Matt516 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hello all! A while back, I created a spreadsheet that calculated the effective DPS multiplier from Accuracy. My intent was to allow a way for people to compare MIG and DEX from a damage-doing perspective. We're in the Backer Beta to provide feedback, and our feedback is only as useful as our information. Knowledge is power. Etc.... My spreadsheet was pretty well received. Sparked some good discussion about how the different attributes affect combat dps, and led to some new insights on my part from some errors pointed out by others. So I've taken your feedback into consideration and revamped the spreadsheet, adding new capability. There's now a master calculation sheet where you can vary any and all of these 17 variables: Graze Damage Crit Damage MIG % Damage Bonus/Point MIG % Damage @ 0 DEX Accuracy/point Might Dexterity Base Accuracy (from class) % Damage Bonus (abilities etc) Bonus Accuracy (abilities etc) Weapon Base MIN Damage Weapon Base MAX Damage Attack Speed (frames) Recovery Time (frames) Target Deflection Target DT DT Effectiveness To calculate the resulting dps. Up to 20 different combinations are supported (and you can probably figure out how to add more if you want). My hope is that through the power of crowdsourcing, members of this community will discover new insights about the balance and tuning of PoE's combat and combat stats. Make informative graphs. See how a 25% increase in crit damage and an increase of the DEX Accuracy bonus to 1.5/level will solve all the balance problems!! (I just made that up, but you get the point). The more we know about the actual balance, the more valuable feedback we can give about balance changes. People are arguing elsewhere about really major mechanics that, while important to discuss, probably aren't going to change much. What will change, and what we have the chance to affect and improve, are the tuning changes. So please - use this spreadsheet! Find interesting relationships among the variables! Share your insights with the community. So without further ado, here is the spreadsheet. Enjoy New Excel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29325716/Pillars%20of%20Eternity%20DPS%20calc%20V2.xlsx Old Excel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29325716/Pillars%20of%20Eternity%20DPS%20calc%20V2.xls Unfortunately I think there are some compatibility issues with Google Sheets - if anyone figures out how to make it work, let us know. On to the second part of the post. This will be short, but I wanted to be sure and talk about it really quick. MIG vs DEX. There has been some debate as to if MIG or DEX actually increases your damage more. And as Azrael Ultima pointed out, the marginal benefit of one more point in MIG or DEX is directly dependent on the current value of the other variable. So here's a comparison chart. On the Y axis is the marginal % damage increase (% of BASE damage, mind you - so all %s are based on the same scale) and on the X axis is the current value of Accuracy minus Deflection. As you can see, the math is pretty clear. If Accuracy minus Deflection is greater than 5, MIG is always going to increase your dps more. If Accuracy minus Deflection is less than 5, DEX will usually increase your dps more. Only exception is when Accuracy minus Deflection are between -5 and -20, where the dominating stat depends on your current value of MIG. So it would seem that if you want an optimal build, you don't want to completely dump either - but neither is completely un-viable or always better than the other one either. In particular, note that this basically means more accurate characters will do better against enemies with very high deflection, while more mighty characters will do better against enemies with very low deflection. Kind of makes sense. So (at least at first glance) it looks like these are pretty well balanced, from a dps standpoint at least (there are of course more factors to consider when comparing different stats than just dps). So... that's what I've got for today. Take the spreadsheet - use it to answer "what if?" questions about game balance and tuning. Present insights with the community. Help PoE be the best game it can be. PS - Here's the equations used. Might be slightly simplified from what is used in the spreadsheet (the DT usage I didn't even try because it's literally an entire sheet of the spreadsheet by itself), but the general idea is there. 30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Made me do a double-take whether I accidentally logged onto the League of Legends forum. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 logged onto the League of Legends forum. You are a brave soul sir. 2 "It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Made me do a double-take whether I accidentally logged onto the League of Legends forum. It must have changed a lot in the year or so since I've stopped playing if this kind of post is the norm. O_o 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 It must have changed a lot in the year or so since I've stopped playing if this kind of post is the norm. O_o Nope still the same people talking **** and moaning about elo-hell. Though reddit is a different matter, there are loads of posts like this there. "It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) DotA ist krieg. Shame on you all. Edited August 28, 2014 by Sensuki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 DotA ist krieg. Shame on you all. Meh, it came out too late for me. Valves dota that is and I didn't play the original. I wanna see if I can hit high diamond one in lol and then I will probably drop it for good. "It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Heroes of Newerth was pretty close to DotA during it's beta (2009), before it went free to play. They'd pretty much stuffed the game by release though. Edited August 28, 2014 by Sensuki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy O Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 This is incredible, thank you for doing this! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 This is incredible, thank you for doing this! You're welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constantine Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Great work Matt516, ty. 1 Matilda is a Natlan woman born and raised in Old Vailia. She managed to earn status as a mercenary for being a professional who gets the job done, more so when the job involves putting her excellent fighting abilities to good use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 thank you very much for your efforts. now, although you have already expressed reluctance to do so, if you can explain perception, resolve and interrupts, we will make one o' our famous bigos dishes in your honor. 'course, am doubting we could ship bigos to you, so we would eat it our self, but nevertheless, we would be silently thinking o' you as we enjoyed our meal. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Thank you. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 thank you very much for your efforts. now, although you have already expressed reluctance to do so, if you can explain perception, resolve and interrupts, we will make one o' our famous bigos dishes in your honor. 'course, am doubting we could ship bigos to you, so we would eat it our self, but nevertheless, we would be silently thinking o' you as we enjoyed our meal. HA! Good Fun! Haha I'll keep that in mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordofthesith Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 This is epic knowledge. Thankee, may you ever be strong in the Dork Side of the Force. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 So how is it working for everyone? Any new balance insights to share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 So how is it working for everyone? Any new balance insights to share? as soon as we can get our quest log to not evaporate, we will give it another try. this bug happens regardless of which load screen we use, so... well, we decided that the game were unplayable for now. not your fault o'course and we look forward to experimenting just as soon as obsidian ________ or gets off the pot. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen Rohk Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 My brain has been crushed by the numbers, but this is some damn fine work, sir. Damn fine. You read my post. You have been eaten by a grue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkarov Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 A lot better than the first chart which implied might was always better no matter what. Much more reasonable final conclusion as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curryinahurry Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Wow, great stuff and very helpful...thanks for putting in the work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Re-upload of that plot since the forum appears to have lost it. O_o Also, new version of the spreadsheet coming soon with the attack speed stuff updated to reflect what we learned today from Josh Sawyer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bester Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 It took me 10 minutes to realize this excel file had multiple tabs. Just in case somebody else is as stupid as I am. 1 IE Mod for Pillars of Eternity: link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bester Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The second tab is really cool. I don't understand any of this math, but the second tab understands everything for me. Does anyone know what base accuracy each class has? IE Mod for Pillars of Eternity: link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Yep, they all have too much and it makes Dexterity pretty trivial overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt516 Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Yep, they all have too much and it makes Dexterity pretty trivial overall. I dunno about that... Dexterity's about on par with MIG as far as increasing dps goes. I personally think the starting values are pretty well balanced (though I'd like a character with 25 ranged ACC who isn't the Ranger). EDIT: To elaborate, there aren't diminishing returns persay on Accuracy... it all depends on what the enemy's Deflection value is (as per that chart). In general though, for a character with reasonable MIG, +15 ACC (the difference between 3 and 18 DEX) will still give you a significant amount of damage bonus - 15-25% depending on enemy Deflection and your MIG. It's all about marginal gains. A Fighter might start out with a very good ACC value, but increasing DEX will still get him about as much dps as increasing MIG. Edited September 3, 2014 by Matt516 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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