"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[aeonsim]

Looking at the Wiki it seems like Perception/Interrupt can affect melee attacks as well, so if you make a light damage high Interrupt character (High Dex, Perception and Resolve) with a quick attacking weapon you could decrease the amount of damage your taking by intercepting attacks from slower weapons and disrupting them.

 

So it's possible that Perception's interrupt acts as a damage reducing stat by interrupting enemy attacks as well as a ability interrupting stat. Sure it's a little complex but AD&D is hardly simple.

 

Note with regards to AD&D it's nothing special and people who say how logical it is are clearly forgetting that BG2 was AD&D 2.x, with all the bizarre side effects of that, claiming THACO and the strength system 18/00 18/92 etc makes more logical sense to a new player than a simple Might stat with a clear % increase in damage is silly. Unless your highly familiar with AD&D these looks to be a much cleaner system, sure 3/3.5 clean this up a fair degree but I don't see people talking about NWN when comparing PoE to a previous game.

Edited August 21, 2014 by aeonsim

[termokanden]

Exceptional strength is a terrrible idea, by the way, you couldn't have picked a worse part of the AD&D mechanics

[PrimeJunta]

I think I saw an effect of dumping RES in my previous attempt. I made a back-row druid rocking an arquebus, and when an enemy engaged him the attacks interrupted his reload pretty effectively.

 

If interrupts do interrupt melee attacks as well, and RES is needed to stop that from happening, then hell yes, PER and RES are both vital. Pump PER = stunlock most enemies; dump RES = get stunlocked in most combats.

 

That said, I'm not sure how much fun getting stunlocked is.

[Mrakvampire]

 

They were.

 

Fallout: pump INT and AGI, the rest are cosmetic. OK, STR if you want to use heavy weapons (although there's no reason really because you'll be able to shoot a gnat in the left eyeball soon enough otherwise).

I thought luck was generally considered a tier one stat? Not that it really invalidates your point, I guess: it didn't have the greatest stat balance.

 

 

Stat balance? Guys, are you serious? Stat balance??? Don't make me laugh so hard, it's painful already.

 

There is and never was aim to make ahem... "balanced" game. Balance is required in cybersport, guys, not in single-player cRPG. 

[Mrakvampire]

They were.

 

Fallout: pump INT and AGI, the rest are cosmetic. OK, STR if you want to use heavy weapons (although there's no reason really because you'll be able to shoot a gnat in the left eyeball soon enough otherwise).

 

Arcanum: decide whether you want shoot, melee, throw, magic, or have your buddies do the dirty work for you, and pump the associated attribute. The skill trees even handily tell you when to pump it. If you're a technomancer, never mind INT, just buy those potions from the helpful lady near the city gates; it's useless for anything other than crafting anyway.

 

The main takeaway from those games is that yes, Virginia, it is possible to design an attribute system that's worse than STR-CON-DEX-INT-WIS-CHA.

 

(Great games anyway, though. Especially Fallout.)

 

You've never played melee in Fallout? Low Int characters?

 

decide whether you want shoot, melee, throw, magic, or have your buddies do the dirty work for you, and pump the associated attribute

 

 

You are saying it like... I don't know... maybe you imply that it's somehow bad idea to pump assosiated with your role attribute? Oh no, guys, I can't continue this... :D

[Malekith]

 

 

They were.

 

Fallout: pump INT and AGI, the rest are cosmetic. OK, STR if you want to use heavy weapons (although there's no reason really because you'll be able to shoot a gnat in the left eyeball soon enough otherwise).

I thought luck was generally considered a tier one stat? Not that it really invalidates your point, I guess: it didn't have the greatest stat balance.

 

 

Stat balance? Guys, are you serious? Stat balance??? Don't make me laugh so hard, it's painful already.

 

There is and never was aim to make ahem... "balanced" game. Balance is required in cybersport, guys, not in single-player cRPG. 

 

There is your problem. Sawyer is a big believer of balance, and wants every single stat to be usefull to every class, So each class can tweak the stats every way it wants and still be viable. You don't seem to agree with him in that, but if you cannot accept this design constraint , you will not like PoE system no matter what it will be in the end.

[PrimeJunta]

@Mrakvampire: If stats are unbalanced, it means that you'll always allocate them the same way (for any given class). This is very much the case in D&D.

If you end up with the same stats for each class every time, then why even have stats? Where's the meaningful choice in them? Why not just get rid of them and roll those bonuses directly into the classes? If you're always going to pump STR for your fighter because of to-hit and damage bonuses, why not just get rid of STR and give the fighter those bonuses outright?

 

From where I'm at, stats are only really meaningful for role-play purposes. The D&D ones are fine for PnP. They define what kind of character you're playing. Effectively forcing classes into particular stat distributions detracts from that, rather than improving it. Mechanically they're an unnecessary complication.

[PrimeJunta]

You've never played melee in Fallout? Low Int characters?

Sure I have. To make a good melee character, pump AGI for the action points and INT so you can max out your Melee Weapons (or Unarmed if you prefer) ASAP. Average STR will do just fine. Then just punch/slash them in the eyes.

 

I did play a dumb character once. It was an amusing novelty, but mechanically pretty hopeless.

 

decide whether you want shoot, melee, throw, magic, or have your buddies do the dirty work for you, and pump the associated attribute

You are saying it like... I don't know... maybe you imply that it's somehow bad idea to pump assosiated with your role attribute? Oh no, guys, I can't continue this... :D

I'm saying that a system that has such a thing as a prime requisite (or role attribute as you put it) is dumb. If fighters have to have high STR or wizards have to have high INT, why even bother asking the player to allocate the points? There's no choice involved. "Please specify if you want pie or a kick in the nuts" is a false choice.

[GreyFox]

I think I saw an effect of dumping RES in my previous attempt. I made a back-row druid rocking an arquebus, and when an enemy engaged him the attacks interrupted his reload pretty effectively.

 

If interrupts do interrupt melee attacks as well, and RES is needed to stop that from happening, then hell yes, PER and RES are both vital. Pump PER = stunlock most enemies; dump RES = get stunlocked in most combats.

 

That said, I'm not sure how much fun getting stunlocked is.

 

Quite frankly I don't even understand why there is an interrupt mechanic so core to the stats.

Or why have interrupts like this at all?

[Malekith]

@Mrakvampire: If stats are unbalanced, it means that you'll always allocate them the same way (for any given class). This is very much the case in D&D.

 

If you end up with the same stats for each class every time, then why even have stats? Where's the meaningful choice in them? Why not just get rid of them and roll those bonuses directly into the classes? If you're always going to pump STR for your fighter because of to-hit and damage bonuses, why not just get rid of STR and give the fighter those bonuses outright?

 

From where I'm at, stats are only really meaningful for role-play purposes. The D&D ones are fine for PnP. They define what kind of character you're playing. Effectively forcing classes into particular stat distributions detracts from that, rather than improving it. Mechanically they're an unnecessary complication.

That's why i think this game would be better with the D&D stats used only for dialogue/scripted interactions and without mechanical benefits.

Sawyer's solution doesn't work so far, while alienating the very same people that he included stats for( D&D fans), and even if he manage to somehow make it all work, it was time that could been better used in giving us a ton of abilities and talents as tools to diversify the characters.

Though this far into the project i don't excpect it to help much even if he would go for it, it was a desision that should have been done way back.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Malekith

[Sedrefilos]

I am not a beta participant, but from what I can read there's not too much incentive for certain classes to get stats that are beneficial to them. For example, mage spells benefit from strength, which I find really awkward, unintuitive and superfluous. Str should only matter to mages that engage in physical combat.

It's not strength, it's might and might don't always mean buff muscles. You can be a mighty wizard as well.

[GreyFox]

I can't be the only one who thinks its silly to have 2 stats based on stun locking.

 

Perception and Resolve go more like skills than attributes. Perhaps I'm one of those people who don't "get it" but I don't see anyway that perception is the ability to interrupt something.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perception

 

I perceive that if I kick the Ogre in the junk he will drop his club and not attack me!  Call me crazy but I just don't see this.

 

 

I know I know "Lawl you posted a link to a definition"

Edited August 21, 2014 by GreyFox

[Ondb]

 

I am not a beta participant, but from what I can read there's not too much incentive for certain classes to get stats that are beneficial to them. For example, mage spells benefit from strength, which I find really awkward, unintuitive and superfluous. Str should only matter to mages that engage in physical combat.

It's not strength, it's might and might don't always mean buff muscles. You can be a mighty wizard as well.

 

 

Everybody wants to be mighty. I want to have mighty wizard, mighty fighter, mighty cleric, mighty rogue. I don't want to play non-mighty main character.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ondb

[Ahvz]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perception

 

I perceive that if I kick the Ogre in the junk he will drop his club and not attack me!  Call me crazy but I just don't see this.

 

It's more to spot more subtle openings and weak spots while fighting your enemies, I'd think. Certainly kicking the Ogre in the junk would cause an interrupt, but you have to find a good enough opening to kick him without him blocking you first.

[GreyFox]

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perception

 

I perceive that if I kick the Ogre in the junk he will drop his club and not attack me!  Call me crazy but I just don't see this.

 

It's more to spot more subtle openings and weak spots while fighting your enemies, I'd think. Certainly kicking the Ogre in the junk would cause an interrupt, but you have to find a good enough opening to kick him without him blocking you first.

 

 

Sounds more like DT penetration to me.

[Mrakvampire]

@Mrakvampire: If stats are unbalanced, it means that you'll always allocate them the same way (for any given class). This is very much the case in D&D.

 

If you end up with the same stats for each class every time, then why even have stats? Where's the meaningful choice in them? Why not just get rid of them and roll those bonuses directly into the classes? If you're always going to pump STR for your fighter because of to-hit and damage bonuses, why not just get rid of STR and give the fighter those bonuses outright?

 

From where I'm at, stats are only really meaningful for role-play purposes. The D&D ones are fine for PnP. They define what kind of character you're playing. Effectively forcing classes into particular stat distributions detracts from that, rather than improving it. Mechanically they're an unnecessary complication.

 

You've never played D&D, right? You talk like you have absolutely NO IDEA of how that system work, right? You've never seen moderate STR, but high DEX fighters. Never seen Fighters that have decent INT, cause there were a lot of abilities tied to Combat Expertise feat chain? Why I'm talking to you at all, if you like to talk about things, that you even don't have remote understanding? 

 

No there could be no balance between stats. Never. Some stats are more usefull for certain class, some stats are less usefull, but there is never a situation that every 10 fighters in order to be optimized will have same stats. Absolutely not, cause beyond main role (fighter) there are 10s of subroles that require different stats. Two-handed damage dealer fighter is one type, dual-wealding fighter is another type, archer-fighter is third type, spellcater-bane fighter is 4th type, tank fighter is 5th type, battlefield controller is 6th type...

 

Oh, hell. I'll leave forums for a while and just wait for PoE release. If devs have some brains, they will make changes. If not - ok, I've already paid for that game, and I will probably play it, but I will definitely not support 'addon' or 'expansion' kickstarter. Bottom line, right now, this confusing, non-intuitive system will not add more buyers to this game, thats for sure.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, a system with a single attribute for damage is unintuitive. Let's go ahead and go back to D&D, because, hey, if you bought the right source book you can take an alternate class feature or a few feats that allow you to use your INT like STR, so it's completely flexible. It doesn't matter that it would be stupid to make a video game with so many character options: use it to prove the point anyway. These people obviously don't understand D&D, otherwise they'd see its inherent superiority.

 

Please, don't stick around. There are plenty of people pouting and crying about an attribute system that most people on these boards are fine with. We need less vocal minority around here, so we can actually discuss how to balance the attributes without every thread becoming an argument about turning Pillars of Eternity into Baldur's Gate 3.

[Tartantyco]

Just stop responding to Mrakvampire, Stun, Volourn, Helm, Immortalis, Msxyz, SergioCQH, and Sarex. They just keep repeating the same stuff over and over, and are simply hellbent on hating the game no matter what.

[Polanski]

For me the "no bad builds" philosophy is still a very good idea, a lot of it has to do with balance and that resolve and perception just has too little going for them right now. 

Right now for me the biggest problem is that Stats (and especially racial and culture bonuses) right now doesn't seem to matter that much. In the IE games the stats would truly define the character, where the current system with (negligible) percentage increases seems a lot less important. It is very apparent with the racial bonuses to stats that really only add to the maximum of the character, and as such and Orlan ranger would often have the exact same stats as an Aumaua.

[GreyFox]

 

@Mrakvampire: If stats are unbalanced, it means that you'll always allocate them the same way (for any given class). This is very much the case in D&D.

 

If you end up with the same stats for each class every time, then why even have stats? Where's the meaningful choice in them? Why not just get rid of them and roll those bonuses directly into the classes? If you're always going to pump STR for your fighter because of to-hit and damage bonuses, why not just get rid of STR and give the fighter those bonuses outright?

 

From where I'm at, stats are only really meaningful for role-play purposes. The D&D ones are fine for PnP. They define what kind of character you're playing. Effectively forcing classes into particular stat distributions detracts from that, rather than improving it. Mechanically they're an unnecessary complication.

 

You've never played D&D, right? You talk like you have absolutely NO IDEA of how that system work, right? You've never seen moderate STR, but high DEX fighters. Never seen Fighters that have decent INT, cause there were a lot of abilities tied to Combat Expertise feat chain? Why I'm talking to you at all, if you like to talk about things, that you even don't have remote understanding? 

 

No there could be no balance between stats. Never. Some stats are more usefull for certain class, some stats are less usefull, but there is never a situation that every 10 fighters in order to be optimized will have same stats. Absolutely not, cause beyond main role (fighter) there are 10s of subroles that require different stats. Two-handed damage dealer fighter is one type, dual-wealding fighter is another type, archer-fighter is third type, spellcater-bane fighter is 4th type, tank fighter is 5th type, battlefield controller is 6th type...

 

Oh, hell. I'll leave forums for a while and just wait for PoE release. If devs have some brains, they will make changes. If not - ok, I've already paid for that game, and I will probably play it, but I will definitely not support 'addon' or 'expansion' kickstarter. Bottom line, right now, this confusing, non-intuitive system will not add more buyers to this game, thats for sure.

 

 

Don't get too frustrated and leave it's too early for that.

 

It'll be alright man just have to let them know what you think and that's all you can do.

 

I agree that atm there isn't a good trade off and that playing a "dex" fighter currently probably wouldn't work.

Yes he'd hit "more"(most are hits anyway) but the damage would be lower and since Dex doesn't have the added bonus of defense in this he'd play differently than D&D style Dex fighter.

Hitting more often may not mean too much against high DT with low might? Hard to say.

 

Like I'm not seeing the capabilities of this system to have more of a "dodge" type of "tank" where he causes more attacks to miss rather than just soak up the damage.

 

I guess I'm not a fan of this 'armor/to hit' system.

Edited August 21, 2014 by GreyFox

[Matt516]

I will say that although I'm still a bit iffy of the general power of individual stat points, I do really like what they're trying to do in terms of making all stats useful to all classes (or at least more so than on IE).

 

I want to be sure that comes across. I think the general philosophy they're taking with stat design is stellar, and kind of revolutionary to be honest. I'm only so critical because I want them to get it right.

[Ondb]

Yeah, a system with a single attribute for damage is unintuitive. 

 

Diablo 3 Might attribute experiment and beta does came to conclusion that it is not intuitive system. They had money, time, resources to fully test the idea.

Please go ask then why they did not keep this wonderful one attribute does all in the end.

[Kiel29]

Diablo 3 also understood that if only one stat matters to a class, the game should just automate the stat placement for you because there isn't any point in allocating them differently.

[freche]

 

I am not a beta participant, but from what I can read there's not too much incentive for certain classes to get stats that are beneficial to them. For example, mage spells benefit from strength, which I find really awkward, unintuitive and superfluous. Str should only matter to mages that engage in physical combat.

It's not strength, it's might and might don't always mean buff muscles. You can be a mighty wizard as well.

 

But if said stat also buffs the damage you do with melee weapons it's implied that your character gain muscles by it.

[Ondb]

Diablo 3 also understood that if only one stat matters to a class, the game should just automate the stat placement for you because there isn't any point in allocating them differently.

True. Nobody saying Diablo 3 is good game. I just think that they have big pool of beta testers and they simply don't accept the idea/concept.

Not just mechanics, the perception and expectation of players matters too.