Update #81: The Front Line: Fighters and Barbarians

[rjshae]

That human portrait is quite splendid. I think Sensuki pointed out that it's different from most of the others (at least from Kaz and Polina) but it looks the exact same style as the Eder portrait. And I don't know why people are always talking about the proportions being off ("lips are too wide" or something like that), since humans have WILDLY different facial proportions (whoever thinks those lips are too wide, look at Steven Tyler's youngest daughter's mouth, or Sandra Bernhard's mouth, ).

 

It's a nice overall look because the colors and highlights work well. But yes, some of the proportions are a bit off. Especially the eyes, which seem physiologically too small. Still, it's not something you're going to notice much on a tiny icon.

[Sensuki]

It's *nothing* like the Eder portrait for me.

 

 

Not even remotely the same xD

[Stun]

 

I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask but what is the estimated length of the game you guys are aiming for?

I don't care. I know what I'm aiming for. Let's see now, take the number of classes times one thorough playthrough...

Ah! 782 hours, give or take 53 minutes, 40 seconds and 12 nanoseconds.

 

Hey! That's exactly how I measure game play length too!

 

Also if you multiply that total by the square root of the number of available races, you get...er... lets see 2376 hours, 4 minutes and 18 seconds.

 

Looks like I'll have to hibernate all winter.

[Sedrefilos]

If you would like to learn more about the demo and what was shown, take a read through some of these great articles:

 

Why don't you just show us what you showed to them and then we'll make our own great articles and oppinions.

[Mor]

Attributes are purely additive, so you can't get a 0/negative area, but you could certainly have circumstances where the same group of enemies could be Carnage'd by an 18 Int barbarian but not by a 6 Int barbarian.

You previously mentioned that we use a point buy system during character creation, is this ^ just an example, or means that we will be able to adjust our ability score as low as 6 or as high as 18?

 

In the Eastern Reach, barbarians most often come from Eir Glanfath, though some can be found in rural Dyrwoodan communities or drifting in from abroad through port cities like Defiance Bay and New Heomar.

So New Heomar is a Dyrwoodan port city, is it part of the domain of one of the ducs you mentioned before (Ethgowr,Ungradr,Gathbin,Manhem,Rafendr) or another one? Edited June 26, 2014 by Mor

[Bryy]

 

If you would like to learn more about the demo and what was shown, take a read through some of these great articles:

 

Why don't you just show us what you showed to them and then we'll make our own great articles and oppinions.

 

You still have your opinion. 

[Mannock]

 

 

 

Why don't you just show us what you showed to them and then we'll make our own great articles and oppinions.

 

 

Because there would be a vocal minroity crapping all over the video. Which would be a shame.

[Sedrefilos]

Mannock:

"Because there would be a vocal minroity crapping all over the video. Which would be a shame."

 

 

I was asking BAdler, btw

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sedrefilos

[Mor]

and BAdler has answered. Now can we please get on topic, because it starts to feel like the art update which went sideways with people obsessing over boobs armor

Edited June 26, 2014 by Mor

[Helz]

I'm a little disappointed that warriors are "low maintenance".  I'd think being on the frontline would require extra attention, not less.  I understand that some classes need to be easier to play I guess, but I was hoping you'd make them more fun to play.  Also, the shield bonuses are pretty bad, I really hope you guys have time to add fighting styles and make them more interesting. 

 

On the positive side, barbarians sound very cool.  I'm not so sure about the obscured stamina/health bar.  Do other status effects mess with the UI?  If not, its kind of strange. 

[Sensuki]

I'm a little disappointed that warriors are "low maintenance".  I'd think being on the frontline would require extra attention, not less.  I understand that some classes need to be easier to play I guess, but I was hoping you'd make them more fun to play.

 

Pretty sure you can buy more active abilities via the Talent system.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Baudolino05]

I'm a little disappointed that warriors are "low maintenance".  I'd think being on the frontline would require extra attention, not less.  I understand that some classes need to be easier to play I guess, but I was hoping you'd make them more fun to play.  

 

Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

Edited June 26, 2014 by Baudolino05

[Valorian]

I'm a little disappointed that warriors are "low maintenance".  I'd think being on the frontline would require extra attention, not less.  I understand that some classes need to be easier to play I guess, but I was hoping you'd make them more fun to play.

I disagree. It's neat that some classes, like fighters and barbarians, are predominantly made of passive abilities. After all, you can have up to 6 characters in your party and that's a lot of micromanaging.

 

 

I really hope you guys have time to add fighting styles and make them more interesting.

Yes, I think that most people tend to have a (strong) preference for one of the four fighting styles and having talents to support this choice would be a good thing. Frankly, it seems a bit odd to me that other optional talents have pushed fighting styles into 'if there's time' territory. 

 

Regarding shields. In most party-based rpgs, a substantial bonus to defense for your front-liner is invaluable. While, and if, this one character holds the line, you can attack your opponents with 5 other people. For this reason, not giving giant bonuses to shields (like + 5 AC / +25 deflection) would be preferable, IMO.

[Mannock]

Mannock:

"Because there would be a vocal minroity crapping all over the video. Which would be a shame."

 

 

I was asking BAdler, btw

 

Send a pm if you don't wish others to comment on what you write.

[Bryy]

Mannock:

"Because there would be a vocal minroity crapping all over the video. Which would be a shame."

 

 

I was asking BAdler, btw

The developers are not personally accountable to you.

 

To clarify, you quoted BAdler's answer, meaning you were not looking for anything but to start a fight.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Bryy

[Lephys]

It's a nice overall look because the colors and highlights work well. But yes, some of the proportions are a bit off. Especially the eyes, which seem physiologically too small.

I've seen real-life people with smaller eyes. Plus, they're in profile... maybe she has relatively wide, lazy-ish eyes? Who knows.

 

Obviously everyone's welcome to their opinion, but it seems a little odd to me that, instead of saying "I dunno... I don't really like the size of the eyes, etc.", multiple people are all jumping on it as if pointing out a crooked doorframe. "Yep, that's definitely, concretely, flawed. It should be perfect 90-degrees." When the human anatomy allows for quite a range of proportions.

 

I don't understand the extent of the issue being had with it, namely, the certainty of its straying from some very rigid set of blueprints. Personally, I just find it a little odd, and, for lack of a better word, "nitpicky," since it seems to be saying "a human female could not possibly look like that."

 

It's *nothing* like the Eder portrait for me.

 

Not even remotely the same xD

It looks at least remotely similar to me. Eder's obviously rougher, but the general approach to the human looks decently similar. *shrug*

[vv221]

Woah, just fell in love with "pe-portrait-female-human-580.jpg"!

I still don't know which class will my first character be, but I definitely know which portrait she will use

 

I'd go as far as to say that people thinking she has anything disturbing about her looks just have utterly bad taste…

 

(no offence intended, it is your right to not see the beauty even when it is that obvious)

[nipsen]

The portrait was done by an artist we hired and not by our in-house team.

Hm. I thought it was a really good portrait of a soldier's face.

 

* Single Weapon - Standard attack rate, all attacks made with +15 Accuracy.

..and will accuracy affect how likely the attack is to cause full damage attacks and criticals as well, instead of just adding to the hit-percent?

[ShadySands]

^

 

Ahh, spiffy! So the game doesn't just say "Oh, I see that roll against you was a 90. That would've been a critical hit, but since you've got Critical Defense active, only this foe's attack rolls above 95 are crits, as opposed to above 85 (example numbers...)". Good to know. I like it better applied to each roll, instead of just being applied to that foe's attack resolution table.

 

Yeah, the way we display the non-verbose final roll is always relative to the standard ranges: Miss on <=5, Graze on 6-50, Hit on 51-95, Crit on >=96.  Defense is subtracted from Accuracy and then applied as a modifier to the roll itself.  E.g. the attacker has 52 Accuracy and the defender has 30 Defense.  The difference is 22.  Three attacks happen in sequence.  The actual rolls are 65, 43, and 84.  Those are modified to 85 (Hit), 65 (Hit), and 106 (Crit).  There are two exceptions to this: a natural roll of <=5 can never be better than a Graze and a natural roll of >=96 can never be worse than a Hit, no matter how much the table gets skewed.

 

[rjshae]

 

It's a nice overall look because the colors and highlights work well. But yes, some of the proportions are a bit off. Especially the eyes, which seem physiologically too small.

I've seen real-life people with smaller eyes. Plus, they're in profile... maybe she has relatively wide, lazy-ish eyes? Who knows.

 

Obviously everyone's welcome to their opinion, but it seems a little odd to me that, instead of saying "I dunno... I don't really like the size of the eyes, etc.", multiple people are all jumping on it as if pointing out a crooked doorframe. "Yep, that's definitely, concretely, flawed. It should be perfect 90-degrees." When the human anatomy allows for quite a range of proportions.

 

I don't understand the extent of the issue being had with it, namely, the certainty of its straying from some very rigid set of blueprints. Personally, I just find it a little odd, and, for lack of a better word, "nitpicky," since it seems to be saying "a human female could not possibly look like that."

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with critiquing art, as long as it is done constructively.

[Helz]

 

Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

Regarding shields. In most party-based rpgs, a substantial bonus to defense for your front-liner is invaluable. While, and if, this one character holds the line, you can attack your opponents with 5 other people. For this reason, not giving giant bonuses to shields (like + 5 AC / +25 deflection) would be preferable, IMO.

 

When I said I thought the shield bonuses were pretty bad, I didn't necessarily mean that they aren't strong enough.  More like they aren't very inspired.  I think they should have more tactical use.  For instance, say a shield user can block barbarians and rogues from rushing past him within a certain distance.  Then you could line up three warriors with shields and have a viable shield wall.  Or at least make them more resistant to ranged attacks.  Or reduce chance to be critted unless flanked.  There are a bunch of ways to make it more interesting.

 

edit: I don't want to make it sound like I'm all negative btw.  One thing I really like is the multi-weapon specializations.  That's awesome.   

Edited June 27, 2014 by Helz

[ManifestedISO]

 

Ah! 782 hours, give or take 53 minutes, 40 seconds and 12 nanoseconds.

 

 

749 hours is my current Skyrim total. I bet I could match it with Eternity. Well ... once the expansions come out.  

Edited June 27, 2014 by ManifestedISO

[Silent Winter]

 

On the positive side, barbarians sound very cool.  I'm not so sure about the obscured stamina/health bar.  Do other status effects mess with the UI?  If not, its kind of strange. 

I think it's to simulate the "I'm out of control and running on adrenaline" side of things - the barbarian doesn't notice how badly he's hurt until he stops - then he may find that he's got nothing left, rather than saying "Oh, my stamina is a bit low, I'd better pull back for tactical reasons."

I think it adds an interesting element to using the ability - it's powerful but you lose some control.

[Baudolino05]

 

 

Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

 

 

If you have to rely on companion A.I. in a game where you are supposed to be in charge of a whole party, there something wrong in its systems. PoE is not an MMO nor a single character RPG. The whole point of a party based game is the squad management. It doesn't matter how "fun" is to play a specific class (leaving alone the fact that a low-maintenance class could be as fun as any other class). What's matter is how "fun" is to control the entire squad, which is what you do all the time as a player - and relying on A.I. is the antithesis of fun, even if the A.I. in question is really good.

It's not by accident that in the old I.E. games the only classes that required real management were casters. Melee fighters didn't required management at all. PoE already enhanced the original formula. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Baudolino05

[DCParry]

 

 

 

Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

 

 

If you have to rely on companion A.I. in a game where you are supposed to be in charge of a whole party, there something wrong in its systems. PoE is not an MMO nor a single character RPG. The whole point of a party based game is the squad management. It doesn't matter how "fun" is to play a specific class (leaving alone the fact that a low-maintenance class could be as fun as any other class). What's matter is how "fun" is to control the entire squad, which is what you do all the time as a player - and relying on A.I. is the antithesis of fun, even if the A.I. in question is really good.

It's not by accident that in the old I.E. games the only classes that required real management were casters. Melee fighters didn't required management at all. PoE already enhanced the original formula. 

 

 

You have a very narrow definition of party management. Perhaps someone finds a great deal of satisfaction in picking talents, equipment, and tactics that allow the non-PC party members to succeed without immediate microcontrol. The effort and the planning that went into such an approach is not a less valid way to the game. 

 

Also, while you may consider such an approach "the anthesis of fun" you are just stating your own preference. Someone else's definition of fun might be vastly different than yours.