zoraptor]

 

The amount of police who are on disability retirement is more telling than the death statistics.  It's difficult to get an exact number, since as I said before, the oversight and statistical analysis available is unbelievably bad, but in a city like Oakland, 4 officers are medically retired for every one that retires under the standard system.  So yeah, it's a dangerous job, it's disingenuous to not recognize that much. 

 

No way that's not due to corruption.

 

 

The equivalent is called PERFing here, it's so prevalent that it even has its own gerundive. It was very common when there were complaints made against police officers for them to PERF out (sometimes using the actual incident as proof of stress/ mental problems...) so the complaint would not be counted as a complaint against the police themselves, all it takes is two doctors to certify physical or mental problems to qualify. Dodging complaints that way has dropped off a lot here recently though, and we're seeing a lot of actual convictions- last few were for demanding sexual favours and selling large amounts of confiscated methamphetamine. But in any case, if someone wants to leave the police or go private PERFing gets them their pension early and qualifies them for a lump sum payment as well, plain early retirement or resignation doesn't.

 

I'd suspect the situation is broadly similar in the US, albeit ours is a national police force rather than the more local US model. 'Friendly' retirement schemes aren't really corruption, though dodging complaints using it probably would be little c corrupt.