Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[wanderon]

Thumbs up over all - lots of improvement! 

 

Still some weirdness with items - saved and reloaded and anyone who had a large shield in weapon slot was now surf-boarding on it (out of combat) - eventually solved by selling the shields

 

No leftover/respawning loot bags but shield/grimoire combo showed up on floor by the bar at the inn - just sitting there can't interact with it.

 

Leftover from last build - don't know if it's a bug or a feature - BB wizard cannot learn more than 1  level 3 "magic missle" can't learn more than 2 fireballs (clicking on them to add them to an open spell slot does nothing once 1 missle or 2 fireballs have been put in.

[TrueMenace]

Thumbs down for:

-Combat sometimes take far too long, with too much swish-swooshing. Some enemies, seemingly normal down in the ruins, took a beating for 20 minutes, and they still stood up fighting. Similarly, my party took their beating on them for that long. Utterly bizarre, It's like the game has 1,000 hp on critters, and each hit lands 1 in damage. I swapped all kinds of weapons, slashing, crushing, used all spells. It barely made a difference. One fight, I just had to leave out of sheer boredom.

 

I thought it was only me but yea, fights are taking way too long for some reason. I had like my entire party attacking the last enemy and that took quite a while for some reason.

[Monte Carlo]

Not being able to kite is extremely frustrating. It lessens tactics and seems mainly to (a) be one of those Sawyerisms that fall under the 'strange-idea-of-fun' categories and (b) to mask fairly primitive creature AI.

 

A 'retreat' function that allows you to back away but risk an attack-of-opportunity style hit in return seems fair, and better than what we have now.

[Sensuki]

Movement should not pause recovery time, unless you're using a crossbow or a gun.

[nipsen]

I'm just that awesome, I guess.

 

I play on normal, btw. I always play on normal first time through since that is the base balanced level as per usual game design. Still, don't know why poison/petrify is so dangerous for you guys.

Dump stats?

[Sarex]

Ok I'm still not done with my playthrough of the beta, but I can say this anyways, load times for entering buildings is way too long and I'm using an ssd...

[Starwars]

It's not optimized yet.

[Sarex]

In some cases my load times were longer for entering buildings then changing a map, but I guess buildings are done as separate maps in PoE.

[Sensuki]

Yeah it's strange, in the IE games houses and stuff are loaded with the main level.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Volourn]

Load times are way slower now, and the stat screen seems buggy not showing the proper stats espicially health and the like. <>

[Sensuki]

I randomly get long load times for stuff, sometimes it's shorter.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, second impressions. Finally managed to put some time in. Playing at Normal. Rolled up a cipher. I'm not playing all that well; I haven't had a TPW but have had to rest rather a lot. The teleporting spiders are odd unless they're actually supposed to do that (phase spiders?). Some of those DoT effects feel way over the top, Deep Wounds, poison, that sort of thing. Partway through the Dyrford ruins at this point. Those cultists are dropping distinctly nicer loot.

 

First off, this feels like a game, not a clusterboink. That is good. Now it is actually possible to explore it and see how things feel. There are scads of bugs still, especially in stuff like status effects--BB Fighter is currently permanently Dazed, for example, unless it's just a dwarf thing.

 

Movement is definitely slower. So are load times. Combat feels way more controllable. Still awfully fumbly since I don't have a good handle on what the things do; exploring them. Cipher's Soul Ignition has been nerfed, perhaps a bit too much, now it only seems to be doing like 1 damage (well, the couple of times I tried it).

 

This is a long way from the "IE feel" yet, but it's a giant leap closer. So giant thumbs-up for great progress, but there is a ways to go yet. More comments will follow.

[Sensuki]

Yes we still have a long way to go.

[IndiraLightfoot]

PJ: Nice to hear that you got lucky with the loot down there. I sure wasn't. While it all feels like a game now, the combat isn't really there yet. Sooner or later, you'll run into draaaaaged out fights, where all your resources/abilities are used up (and so are the enemies), and then the "unfun" begins, hehe. At least, when a battle goes on for RL minutes, the Cipher regains her abilities, which is pretty useful.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Not being able to kite is extremely frustrating. It lessens tactics and seems mainly to (a) be one of those Sawyerisms that fall under the 'strange-idea-of-fun' categories and (b) to mask fairly primitive creature AI.

 

A 'retreat' function that allows you to back away but risk an attack-of-opportunity style hit in return seems fair, and better than what we have now.

 

2nd and 3.X editions of A/D&D's standard rules are both more punitive to ranged characters than melee characters when it comes to moving and continuing to fight.  Pausing Recovery while moving was implemented both to account for movement being something of value that you're trading off with other actions (as it is in A/D&D and a lot of other RPG systems) and to address what became a default easy mode tactic in most of the IE games: fire bows at melee opponent, kite backward until they all drop dead, repeat.  Range gave the advantage of removing your characters entirely from harm at virtually no cost.

 

Some creatures work best as melee only enemies, whether in a tabletop or CRPG environment.  A/D&D tabletop rules generally give melee characters better options for moving and attacking because they lack the positional flexibility that ranged characters enjoy.

 

It may well be that this implementation needs to be adjusted to allow for slower recovery instead of no recovery, but I don't think the basic premise that movement costs something is bizarre or unique to this game system.

[PrimeJunta]

Re moving and recovery, it feels odd not to be able to nock another arrow while moving. On the other hand cranking an arbalest or loading a muzzle-loader while running would be even odder.

 

If it would be possible system-wise, perhaps keep heavy ranged weapons as they are (no reload while moving), but make light ranged weapons--bows, basically--loadable when moving, albeit at a slower rate?

[Sensuki]

Why not just make it so that movement slows recovery for bow and crossbow users and pauses/resets it or whatever it is now for arbalest/gun users?

 

Movement doesn't need to stop recovery for melee at all.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Josh: You're correct about the 2nd/3rd ed, and it's also nice to prevent that backing-off-and-win-by-a-thousand-needle-stings-tactic. Cheesy and boring. Unfortunately, this new system makes it near impossible to at least semi-kite or outright retreat from fights, and weird bugs are introduced because of it. Some sort of "retreat" option like in D:OS would be pretty fitting, no?

[Sarex]

2nd and 3.X editions of A/D&D's standard rules are both more punitive to ranged characters than melee characters when it comes to moving and continuing to fight.  Pausing Recovery while moving was implemented both to account for movement being something of value that you're trading off with other actions (as it is in A/D&D and a lot of other RPG systems) and to address what became a default easy mode tactic in most of the IE games: fire bows at melee opponent, kite backward until they all drop dead, repeat.  Range gave the advantage of removing your characters entirely from harm at virtually no cost.

 

Some creatures work best as melee only enemies, whether in a tabletop or CRPG environment.  A/D&D tabletop rules generally give melee characters better options for moving and attacking because they lack the positional flexibility that ranged characters enjoy.

 

It may well be that this implementation needs to be adjusted to allow for slower recovery instead of no recovery, but I don't think the basic premise that movement costs something is bizarre or unique to this game system.

 

Ok, but then limit the recovery penalty to ranged weapons only. Also I don't remember kitting working for all encounters in the IE games, either the enemy was not kiteable or you were in a limited space (indoors). I think you are overblowing the proportions of the problem here.

[J.E. Sawyer]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

[Monte Carlo]

I just think the lack of a mechanic makes fights pretty static, trench warfare if you will. I understand the idea underpinning the design decision Josh describes, I'm just not sure it adds to the fun as-is.

[Gfted1]

I just think the lack of a mechanic makes fights pretty static, trench warfare if you will. I understand the idea underpinning the design decision Josh describes, I'm just not sure it adds to the fun as-is.

I just use a ranged weapon to kite everyone into the tanks. Works like a champ.

[PrimeJunta]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

Doesn't sound too bad in practice. There are animations for the switches which cost time. Doubtful you could gain a significant advantage that way.

[Sensuki]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

Not if the bow recovery was considered a "reload" like the gun/arbalest is.

 

That way if you switched weapons, when you switched back to the bow, you'd have to finish the bow recovery just like you have to finish the arbalest reload animation.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sarex]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

Put a penalty on switching weapons that is greater then the recovery time.