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Update #81: The Front Line: Fighters and Barbarians

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So I need to try out worse builds to find out if this great build that the community and what's on paper is better? Lephys logic at work. I don't need to play it. Why would I waste my time going through all the steps of creating with what turns out to be a lesser character (on paper) and then playing the game to find out that, Yes this isn't as good as the build that's been posted on the forum, what's on paper, and the community agrees is one of the best. I wouldn't waste my time to try and prove them wrong. But you can spend your time trying to do that.

Well, if you felt that definitely having the best build was more important than just not having a crappy build, you'd probably figure it out for yourself. If you felt it was a waste of time, you'd probably just take their word for it.

 

I don't know what "on paper" has to do with anything, since, unless you read through extensive notes of theirs, and essentially test those builds out with your own brain (even if you don't actually playtest them in the game to determine such things), then you're basically just taking people's word for it.

 

Either way, you didn't even address the fact that "best" is kind of a dependent term. The "best" build for a Ranger might be hardcore damage-dealing, OR more of a support role, depending on the rest of your party's makeup, how you're playing, what equipment you use, etc.

 

That's like asking what the best tool in the toolbox is. Is it the hammer, or the pliers? Kinda depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and what the circumstances are.

 

It's not really as simple as "Lolz! This is the best build. See, it's at 100 goodness, and the next best build is only at 97 goodness!" It's not like you just measure them with a best-ometer, and one has a higher reading. :)

 

Also, why are you attributing my name to logic? I think it was around before I was born. I suppose I could be an immortal being who created logic and is simply suffering from amnesia. *shrug*

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Well, if you felt that definitely having the best build was more important than just not having a crappy build, you'd probably figure it out for yourself. If you felt it was a waste of time, you'd probably just take their word for it.

 

I don't know what "on paper" has to do with anything, since, unless you read through extensive notes of theirs, and essentially test those builds out with your own brain (even if you don't actually playtest them in the game to determine such things), then you're basically just taking people's word for it.

 

Either way, you didn't even address the fact that "best" is kind of a dependent term. The "best" build for a Ranger might be hardcore damage-dealing, OR more of a support role, depending on the rest of your party's makeup, how you're playing, what equipment you use, etc.

 

That's like asking what the best tool in the toolbox is. Is it the hammer, or the pliers? Kinda depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and what the circumstances are.

 

It's not really as simple as "Lolz! This is the best build. See, it's at 100 goodness, and the next best build is only at 97 goodness!" It's not like you just measure them with a best-ometer, and one has a higher reading. :)

 

Also, why are you attributing my name to logic? I think it was around before I was born. I suppose I could be an immortal being who created logic and is simply suffering from amnesia. *shrug*

 

 

If I wanted to play one of the best builds in the game, why would I spend months play testing many different builds when it's already on the forum and been tested already? And the reasons by those players constantly tweaking this or that and coming to an agreement that this is one of the best builds to play with? And you don't need to read extensive notes. A summary is all that's needed with logical reasoning behind why a build would be one of the best. So it's not just taking their word for it. It's reading the reasoning behind it as well.

 

For example. Part of powergaming IWD2 is you can take a level 1 Rogue, multiclass to another class like Mage (which is what I do) and then take that character throughout the game and keep that character at a Level 1 Rogue and still open every lock, find and disarm every trap in the game. All you're doing when you level up your Mage is putting points in both Mage and Rogue skills. But the Rogue is still level 1.

 

Before I even tested this, it made sense. There was logical reasoning behind this and I didn't need to read extensive notes. And when I played it, I thought  yeah this works and I never have to level up my Rogue levels. Basically, I have a Mage that can open every lock and find and disarm every trap in the game.

 

And are you seriously going to question that some builds are not going to be better than other builds? Even Josh Sawyer has confirmed some builds are better than others. Don't take my word for it. Take Josh's word. So yes, there will be builds that will be better than other builds, even though you're trying to state otherwise. 

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And are you seriously going to question that some builds are not going to be better than other builds?

Nope. I'm simply questioning the simplicity of "best build," in absolutely no context whatsoever. And I personally feel that the efforts toward build-option viability in the game's design matters a good deal, and that a plethora of builds are all going to be quite different and enjoyable, yet offer remarkably similar levels of "best"ness. That's all.

 

That's all I questioned from the get-go, because I feel it's a worthwhile question to consider. Instead of just thinking "Meh, a couple of builds will somehow allow you to just annihilate the crap out of everything with a sweep of your hand, and people are just going to post those online, and then that'll be that."

 

Obviously you don't feel it's worthwhile, which is totally your prerogative. You said your part. I said mine. Yay for discussion! Sharing is caring. :)


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'd been playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons since I was 13 (in 1986) and had also played many of the D&D gold box games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, and others) as well as Wizardry and Bard's Tale games, and I certainly found that Baldur's Gate 2 had some very challenging battes.

Yep. Same. And there's a good reason for that. The only kind of edge that having years of familiarity with D&D will give you in the IE games is that you'll hit the ground running. There will be no learning curve. You'll know what spells are best; you'll know what class builds are optimal (ie. fighters need Strength, Clerics need wisdom etc); And you'll what kind of party composition to use to insure that you'll always have the bases covered.

 

And that's all. Vast D&D experience will not fully prepare you for everything you'll be facing in BG2. Only meta-knowledge can do that. When you're in Kangaxx's tomb for the first time and he appears, your pen and paper experience of Tomb of Horrors will not make that fight easier. Chances are you'll still suffer a total party wipe your first time because you didn't know that you were about to face a Demi-lich, and on the off chance that you managed to guess correctly, your D&D knowledge still won't help you because Kangaxx breaks all the AD&D lore on Demiliches. He's NOT by the book.

 

 

Baudolino05 is spouting nonsense.

Edited by Stun
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Nope. I'm simply questioning the simplicity of "best build," in absolutely no context whatsoever. And I personally feel that the efforts toward build-option viability in the game's design matters a good deal, and that a plethora of builds are all going to be quite different and enjoyable, yet offer remarkably similar levels of "best"ness. That's all.

 

That's all I questioned from the get-go, because I feel it's a worthwhile question to consider. Instead of just thinking "Meh, a couple of builds will somehow allow you to just annihilate the crap out of everything with a sweep of your hand, and people are just going to post those online, and then that'll be that."

 

Obviously you don't feel it's worthwhile, which is totally your prerogative. You said your part. I said mine. Yay for discussion! Sharing is caring. :)

 

 

I'm not questioning that a plethora of builds are all going to be quite different and enjoyable. What has been confirmed and not by me is that some builds are better than others. This can't be refuted even though you're trying to say otherwise. You're arguing against Obsidian dev's who have stated this.

 

And people will post some of those builds that will be some of the best in the game. This is a normal part of these games. To optimise and get the best out of your classes/characters.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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This can't be refuted even though you're trying to say otherwise. You're arguing against Obsidian dev's who have stated this.

Well, 2 + 2 does equal 4, and that can't be refuted, even though you're trying to say otherwise.

 

See, I can do it, too. 8)

 

As always, it was a pleasure having a perfectly reasonable discussion with you. ^_^


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Like what? Assuming that you did the 3 things I listed in my previous post, what battle challenged you? 

Aside from Kangaxx, The Twisted Rune, and the various dragons? (kinda hard to spam spells early when you've been wing buffeted) Ok, how about....The Kayardi, Mogadish and co. Battle in the Planar Sphere. That battle challenged me immensely on my first BG2 playthough. So I have a question. How exactly did you "cakewalk" yourself to a victory in that one on your first playthough? (well, besides having one hand on your mouse and the other hand feverishly flipping through the strategy guide?)

 

Did your Vast D&D knowledge tip you off that one of those halflings would have an unlimited range psyonic attack that only 1 spell in the entire game can defend against? And that another would be an 18th level arch mage? (Halfling arch mages. were those common in your pen and paper campaigns?)

 

Lets talk about the first time you did BG1's Durlag's tower. Did your decades of D&D rule set experience help your casters spot and disarm every single trap in that dungeon? And if not, then how can you call something a cakewalk when it catches you unaware and wipes half your party out in a split second?

 

 

can you honestly tell me that - rare circumstances aside - BG2 is not a cakewalk if you: 1) have at least 3 casters in your party; 2) Cast as many buff as you can before entering in a big battle 3) Cast your best spells as fast as you can? [/size][/font]

Well, I'd say any high level Golem mob battle won't be a cakewalk on the first playthough of BG2, if you're using a party of mostly casters who spam spells as fast as they can. I'd also point to the dead magic zones in Watchers keep. And I'd remind you that BG2 took great liberties with the implementation of its spell effects. Knowing D&D will not automatically tip you off to just how useful any given spell is or isn't in bg2. Again, only metagaming will. Edited by Stun
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Well, 2 + 2 does equal 4, and that can't be refuted, even though you're trying to say otherwise.

 

See, I can do it, too. 8)

 

As always, it was a pleasure having a perfectly reasonable discussion with you. ^_^

 

 

ah Lephys. The last gasps of a person who is struggling to argue their point. When I point out even the Obsidian dev's have confirmed that some builds will be better than other builds you don't want to acknowledge that. :)

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I found Bg2 pretty easy on my first time playing, but I did import a very powerful character from Bg1.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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ah Lephys. The last gasps of a person who is struggling to argue their point. When I point out even the Obsidian dev's have confirmed that some builds will be better than other builds you don't want to acknowledge that. :)

Exactly, Hiro. Precisely. The devs are obviously wrong. It's impossible that they've confirmed that, and I absolutely refuse to acknowledge that any one build will be any better, at all, than any other build, in any way, shape, or fashion. I've totally been saying that exact thing this entire time, which is why you can find all of these words in all of my previous posts in this thread.

 

How ever did you guess? I was trying to be as cryptic as possible, as always, so I seemingly just pointed out the complexity of what makes a build "the best," when really all I was trying to say was simply the above, the whole time. Sometimes I want to say "hi," but I instead say something like "dolphin." I don't know what's wrong with me... -___-


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'd been playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons since I was 13 (in 1986) and had also played many of the D&D gold box games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, and others) as well as Wizardry and Bard's Tale games, and I certainly found that Baldur's Gate 2 had some very challenging battes, and I never played the game with less than a party of six.

 

 

Like what? Assuming that you did the 3 things I listed in my previous post, what battle challenged you? 

 

Here are some:

 

The battle with the demi liche.

The battle with the liche whose tomb is behind a secret door in an inn.

Some of the battles in the underdark against the mind flayers.

 

Those are probably not the only ones, but the ones that stick out in my mind. I did win all of those battles, but first I had to find a place to rest, memorize spells which could help my party specifically with those situations, drink helpful potions et.

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Like what? Assuming that you did the 3 things I listed in my previous post, what battle challenged you? 

Aside from Kangaxx, The Twisted Rune, and the various dragons? (kinda hard to spam spells early when you've been wing buffeted) Ok, how about....The Kayardi, Mogadish and co. Battle in the Planar Sphere. That battle challenged me immensely on my first BG2 playthough. So I have a question. How exactly did you "cakewalk" yourself to a victory in that one on your first playthough? (well, besides having one hand on your mouse and the other hand feverishly flipping through the strategy guide?)

 

Did your Vast D&D knowledge tip you off that one of those halflings would have an unlimited range psyonic attack that only 1 spell in the entire game can defend against? And that another would be an 18th level arch mage? (Halfling arch mages. were those common in your pen and paper campaigns?)

 

Lets talk about the first time you did BG1's Durlag's tower. Did your decades of D&D rule set experience help your casters spot and disarm every single trap in that dungeon? And if not, then how can you call something a cakewalk when it catches you unaware and wipes half your party out in a split second?

 

 

can you honestly tell me that - rare circumstances aside - BG2 is not a cakewalk if you: 1) have at least 3 casters in your party; 2) Cast as many buff as you can before entering in a big battle 3) Cast your best spells as fast as you can? [/size][/font]

Well, I'd say any high level Golem mob battle won't be a cakewalk on the first playthough of BG2, if you're using a party of mostly casters who spam spells as fast as they can. I'd also point to the dead magic zones in Watchers keep. And I'd remind you that BG2 took great liberties with the implementation of its spell effects. Knowing D&D will not automatically tip you off to just how useful any given spell is or isn't in bg2. Again, only metagaming will.

 

 

Rare circumstances aside. And traps, seriously? Do you really think traps are a threat in I.E. games?

I'll pass on dragons, that - assuming you have a decent level and can properly buff yourself - are cakewalks in ALL D&D games.  

Maybe I'm strange, but if I have 5 challenging battles in a game with hundreds of battles, I still considering it cakewalk. Same goes if I died once in a battle because I enter it unprepared and then crush the enemies that killed me with ease. 

Edited by Baudolino05

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Rare circumstances aside.

Rare circumstances? I just listed virtually half the boss battles in chapter 2/3. And Golems are Common. Kangaxx guards the ring of Gaxx and The Twisted Rune guard the Staff of the magi. And the Kayardi/Entu/Mogadish encounter is not even optional if one of your casters wishes to acquire the Mage stronghold. Moreover, you're lying to yourself and everyone here if you claim that any of them are cakewalks, especially when they're done straight out of Irenicus' dungeon on a first playthrough....which the game allows.

 

This is what BG2's combat picture is about. You can't just brush these things off as "exceptions" or "rare circumstances". They define BG2.

 

 

And traps, seriously? Do you really think traps are a threat in I.E. games?

I don't *think* they're a threat. They are OBJECTIVELY a threat. Even to players on their 600th playthrough. They're a threat by definition. Durlag's tower, for example, has at least 2 traps that are total party insta-kills with no saving throw and a disarm requirement of 90. Also, there are dozens of lightning bolt traps placed in narrow, indoor areas. They also equate to instant kills for those not protected from electricity, due to the way Bioware has decided to implement the ricochet effect with lightning bolt.

 

And BG2? BG2 has the spectrum. There are Imprisonment traps. (No saving throw and no MR resistance checks for those.) There are finger of death traps, disintegrate traps. Level drain traps. (Yaga Shura's temple has 2 level drain traps that cannot be disarmed)

 

You can....LIE, again, and claim that, on your first playthrough, you managed find & disarm, or avoid, or resist them all with cakewalk ease. But you'd be doing just that: Lying....to a crowd of people who know better.

 

 

I'll pass on dragons, that - assuming you have a decent level...

Aah! and here come the caveats. Cakewalk, my ass. The game provides us a legit challenge from the outset. So lets (via meta gaming) hold off on doing those challenges until we're powerful enough, then lets come here and complain that the game is a cakewalk.

 

I beg your pardon, sir, but isn't that the cost of using spell casters? That they're very ordinary early on, and only come to true power later? Well there you go. BG2 is not a cakewalk. You have to pay your dues to achieve such combat dominance.

 

 

Maybe I'm strange, but if I have 5 challenging battles in game with hundreds of battles, I still considering it cakewalk.

Straw man.

Edited by Stun
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One of the biggest criticisms from a lot of posters on this forum in the last year (or at least since the PoE Kickstarter ended and we had an influx of new people to the forums) is how the BG games had 'hard' encounters in the games and you didn't know what to expect going into those encounters. And posters crying foul when there's no hints. And a lot of posters saying you need x spell prepared or y spell pre-buffed on characters or something else and if you didn't, you would have half your party killed. The cries of 'no fair' and how PoE would change all that.

 

Then we have someone like Baudolino05 who didn't have any battles that challenged him (maybe a couple of rare occurrences) and skips his way through the BG games and it's all a bit of a cakewalk on his first play through. Seemingly knows what spells to memorise, what spells to pre-buff with and what tactics to use before each encounter. Nope, no challenge at all.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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^Indeed. But the real punchline is in the fact that people expecting a tougher challenge than what we got in the IE games will be spectacularly disappointed. Josh Sawyer has already said that he's designing PoE to be easier than Icewind Dale 2.

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^Indeed. But the real punchline is in the fact that people expecting a tougher challenge than what we got in the IE games will be spectacularly disappointed. Josh Sawyer has already said that he's designing PoE to be easier than Icewind Dale 2.

It'll be even easier than most people expect since it's basically impossible to make a bad build. Josh said the game will be as tough as Bg2, but he was likely thinking of Bg2 with a competent pc setup. One of my friends made a crappy pc in Bg2 and had a much tougher time than he would have in poe. I'll be playing poe on hard mode on my first play through; I recommend the same to any IE veteran who likes a challenge.

 

As for the update: The fighter seems cool.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Yeah my first playthrough is probably going to be a notch below path of the damned.

Never played path of the damned. Could you give me an idea of how tough that is compared to IWD2 or BG2?


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Never played path of the damned. Could you give me an idea of how tough that is compared to IWD2 or BG2?

 

Have you ever played IWD2 in Heart of Fury mode? It should be as tough as that, or just below.

Edited by Sarex
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Never played path of the damned. Could you give me an idea of how tough that is compared to IWD2 or BG2?

 

Have you ever played IWD2 in Heart of Fury mode? It should be as though as that, or just below.

I see. Seems pretty tough for a first time through. You got guts owl; I am impressed with your moxy.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I'd been playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons since I was 13 (in 1986) and had also played many of the D&D gold box games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, and others) as well as Wizardry and Bard's Tale games, and I certainly found that Baldur's Gate 2 had some very challenging battes, and I never played the game with less than a party of six.

 

 

Like what? Assuming that you did the 3 things I listed in my previous post, what battle challenged you? 

 

Here are some:

 

The battle with the demi liche.

The battle with the liche whose tomb is behind a secret door in an inn.

Some of the battles in the underdark against the mind flayers.

 

Those are probably not the only ones, but the ones that stick out in my mind. I did win all of those battles, but first I had to find a place to rest, memorize spells which could help my party specifically with those situations, drink helpful potions et.

 

 

Liches are a challenge only if you fight them under-leveled. Maybe they are little-bit annoying while they are under protection against normal and magical weapons, but nothing that a good cleric can't handle with ease. Mind-Flayers ARE annoying in a standard D&D fare. You just need a good protection against their attacks, to avoid intelligence drain. 

 

Rare circumstances aside.

Rare circumstances? I just listed virtually half the boss battles in chapter 2/3. And Golems are Common. Kangaxx guards the ring of Gaxx and The Twisted Rune guard the Staff of the magi. And the Kayardi/Entu/Mogadish encounter is not even optional if one of your casters wishes to acquire the Mage stronghold. Moreover, you're lying to yourself and everyone here if you claim that any of them are cakewalks, especially when they're done straight out of Irenicus' dungeon on a first playthrough....which the game allows.

 

This is what BG2's combat picture is about. You can't just brush these things off as "exceptions" or "rare circumstances". They define BG2.

 

 

And traps, seriously? Do you really think traps are a threat in I.E. games?

I don't *think* they're a threat. They are OBJECTIVELY a threat. Even to players on their 600th playthrough. They're a threat by definition. Durlag's tower, for example, has at least 2 traps that are total party insta-kills with no saving throw and a disarm requirement of 90. Also, there are dozens of lightning bolt traps placed in narrow, indoor areas. They also equate to instant kills for those not protected from electricity, due to the way Bioware has decided to implement the ricochet effect with lightning bolt.

 

And BG2? BG2 has the spectrum. There are Imprisonment traps. (No saving throw and no MR resistance checks for those.) There are finger of death traps, disintegrate traps. Level drain traps. (Yaga Shura's temple has 2 level drain traps that cannot be disarmed)

 

You can....LIE, again, and claim that, on your first playthrough, you managed find & disarm, or avoid, or resist them all with cakewalk ease. But you'd be doing just that: Lying....to a crowd of people who know better.

 

 

I'll pass on dragons, that - assuming you have a decent level...

Aah! and here come the caveats. Cakewalk, my ass. The game provides us a legit challenge from the outset. So lets (via meta gaming) hold off on doing those challenges until we're powerful enough, then lets come here and complain that the game is a cakewalk.

 

I beg your pardon, sir, but isn't that the cost of using spell casters? That they're very ordinary early on, and only come to true power later? Well there you go. BG2 is not a cakewalk. You have to pay your dues to achieve such combat dominance.

 

 

Maybe I'm strange, but if I have 5 challenging battles in game with hundreds of battles, I still considering it cakewalk.

Straw man.

 

Sorry, Stun, but I can't help but laugh at some of the things you wrote.  I don't mean to offend, but I'm under the impression that after you countless playtroughs you still haven't learn how  to take advantage of buff/defense chains, which is something that any AD&D player learns after a couple of campaigns. So, let's cut the crap: if you really think that Baldur's Gate 2 is a challenging game, live in peace with this conviction.  The next-time I solo-play it I'll think to you...

 

Friendly suggestion: have a try with Knights of the chalice, if you really wanna see a D&D game that CONSISTENTLY challenges you (despite its inherent lack of class balance and the  abundance of dragons)  

Edited by Baudolino05

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Liches are a challenge only if you fight them under-leveled.[/font]

Say what? Liches are standard Chapter 2 bestiary material. They're available for any character who just exited Chateau Irenicus to fight. And most first time BG2 players DO Run right into the Lich at the city gate tavern early.

 

Your claim was that Combat in BG2 is a cake walk. So why are you now saying that common chapter 2 encounters in BG2 can ever be a challenge for someone with a D&D background?

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, Stun, but I can't help but laugh at some of the things you wrote.  I don't mean to offend, but I'm under the impression that after you countless playtroughs you still haven't learn how  to take advantage of buff/defense chains, which is something that any AD&D player learns after a couple of campaigns. So, let's cut the crap: if you really think that Baldur's Gate 2 is a challenging game, live in peace with this conviction.  The next-time I solo-play it I'll think to you...[/size][/font]

LOL

 

<sigh> You are a disgustingly dishonest debater. And you have *twice* admitted, without even realizing it, that *even you* see BG2 as an unusually (even unfairly) difficult game for first playthrough gamers. And I'm going to prove it.

 

Ok, The standard character level upon completion of Irenicus' dungeon is 8th level (9th if you imported from BG1, 10th if you imported and you soloed the dungeon). Lets use the last one. Suppose you're a 10th level Wizard (or sorcerer or cleric, or any spell caster). You gather equal level companions. Lets say, 2 more mages (Edwin and Nalia or Jan) Or any party of 6 or less you want. But they are 10th level.

 

Now, lets say you rush to the tavern at the city gates to take on the Lich there. (liches are quite common in BG2. They're everywhere. So don't even try to peddle that moronic "rare occasion" nonsense on us again)

 

Do tell me how you're going to defeat it, considering that Liches in Bg2 are immune all spells 6th level or lower, and no one in your party possesses spells beyond 5th level. Oh, and do make sure you can do it in 20 rounds or less and that you don't use any obvious metagaming knowledge that someone playing BG2 for the first time couldn't possibly have. After all, BG2 is a Cakewalk. Shouldn't take much effort for someone with a D&D background to dispose of a generic LICH in BG2. Should it?

 

The podium is yours, my chain-buffing BG2 God.

Edited by Stun
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Sorry, Stun, but I can't help but laugh at some of the things you wrote.  I don't mean to offend, but I'm under the impression that after you countless playtroughs you still haven't learn how  to take advantage of buff/defense chains, which is something that any AD&D player learns after a couple of campaigns. So, let's cut the crap: if you really think that Baldur's Gate 2 is a challenging game, live in peace with this conviction.  The next-time I solo-play it I'll think to you...[/size][/font]

LOL

 

<sigh> You are a disgustingly dishonest debater. And you have *twice* admitted, without even realizing it, that *even you* see BG2 as an unusually (even unfairly) difficult game for first playthrough gamers. And I'm going to prove it.

 

Ok, The standard character level upon completion of Irenicus' dungeon is 8th level (9th if you imported from BG1, 10th if you imported and you soloed the dungeon). Lets use the last one. Suppose you're a 10th level Wizard (or sorcerer). You gather equal level companions. Lets say, 2 more mages ( say.. Edwin and Nalia or Jan) The rest of your party is totally up to you. But they are 10th level.

 

Now, lets say you rush to the tavern at the city gates to take on the Lich there. (liches are quite common in BG2. They're everywhere. So don't even try to peddle that moronic "rare occasion" nonsense on us again)

 

Do tell me how you're going to defeat it, considering that Liches in Bg2 are immune all spells 6th level or lower, and no one in your party possesses spells beyond 5th level. Oh, and do make sure you can do it in 20 rounds or less. After all, BG2 is a Cakewalk. Shouldn't take that long to easily dispose of a generic LICH in BG2.

 

The podium is yours, my chain-buffing BG2 God.

 

 

Sorry, dude, but the only thing you've proved is that you still don't know how to play BG2 and probably you didn't even know AD&D before playing a random I.E. game :)

 

 

1) Why should I bother to fight a lych at level 10, considering that I DON'T NEED to at the point of the game (usually when people say underlivelled, they talk about this kind of situations. You know? When you meet an encounter that you are not supposed to beat at your actual level, but you can always try)

 

2) Cast sunray against a Lich and then come back and tell me how hard was your fight. LOL ...

 

3) Even without that spell, Lich are easy to trick with resistant to magic summons. They are simply annoying because they force you to wait until their protections expires and during this period they can cast lots of offensive spells (but you know, you can give them a safe target or you can use these strange things called protective spells).  

 

4) The only thing I've admitted, which incidentaly is the only thing you don't get, is that BG2 is hard only if you don't understand its system; a fairly common occurrence considering how inconsistent is AD&D as a ruleset. How many solo-play you need to get that :asd:?

 

PS: caster doesn't mean necessarily wizard/sorcerer. Try a cleric once in a while. He/she may surprise you :asd:... 

PPS: you made a point, though. I misspelled lich :asd:... 

Edited by Baudolino05

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I see. Seems pretty tough for a first time through. You got guts owl; I am impressed with your moxy.

 

Oh I doubt I'm gonna go straight for the Path of Damned mode, but I will probably start on the difficulty below it. Since the difficulty is below that of IWD2 it should be ok.

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Why did this turn into another "gamer cred" thread?  Seriously dudes move on.

 

I will play on the normal setting myself, because normal is pretty much the game as the dev's intended it in most games.  Once I am done there then I will think about trying out the more "gamer cred" challenge levels.

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