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No go for tonight. Sorry folks. 

 

Right before Brandon was going to push the build to steam, QA ran into yet another save/load issue that would make characters lose weapons. The leads thought we should resolve it before pushing. It has been resolved, but now we are having issues with the build process. Just so you  understand why the turnaround is so slow, a full build takes five hours to make for windows, and extra hour for OSX. After every build we run it through a QA checklist process which can take a few hours. The whole thing can be upwards to a full work day -- I apologize, and I'm disappointed that we can't get a build out today. Roby and I are looking into the build issues, and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and we can all enjoy a new BB build. 

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I would rather have QA check things out and say no go than have them let things go through broken.    They are doing their job.  We will get it when it is ready and then we can tear into it and see if they are doing it right.   :cat:

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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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We've had to wait an extra week and then an extra day for pretty much each patch, so it's nothing new. Used to it by now ;)

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What are the reasons for the long build times?  Is it all compiler or linking  etc?  I'm assuming you guys are using a distributed compiler? (does this exist for C#/unity?)

 

Just curious :)

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I would rather have QA check things out and say no go than have them let things go through broken.    They are doing their job.  We will get it when it is ready and then we can tear into it and see if they are doing it right.   :cat:

 

I think I need a sarcasm emoji.

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No go for tonight. Sorry folks. 

 

Right before Brandon was going to push the build to steam, QA ran into yet another save/load issue that would make characters lose weapons. The leads thought we should resolve it before pushing. It has been resolved, but now we are having issues with the build process. Just so you  understand why the turnaround is so slow, a full build takes five hours to make for windows, and extra hour for OSX. After every build we run it through a QA checklist process which can take a few hours. The whole thing can be upwards to a full work day -- I apologize, and I'm disappointed that we can't get a build out today. Roby and I are looking into the build issues, and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and we can all enjoy a new BB build. 

 

Finally, some answers as to your build process. Forgive my presumption, but having a fairly rudimentary understanding of software dev, I just wanted to point out a possible inefficiency in your prog/QA workflow that might help with faster turn-arounds. The inefficiency occurs when a bug that is causing the issue is found quick enough (and the change in the code is made fast enough) that by halfway through the workday a new code compilation is finished. However, what can likely happen is that by the second compilation, another bug will be found that is game-breaking and a whole day is lost because it's too late for the QA to run their checklist.

 

What I think would help with your work process is having an extra layer of QA during code compile - if you don't have this already. One of the QA leads or a programmer should be going over major changes in the code (which should be annotated somewhere already) and verifying that the code isn't missing something obvious. In other words, someone should be looking into that "black box." This way, while the code is being compiled and before QA has to run a checklist, obvious issues will be found (by a local expert who knows to remember to keep looking for the same/common problems) and they save hours or at the very least find bugs in the code they wouldn't have otherwise found. This way a whole code-compile/QA checklist run (literally a whole workday) doesn't always have to occur before it's back to programming again (saving literal hours in the process). It's an arduous task with such a behemoth (a whole game) but if code review is broken down into small chunks (at the very least reviewing the code of the major three parts that were changed in the newest BB), this can be very helpful.

 

Again, my apologies for the presumption: as a backer I totally understand it isn't my place to be making suggestions to your workflow or anything, and I know it's very hard to understand how things work from the outside, but I thought I'd just make a comment.

 

Anyway, don't work too hard Adam. Have a good Friday.


My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

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http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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No go for tonight. Sorry folks. 

 

Right before Brandon was going to push the build to steam, QA ran into yet another save/load issue that would make characters lose weapons. The leads thought we should resolve it before pushing. It has been resolved, but now we are having issues with the build process. Just so you  understand why the turnaround is so slow, a full build takes five hours to make for windows, and extra hour for OSX. After every build we run it through a QA checklist process which can take a few hours. The whole thing can be upwards to a full work day -- I apologize, and I'm disappointed that we can't get a build out today. Roby and I are looking into the build issues, and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and we can all enjoy a new BB build. 

 

I'm confused a bit. Do you have to recompile everything each time you want to test stuff yourselves or is it only necessary for the builds you want to push out for public?

Given how I go about the little programming I have to do at work, there is a lot of recompiling going on for a lot of small changes when I test stuff, so I guess it's not feasible to work with compiling times of 5 hours when you can't be sure that everything is already working perfectly.

I also don't get how this relates to the process of making mods - I doubt that the people making small changes of lines for their mods have to somehow recompile the entire game, do they? So I guess the long compiling is only necessary for some core parts while the details can be changed quickly without compiling or something?

Someone care to elaborate?

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What I find interesting is that the whole game is being compiled just in order to publish the limited BB. But on the other hand maybe it's better that way. You can find problems during compilation which ypu wouldn't find if you were compiling a small demo.


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I also don't get how this relates to the process of making mods - I doubt that the people making small changes of lines for their mods have to somehow recompile the entire game, do they? So I guess the long compiling is only necessary for some core parts while the details can be changed quickly without compiling or something?

Someone care to elaborate?

Modding is either done via code injection at runtime, or editing the code in an IL (which is fine for small changes, nasty for big ones) and recompiling the dll (which is basically instant). Doesn't have anything to do with making a build in Unity.

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I also don't get how this relates to the process of making mods - I doubt that the people making small changes of lines for their mods have to somehow recompile the entire game, do they? So I guess the long compiling is only necessary for some core parts while the details can be changed quickly without compiling or something?

Someone care to elaborate?

Modding is either done via code injection at runtime, or editing the code in an IL (which is fine for small changes, nasty for big ones) and recompiling the dll (which is basically instant). Doesn't have anything to do with making a build in Unity.

 

 

Thats good to know, thanks a bunch!

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What I find interesting is that the whole game is being compiled just in order to publish the limited BB. But on the other hand maybe it's better that way. You can find problems during compilation which ypu wouldn't find if you were compiling a small demo.

Obviously you are not much of a coder - it doesnt matter how much content you have in BB as its not part of the code (game engine). Pretty much BB is whole game but without some assets as other maps and some scripts for them but code for game is whole.


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Obviously you are not much of a coder - it doesnt matter how much content you have in BB as its not part of the code (game engine). Pretty much BB is whole game but without some assets as other maps and some scripts for them but code for game is whole.

Wow, can you read my hand too?

 

Actually I've studied history. Any code I've written and write isn't compiled, so I've never gotten an idea of how much it usually takes to compile something of the size of PoE. Still a full day seems like too long - how would they quickly test small changes?

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Obviously you are not much of a coder - it doesnt matter how much content you have in BB as its not part of the code (game engine). Pretty much BB is whole game but without some assets as other maps and some scripts for them but code for game is whole.

Wow, can you read my hand too?

 

Actually I've studied history. Any code I've written and write isn't compiled, so I've never gotten an idea of how much it usually takes to compile something of the size of PoE. Still a full day seems like too long - how would they quickly test small changes?

 

Yes it seems quite long, I belive its because of encryptions - you see that normaly you compile code and then can run it but when you are going to sell your product you want your code encrypted as well so no-one crack it day one :) - that is probably taking so long time

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I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Obviously you are not much of a coder - it doesnt matter how much content you have in BB as its not part of the code (game engine). Pretty much BB is whole game but without some assets as other maps and some scripts for them but code for game is whole.

Wow, can you read my hand too?

 

Actually I've studied history. Any code I've written and write isn't compiled, so I've never gotten an idea of how much it usually takes to compile something of the size of PoE. Still a full day seems like too long - how would they quickly test small changes?

 

 

It depends on what exactly they're doing with a build. If they're just compiling the EXE it seems rather long, however if they're doing a fresh build of all their assets (ie compressing/down sampling all maps, artwork, equipment, character and creature models and audio from high resolution master copies) then it seems like a reasonable amount of time.

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These guys work crazy hours. I'm a pacific time zoner like OE, and I've seen Adam posting at like 10 pm. Gotta admire that dedication trying to get these updates out to us and keeping us apprised of what's going on. 

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These guys work crazy hours. I'm a pacific time zoner like OE, and I've seen Adam posting at like 10 pm. Gotta admire that dedication trying to get these updates out to us and keeping us apprised of what's going on.

Definitely. I'm sure they are being delayed because they are working, not for some other reason.


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Compiling the game only takes about 20 seconds (this is a nice thing about C# - a C/C++ game with optimizations can take hours). The rest of the build is spent grabbing changed data from perforce, compiling resources, compressing, changing files into different formats, optimizing assets, copying files from different places over the network.

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My question is = is there any chance they will get compiled and out to Steam before Christmas?  Not that I am being pushy or anything like that.  :blink:


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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My question is = is there any chance they will get compiled and out to Steam before Christmas?  Not that I am being pushy or anything like that.  :blink:

 

Well, since the problem from yesterday has been solved I'm under the assumption that the patch is on track to be released today.

Unless something else comes up of course.

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