Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition

[Hassat Hunter]

No such thing. Instead there are random people enjoying RTS-games, driving simulators, RPGs, enjoy combative online shooters and so on. But suddenly some journalists claimed that they were one single culture, a sexist one, morphed into one race of white people who failed at life and this culture should die. Then the entertainment started.

I seriously have no idea what this discussion is about (not in the mood to read 30 pages of thread right now)... but yeah. I have to agree it's been most sexist that there never been female racecars in my driving games. Not sure what misogynist gamedevelopers allowed that to go through...

 

EDIT: *reads below post*

So, this is not about GamersGate, the DD-platform? I was wondering why a Steam-like service could be called sexist... now I'm more confused what the hell GamerGate is...

Edited October 17, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[BruceVC]

@Bruce: The article and the links to the article covering IGF corruption should address your question.

http://www.takuchat.com/indie-developer-lost-connections-just-re-posting-video-gamergate/

 

The reason why GTAV  and games like it are still coming out is because the media doesn't control the consumers and therefore publishers keep going for what sells, the indie scene is however a different story. They don't have the resources and are much susceptible and vulnerable to influence by gaming journalism, as their promotion depends a lot on the connections they have.

 

It is another matter entirely when journalist use their position to be arbiters of what is acceptable or not.

 

Edit: Also, the fact that feminism has been co opted by some of the more radical elements doesn't seem to bother you. Why would GG become disturbed by what are small extremist elements using the tag.

 

I read that link and I watched the video, firstly Paul Huban comes across as very honest and sincere. But he also says things like the Quinn incident sleeping with Grayson is inconsequential and he is more concerned with nepotism at IGF. He seems very apologetic about offending ex-friends, but what video did he post about IGF? I couldn't find that as it was private in Youtube

 

Can you find his original video he posted that caused the issue?

[Elerond]

Geek & Sundry tweets one of their vlogers video where he talks about gamergate and how he thinks that it is not movement or equivalent, but a brand and not even very shiny one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-NzqCJ4lM&feature=youtu.be

[BruceVC]

Geek & Sundry tweets one of their vlogers video where he talks about gamergate and how he thinks that it is not movement or equivalent, but a brand and not even very shiny one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-NzqCJ4lM&feature=youtu.be

 

Yeah that's another accurate video about the state and nature of GG

[Fighter]

Geek & Sundry tweets one of their vlogers video where he talks about gamergate and how he thinks that it is not movement or equivalent, but a brand and not even very shiny one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-NzqCJ4lM&feature=youtu.be

 

Yeah that's another inaccurate video about the state and nature of GG

[BruceVC]

 

Geek & Sundry tweets one of their vlogers video where he talks about gamergate and how he thinks that it is not movement or equivalent, but a brand and not even very shiny one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-NzqCJ4lM&feature=youtu.be

 

Yeah that's another inaccurate video about the state and nature of GG

 

 

That sounds like something I would say...its just the wrong way around

[Blarghagh]

Yeah that's another video about the state and nature of GG.

 

I thought this guy was entitled to have his own opinion though I disagreed with it and his assessment that #GamerGate started with the Quinnspiracy harassment as the whole point of #GamerGate was for gamers to distance themselves from that harassment as their culture got mass condemned for it. (Which then got co-opted by the same nuts, so obviously they bloody bungled it.)

 

I also disagree with the assessment that nothing good came out of GG. The revelations about IGF racketeering are pretty damn important.

 

So yeah, let's stop ignoring facts over opinions like "it's all bad" or "it's all good".

[Longknife]

 

The social justice warrior title is a misnomer. They're Self Justified Whiners who've never been about justice in any social sense.

 

Hiro do you think you could possibly make some constructive comments about this topic

 

 

How about you save that remark until you make a habit of actually providing rebuttals to arguments people provide you with instead of your trademark "Excellent post! I will now cease to appear in this thread until there's a new issue that comes up in my favor! "

[Fighter]

That sounds like something I would say...its just the wrong way around

 

Hmm... coincidence or conspiracy?

 

It's another video that say GG is tainted because it's most prominent actions were the harassments. But it is the same media who take a tiny minority of people engaged in actual harassment and smears it on everyone who happens to post under the same hashtag (and as it happens many threats don't even use the hashtag). It is an image deliberately created through empirical inaccuracy and intellectual dishonesty.

[Orogun01]

Yeah that's another video about the state and nature of GG.

 

I thought this guy was entitled to have his own opinion though I disagreed with it and his assessment that #GamerGate started with the Quinnspiracy harassment as the whole point of #GamerGate was for gamers to distance themselves from that harassment as their culture got mass condemned for it. (Which then got co-opted by the same nuts, so obviously they bloody bungled it.)

 

I also disagree with the assessment that nothing good came out of GG. The revelations about IGF racketeering are pretty damn important.

 

So yeah, let's stop ignoring facts over opinions like "it's all bad" or "it's all good".

The thing is that these allegations are from a month ago, this whole thing has developed very fast and is quite disorganized. As usual the collective memory seems to be short and I find it suspect how contributions to TFYC seem to have been all but forgotten. Quite the misogynistic thing to do, donate towards helping women make games.

 

On a more conspiratorial note, I believe that the reason why ZQ seems to have all but vanished is related to her involvement with trying to take down TFYC. Would quite the damning thing if everyone's favorite harassment victim was revealed to be involved in that debacle.

[Blarghagh]

I thought this video was much more interesting, not because it's particularely good but because it made me laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmYaAkL_m7E

[pseudonymous]

Yeah that's another accurate video about the state and nature of GG

 

 

Nope.  Here's a collection of screen grabs that explain it far better than people whining about people on the internet.  You'll note the GNAA involved in egging the harassment on.

[Blarghagh]

 

Yeah that's another accurate video about the state and nature of GG

 

 

Nope.  Here's a collection of screen grabs that explain it far better than people whining about people on the internet.  You'll note the GNAA involved in egging the harassment on.

 

 

...

 

What the ****.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Hiro do you think you could possibly make some constructive comments about this topic instead of petulant  blanket insults and opaque statements about "some people"

 

I know its going to be hard, but I have confidence that you can say something  interesting?

 

You didn't refute what I said and it's quite true with every comment I've made in this thread. Even the list from Anita's website of games she's criticised. How you can criticise a game like Pac-Man is beyond me. I guess you really can see discrimination, prejudice, bigotry, racism, misogyny and anything else in everything. Next, we'll have some feminist/SJW complain about having white tiles instead of black tiles in someone's bathroom. 

 

Maybe you can change that biased view you have someday. I know it's going to be hard, but maybe one day you can be a gamer like the rest of us. PrimeJunta seems to be a lost cause for now.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Yeah that's another accurate video about the state and nature of GG

 

Nope. Here's a collection of screen grabs that explain it far better than people whining about people on the internet. You'll note the GNAA involved in egging the harassment on.

...

 

What the ****.

Honest question TN, are you honestly suprised that these folks who do their best to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find evidence of misogyny are bribing people to say misogynist stuff to discredit opponents?

[Blarghagh]

I am not, I just thought they would be less overt about it.

[pseudonymous]

 

 

Yeah that's another accurate video about the state and nature of GG

 

 

Nope.  Here's a collection of screen grabs that explain it far better than people whining about people on the internet.  You'll note the GNAA involved in egging the harassment on.

 

 

...

 

What the ****.

 

 

Someone posted this to pastebin back in September, it insinuates that the "social justice" aspect is just a smoke-screen.  Given the above screen grabs, I see no reason to doubt it.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I am not, I just thought they would be less overt about it.

I didn't expect them to be less overt, if anything I expected them to be more overt. Most media will not call them on their ****, no matter what his low they sink.

[Nonek]

Scraping barrels is quite hard work i'd imagine, and we all know that Ms Sarkeesian and co. don't have to use facts or experience to criticise, they just spout their scripture and expect the brainless filth to follow without any thought or complaint. And of course if we filth don't then we are treated to condemnation as...lower forms of filth?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

Much of this drama comes from these journalists (SJWs or not) trying to politicize games

 

 

Is how you put it, while I prefer "a rather large number of gamers objecting on principle to any kind of academic discussion about games".

 

I mean, if you feel your opinions and priorities don't match that of games journalists', therefore their articles offer nothing of value to you - by all means, refrain from giving them money and exposure. But decrying games journalism as "corrupted by the leftist agenda" which therefore has to be torn down leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth. Why can't we just let the free market decide whether there is enough demand for gaming websites with a SJW outlook to make them profitable?

 

 

Except that is not what happened. It was just not any academic discussion with panels discussing the merits of online gaming, communication and building communities, or workshops about knowledge-building in gaming and interactive environments. You know, what academia usually does: having a platform to increase the overall knowledge of given subject. Instead gaming magazines told the readers as it was a normal form conduct that they are culture, and that it should die (granted it had been brewing with all kinds of similar articles before that, but it was the tipping point). Not only that, leaks showed that they were all collaborating with a common agenda, you know, a conspiracy. Of course all discussion about this on their forums and friends forums were quickly silenced as well.

 

If they had been open about this with honest and frank language, like adults do, this gamergate would've never happened. But instead they were planning and reacting like mentally stunted teenagers, and thus everything developed in an organic procedure.

 

 

So now your problem is censorship, not "politicizing games". Make up your mind already.

 

 

See post #65.

[JadedWolf]

 

I am not, I just thought they would be less overt about it.

I didn't expect them to be less overt, if anything I expected them to be more overt. Most media will not call them on their ****, no matter what his low they sink.

 

 

You are very much right. There are a lot of lazy journalists out there. I found an article in a Dutch newspaper, one which normally rarely ever covers anything to do with games, decrying the terrible abuse suffered by women at the hands of the conservative angry white males known as GamerGate. The journalist who wrote it had obviously just copied everything from the Forbes article without doing any sort of research of his own into the subject. And I imagine this sort of thing is spreading to local newspapers everywhere. The force of lazy journalism is strong indeed.

 

For those who speak Dutch : http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5595/Digitaal/article/detail/3770903/2014/10/17/Gamevrouwen-bedreigd-Bitch-ik-weet-waar-je-woont.dhtml

[Malcador]

Huh, I always thought GNAA was just some Slashdot meme.

[Shallow]

 

You asked me a question and I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, now you don't like my answer?

 

I'll explain it a different way, end of the day if you want to do something about harassment and abuse on the Internet all you can do make personal stands and make a decision on principle, you are not necessarily going to impact change but that's not the point . Because no one controls the Internet. So what does this mean? As I mentioned distance yourself from GG, but explain the reasons why when you make this break. This does not mean you are suggesting every person on GG is guilty of abuse and misogyny. But GG is tainted, so rather don't support the overall movement. You can still discuss issues with gaming journalists but what you guys fail to grasp, despite the fact I repeat it regularly, is that GG won't achieve anything because of its lack of real support from the gaming industry

 

And if you disagree with me then can you explain what changes GG has effectively been responsible for implementing? Because for me all it seems to do is polarize discussions?

 

And then going back to what else you can do. If for example you are on a website that allows bigotry, like RPGCodex, then challenge people who make homophobic, rape jokes  or anti-Semitic comments. Its not easy I know that, its much simpler just to say nothing. But once again when you make a decision around principle that becomes the salient reasons why you may or may not criticize certain comments. Never ask yourself  "what will people think of me if I say this " ? (and of course sometimes this is a consideration )

 

Finally the objective of challenging abusive behaviour on the Internet is also to use your discretion, so there are times where you just have to let certain comments slide.

 

Bruce, again, the issue is that you want us to somehow deal with the harassment within our group, so I asked you for any good ways we can keep fighting for whatever the hell we're fighting for, whilst doing something about harassment, the reason I don't like your answer is because it's wrong, in that it doesn't fit the first catagory, it doesn't really fit the second either. Sure, when someone says something racist, homophobic, or sexist, I'll call them ****, but we're already doing that. Making a break doesn't work, because anyone can start tweeting death threats with the new hashtag, and either making constant breaks and reuniting, or making a break and scattering forever even though we're all pushing for the same thing, will remove all power, unity, and organization within the movement. You gotta suggest something that allows us to "take a stand against harassment", whilst allowing us continue with what we're doing, if you want us to fight harassment.

[Blarghagh]

What's GNAA?

 

 

 

I am not, I just thought they would be less overt about it.

I didn't expect them to be less overt, if anything I expected them to be more overt. Most media will not call them on their ****, no matter what his low they sink.

 

 

You are very much right. There are a lot of lazy journalists out there. I found an article in a Dutch newspaper, one which normally rarely ever covers anything to do with games, decrying the terrible abuse suffered by women at the hands of the conservative angry white males known as GamerGate. The journalist who wrote it had obviously just copied everything from the Forbes article without doing any sort of research of his own into the subject. And I imagine this sort of thing is spreading to local newspapers everywhere. The force of lazy journalism is strong indeed.

 

For those who speak Dutch : http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5595/Digitaal/article/detail/3770903/2014/10/17/Gamevrouwen-bedreigd-Bitch-ik-weet-waar-je-woont.dhtml

 

 

It can't even get the basest facts right because it specifies that the attacks are against "topvrouwen" a.k.a. those who are at the top of games hierarchy. I haven't heard anything of Jade Raymond getting threatened, just some nobodies that literally nobody would know if they hadn't been threatened.

 

EDIT: WikiLeaks on GamerGate: "The say movement is tainted, they're right. Keep going anyway."

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

What's GNAA?

 

 

 

 

 

I am not, I just thought they would be less overt about it.

I didn't expect them to be less overt, if anything I expected them to be more overt. Most media will not call them on their ****, no matter what his low they sink.

You are very much right. There are a lot of lazy journalists out there. I found an article in a Dutch newspaper, one which normally rarely ever covers anything to do with games, decrying the terrible abuse suffered by women at the hands of the conservative angry white males known as GamerGate. The journalist who wrote it had obviously just copied everything from the Forbes article without doing any sort of research of his own into the subject. And I imagine this sort of thing is spreading to local newspapers everywhere. The force of lazy journalism is strong indeed.

 

For those who speak Dutch : http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5595/Digitaal/article/detail/3770903/2014/10/17/Gamevrouwen-bedreigd-Bitch-ik-weet-waar-je-woont.dhtml

It can't even get the basest facts right because it specifies that the attacks are against "topvrouwen" a.k.a. those who are at the top of games hierarchy. I haven't heard anything of Jade Raymond getting threatened, just some nobodies that literally nobody would know if they hadn't been threatened.

 

EDIT: WikiLeaks on GamerGate: "The say movement is tainted, they're right. Keep going anyway."

You mean Brianna Who? isn't a top tier developer? I'm shocked!

 

The more this goes on the more obvious it has become that these people have sealed themselves into an echo chamber. Mental gymnastics like pointing out that trolls can't be easily stopped means you condone harassment, using a hashtag and wanting more ethical journalism makes you a misogynist bigotry, and that there is some grand conspiracy by gamers to drive out teh wimminz and teh darkies because some **** anon troll on Twitter tweets something awful are ****ing baffling.

 

Maybe asking for more ethical journalism was a mistake. I'm starting to believe that these people are so unprincipled that they are incapable of adhering to any code of ethics or honor. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig after all.