Delayed to early 2015

[gladestone]

Yes they should have done a quick backer update.I myself don't use twitter or fb. For my games.found out through this post.How ever most games are doing this these days.If you follow star citizen at all they do every thing.Info comes from all over including sandis. Fb page.. Just saying it's the times an what devi are doing these days

[Azrael Ultima]

D&D is a half-baked mess that usually doesn't know what it's trying to do with itself, Next no less than any of its predecessors.

I think it is partially because it is assumed that you play the game with a DM who can make judgement calls and tailor the adventures to the characters present.

 

It is supposed to only be half-baked, with the players shaping it as they see fit and then finishing the baking process.

[Lephys]

If they happen to wait 'til April 1st, I'll get a pretty awesome birthday gift, ^_^

[J.E. Sawyer]

Can we hear from developers, with what Obsidian is not satisfied and what will be changed within the game?

 

Major things we are working on right now:

 

* Restructuring class advancement to allow more options, both within the selection of core class Abilities and through the (many) Talents that we implemented based on backer feedback.

 

* Modifying some class features to be more transparent or just fundamentally work better.  Monk wounds (and many of their abilities) were very confusing previously.  We've revised them to make what's happening much clearer and easier to use.

 

* Save/load and other persistence issues.  This has been more troublesome than we initially expected and it has caused problems over a much longer period of time than we expected.  Save/load issues can be infuriating, so we really need to spend the necessary time on it.

 

* Memory overhead.  Dan Spitzley has already made good progress on this by looking at audio memory issues and inefficient texture use/atlasing.

 

* Adding in minor bestiary, exploration, lock, and trap XP rewards to increase the regularity of XP rewards across the game.

 

* Revising how time/turns in the Stronghold work.  The turn system (which elapses based on quest progress) solved some problems with time-based stronghold systems in other games (including ones we've made) but it causes some confusion. We're separating "turn"-based resource generation from the random event system, which will be based on the passage of world time.

 

* Pathfinding.  If we could have simply salvaged our previous system, we would have, but that did not appear possible, so we had to fundamentally rebuild it.  There are still problems with log-jams between characters attempting to move through the same space.

 

* Writing/narrative review.  On most projects, it's rare to never that we get time to actually review our own writing and consider how major plot moments and information are conveyed in the story.  This is also includes Karma Police reviews, where we ensure that the various choices players make have consistent feedback throughout the game.

 

* Animation feedback and general aesthetics.  We just added blended flinches for all hits (ones that don't Interrupt, that is -- Interrupts already have their own animation), which was something we weren't able to do at the beginning of the project.  They can be played while a character is in the middle of a reload, attack, spellcast, or even while prone, which helps a lot with feedback.

 

* Character model/texture quality.  It's difficult to balance the needs of a distant camera with the camera views you have in character creation, level up, and inventory, but Dimitri is making his way through the more glaring issues.

[gladestone]

Mr. Sawyer

 

I'd advise talking to your fan base instead of Facebook next time.Trust in obsidion but bone head move on yell part do a update.Just some advise.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I know some people wonder why this was the specific time when we chose to announce our delay.  After all, there were big problems in Gamescom/BB build, so why not announce a delay immediately?  I think it's a reasonable thing to wonder about, so hopefully this explanation will answer some of your questions.

 

When you, the individual developer, think there is a timeline problem on a project, it's usually not enough to simply rely on spidey-sense.  There are exceptions to this, e.g. if you're working on a small team where everyone has high exposure to almost every aspect of the game.  But with a team of 20+ people working on a project at a company of well over 100, gut feelings aren't substantive enough to make immediate course-corrections.  What they are good enough to do is start investigating and start planning potential scenarios.  When the Backer Beta went out, Adam, Brandon, and I all knew there were major problems, but we needed to quantify those problems in terms of time spent across our team.  I.e., how many problems, how long do these problems take to fix, and who has time to fix these problems?  We also had found work, which is a general way of bundling those valuable and worthwhile new features and options that backers and internal developers bring up that we think we really should take the time to pursue.

 

We worked with the OEI owners to quantify all of this work and project it out over the next several months.  There's really no point in us hooting and hollering that the sky is falling until we realistically understand how fast the sky is falling and what is required to prevent it from crashing.  This took the time between the BB launch and several updates.  That gave us burn down rates on bugs, a comprehensive listing and allocation of found work, and time for all of the leads to discuss a realistic timeline to complete the game at the necessary quality level.  Of course, we also needed to discuss all of this with Paradox since they are the publisher for PoE and are handling a large number of logistical aspects of completing the game, including physical goods, localization, PR, marketing, and some QA.

 

We also try to be as general as possible for as long as possible on dates for two reasons a) the closer we get to the end, the more accurate our estimates get and b) nobody likes seeing a ship date shift five times.  If we could get all of our estimates right and all of the backed features in and polished exactly on time, that would be ideal.  But if I'm forced to pick two of the following three: all promised features, high level of quality, on time -- "on time" is almost always going to be the thing I'd prefer to sacrifice.  On many of the projects I've been a part of "level of quality" has been the thing sacrificed, and I've almost never had a say in it.

[Tamerlane]

 

D&D is a half-baked mess that usually doesn't know what it's trying to do with itself, Next no less than any of its predecessors.

I think it is partially because it is assumed that you play the game with a DM who can make judgement calls and tailor the adventures to the characters present.

 

It is supposed to only be half-baked, with the players shaping it as they see fit and then finishing the baking process.

 

 

Don't need three+ $30-$40 books for pancake batter.

[NikoBolas]

I'm of course torn on hearing of a delay. I'm very glad that the game will have the level of quality it needs to be a true successor to some of my favorite games ever made. I'm also very sad that the wait will be that much longer. However, I have other things I need to do and have already waited quite a long time. Most people that kickstart projects must have a good sense of time and a strong well of patience to draw on. Looking forward to more progress, polish, and pillars of eternity!

[Cantousent]

I don't want to sound jaded, but I never trust release dates that aren't imminent anyway.  However, and I figure this one will go out to the ether :wry grin: but are you focusing more on just squashing bugs, reworking combat mechanics, or including more content at this point?  ...Or is the answer "yes?"

[archangel979]

I don't want to sound jaded, but I never trust release dates that aren't imminent anyway.  However, and I figure this one will go out to the ether :wry grin: but are you focusing more on just squashing bugs, reworking combat mechanics, or including more content at this point?  ...Or is the answer "yes?"

Check out Sawyer's post on page 9 to get an answer to this. Edited October 5, 2014 by archangel979

[Cantousent]

Oops.  Thanks, angel.  :Cant's sheepish grin icon:

[ManifestedISO]

That is remarkably similar to the business I work in: As a customer, you can have your product made well, made inexpensively, or made quickly ... only two out of three are possible.  

Edited October 5, 2014 by ManifestedISO

[DCParry]

 

 

 

And all these things are a surprise? These seems to be a rather extensive list of additions/changes at a state where we were told the game was feature locked quite a bit ago. 

 

EDIT - Just read Josh's addendum. I am still quite surprised at the level of change for which you are aiming. I understand, but I am not particularly encouraged at this point. Hopefully I am wrong. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by DCParry

[Zeckul]

* Pathfinding.  If we could have simply salvaged our previous system, we would have, but that did not appear possible, so we had to fundamentally rebuild it.  There are still problems with log-jams between characters attempting to move through the same space.

I've suggested it elsewhere but there's a great free library for multi-agent collision avoidance called RVO2, it's well optimised and it's been used successfully in commercial games (although you might need to contact the authors for that). It's available both in C++ and C#. It doesn't solve pathfinding (which is easy enough), but it solves the much tougher problem of multi-agent cooperation in tight spaces. Just something to look at if you haven't.

 

Edited October 5, 2014 by Zeckul

[Ffordesoon]

Called it.

 

PrimeJunta owes me... Ew. A testicle? Never mind.

 

Seriously, this is good news.

 

I do confess to being a bit confused when people were shocked and horrified that a beta of an Obsidian game had showstopping bugs, though. Made me wonder how many people here have bought and played Obsidian games on release. I was pleasantly surprised at how stable and together the game already feels, to be honest with you.

 

But then, I was never expecting it to release in 2014, so.

[Sensuki]

Good list of fixes, hopefully different character stances for recovery time and combat idle are high on the list as well.

 

Lock XP is a bad idea though. If you're going to do that you should give XP for other options too, especially in scripted interactions and cancel out the XP for the other option once the first one has been completed.

 

eg. Pick lock 25 XP, Push stone out of the way 25XP .. etc

 

Looks like I'm going to have to make a feature wishlist video tonight.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

 

eg. Pick lock 25 XP, Push stone out of the way 25XP .. etc

 

 

That would be cool.

[adam77]

 

Can we hear from developers, with what Obsidian is not satisfied and what will be changed within the game?

 

Major things we are working on right now:

 

* Restructuring class advancement to allow more options, both within the selection of core class Abilities and through the (many) Talents that we implemented based on backer feedback.

 

* Modifying some class features to be more transparent or just fundamentally work better.  Monk wounds (and many of their abilities) were very confusing previously.  We've revised them to make what's happening much clearer and easier to use.

 

* Save/load and other persistence issues.  This has been more troublesome than we initially expected and it has caused problems over a much longer period of time than we expected.  Save/load issues can be infuriating, so we really need to spend the necessary time on it.

 

* Memory overhead.  Dan Spitzley has already made good progress on this by looking at audio memory issues and inefficient texture use/atlasing.

 

* Adding in minor bestiary, exploration, lock, and trap XP rewards to increase the regularity of XP rewards across the game.

 

* Revising how time/turns in the Stronghold work.  The turn system (which elapses based on quest progress) solved some problems with time-based stronghold systems in other games (including ones we've made) but it causes some confusion. We're separating "turn"-based resource generation from the random event system, which will be based on the passage of world time.

 

* Pathfinding.  If we could have simply salvaged our previous system, we would have, but that did not appear possible, so we had to fundamentally rebuild it.  There are still problems with log-jams between characters attempting to move through the same space.

 

* Writing/narrative review.  On most projects, it's rare to never that we get time to actually review our own writing and consider how major plot moments and information are conveyed in the story.  This is also includes Karma Police reviews, where we ensure that the various choices players make have consistent feedback throughout the game.

 

* Animation feedback and general aesthetics.  We just added blended flinches for all hits (ones that don't Interrupt, that is -- Interrupts already have their own animation), which was something we weren't able to do at the beginning of the project.  They can be played while a character is in the middle of a reload, attack, spellcast, or even while prone, which helps a lot with feedback.

 

* Character model/texture quality.  It's difficult to balance the needs of a distant camera with the camera views you have in character creation, level up, and inventory, but Dimitri is making his way through the more glaring issues.

 

Thanks for your reply Josh. It is now much clearer why the game is postponed and I'm happy for all these corrections and adjustments.

 

Perhaps just one more little thing..... fight xp rewarding.....  maybe? :)

[Azrael Ultima]

Don't need three+ $30-$40 books for pancake batter.

Can't re-use pancake batter for years on end either, though.

 

 

 

And ouch, save system still buggy? Yeah, you really don't want to release an cRPG with that.

 

Also, the most infuriating part of BG2 for me right now is the pathfinding. At least one character tries to go and circle the entire map to get through a doorway directly in front of them every single time.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Azrael Ultima

[Zed]

 

* Character model/texture quality.  It's difficult to balance the needs of a distant camera with the camera views you have in character creation, level up, and inventory, but Dimitri is making his way through the more glaring issues.

 

Removing the pure whites in characters eyes would go a long way to improve faces in character creation screen.

[PrimeJunta]

@JES That's an excellent list. If you get all of those ship-shape, I for one will be an extremely happy camper.

 

You didn't mention targeting reticles though, but I believe someone else already said they're in the pipeline...

[Infinitron]

 

* Adding lock, and trap XP rewards 

 

You should only award XP for opening locked chests and disarming traps on trapped chests. I probably don't need to explain why - those are the things that every player is going to want to do in every playthrough.

 

For locked/trapped doors, there might be another way around them, and when there are trapped floors, it's a common tactic to just detect the trap and walk around it, rather than disarm it.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Infinitron

[Night Stalker]

 

 

* Adding lock, and trap XP rewards 

 

You should only award XP for opening locked chests and disarming traps on trapped chests. I probably don't need to explain why - those are the things that every player is going to want to do in every playthrough.

 

For locked/trapped doors, there might be another way around them, and when there are trapped floors, it's a common tactic to just detect the trap and walk around it, rather than disarm it.

 

 

I agree.

 

The point of removing many of the old sources of XP was to discourage people from "degenerative gameplay", so adding new opportunities for this would not be a good idea.

[Sensuki]

Yeah no reason to go back on that. If you're going to have XP for locked doors then you need to create an "obstacle XP" system of some sort, where you can only get one reward for completing the objective, and the others are then cancelled out.

[archangel979]

Well trap/lock XP is still better then nothing. It worked well in IE games because other classes also had way to "disable" traps and open locks but only rogue got XP for it. It was a good system. But now, with everyone being able to take Mechanics with rogue having no advantage and no Open Lock spells, the same system cannot just be c/p from IE.