Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[HoonDing]

Never vote for manboobs.

[Gorgon]

 

Is someone missing the fact that this is a story about a guy who got shoved in the back of a van, well the boot of a car, by balaclava clad gunmen and was taken to the police station or whatever and beaten up for being a reporter. 

 

How do you not see the connection. I mean ....

 

Hey, bro.

 

You might want to take a look at this, too. Only in Russia(n-speaking areas) right?

 

Wake up.

Never suggested otherwise, but we were talking about Ukraine. Are you capable of talking about this without deflecting with examples of US brutality, of which I'm sure there are many.

 

Seems to me a lot of people are stuck in a simplistic binary view here. Everyone tries to manipulate the media, they aren't all this ham fisted about it though. 

[213374U]

 

 

Is someone missing the fact that this is a story about a guy who got shoved in the back of a van, well the boot of a car, by balaclava clad gunmen and was taken to the police station or whatever and beaten up for being a reporter. 

 

How do you not see the connection. I mean ....

 

Hey, bro.

 

You might want to take a look at this, too. Only in Russia(n-speaking areas) right?

 

Wake up.

Never suggested otherwise, but we were talking about Ukraine. Are you capable of talking about this without deflecting with examples of US brutality, of which I'm sure there are many.

 

Seems to me a lot of people are stuck in a simplistic binary view here. Everyone tries to manipulate the media, they aren't all this ham fisted about it though. 

 

Excuse me, who died and made you the sole authority on what "we are talking about"? The narrative is that Sloviansk's "People's Mayor" and his thugs were arresting journalists in an effort to intimidate the press. This deserves strong condemnation. It does indeed, but to issue a condemnation you need a modicum of moral integrity. Stuff like what I posted completely destroys any illusion that such integrity exists. Or are you suggesting that the reason why her case isn't relevant is because everyone agrees that the downward spiral towards a police state the US is on is self-evident and therefore no exploring it is necessary? Didn't think so.

 

Problem is, it's not even comparable. Ostrovsky was released after three days, largely unharmed, except for his own account of being beaten. McMillan's mistreatment is well documented and she will go to jail for a long time unless the sentence is overturned in appeal. The authority of Sloviansk's "People's Mayor" isn't recognized by anyone, not even Russia, while the system that abused and convicted McMillan is actually the freaking US judiciary.

 

I just figured that, in your outrage, you might be interested in this blatant violation of civil rights. I guess I was wrong, which makes your comment about a "simplistic binary view" all the more ironic.

[Gorgon]

Police brutality during occupy is completely irrelevant, plain and simple. If the intent was to show that, yes, police brutality happens in the west too you have succeeded. What do you want, a cookie ?.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I can't believe they're so stupid

 

http://rt.com/news/157736-ukraine-troops-russia-borders/

 

This whole thing is teetering very close to ugly.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gorgon]

It's theater. I'm sure it helps Kiev to give the impression that a Russian invasion is imminent. If it were, 15000 troops would hardly make a difference. 

[BruceVC]

It's theater. I'm sure it helps Kiev to give the impression that a Russian invasion is imminent. If it were, 15000 troops would hardly make a difference. 

 

That's true, the Russians had 60K troops on the Ukrainian border and I would argue the Russian troops are more battle hardened

[213374U]

Police brutality during occupy is completely irrelevant, plain and simple. If the intent was to show that, yes, police brutality happens in the west too you have succeeded. What do you want, a cookie ?.

 

Oh, but police brutality isn't even at the centre of this case. The conviction designed to intimidate the people by making an example of her to discourage resistance is, but you missed that somehow. I guess you didn't bother reading the whole thing.

 

And since you're asking, I'd rather have an intelligent conversation. Failing that however, I'll settle for that cookie.

Edited May 8, 2014 by 213374U

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well they're going to hold the May 11 referendum referendum regardless. Whether this turn of events was planned with Moscow or a bit of solo local politicking is maybe irrelevant considering that it forces Kiev to act.

 

The possibility of Russian intervention now looks remote even tough they could probably steamroll the Ukrainian army in short order. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Right sector nazis hang russian activist:

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e24_1399498421

 

That's some of Europe's finest democrats in action.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Mor]

 

• Russia's Media Trolls

 Nice, anyone who have different point of view in comparision with general line of NWO Party is a troll, liar and agent of KGB. Dude it's serious reason to worry about democracy in YOUR country.

 

I don't really care about NWOs, UFOs and the like, but OBY, ohhhhh.. you care about democracy and our democracy...... In that case what did you think about this observation:

"…the quantity of pro-Kremlin trolling on this topic … which has been documented extensively since 2012 as a real and insidious threat to online communities of idea and debate, has rendered commenting on these articles all but meaningless, and a worthless exercise in futility and frustration for anyone not already being mind-controlled by the Kremlin."

Mind you its just one commenter opinion on the guardian, but I have seen it mentioned on many other occasions, including in Russia local arena. Last I recall it involved an investigative piece concerning payed comments. (you know like amazon ranking fiasco)

 

Police brutality during occupy is completely irrelevant, plain and simple. If the intent was to show that, yes, police brutality happens in the west too you have succeeded. What do you want, a cookie ?.

Its what I call deflection or the "look who's talking" routine, way to avoid discussion and change the topic, by pointing the finger outward in accusation that what you have is just the same. so far those discussion ended in ad nauseum by rain of endless popular events per google search, while ignoring any and all analysis that cover the various topics. Edited May 8, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Police brutality during occupy is completely irrelevant, plain and simple. If the intent was to show that, yes, police brutality happens in the west too you have succeeded.

 

It isn't irrelevant, because citing such examples as Mr Vice is meant to establish moral clarity on the issue- look how these guys treat the free press with disdain! But if others, supposedly more free, are doing much the same then there is no moral clarity, and people should be as outraged or more so than if a bunch of random armed blokes detain someone for three days. You can make anything look bad (or good, for that matter) by tailoring the terms of reference to exclude stuff you don't like and which contradicts your views, indeed it is a particular favourite technique of politicians looking to get the result they want from 'independent' panels. Seeking to redefine everything to a particularly narrow interpretation where (in some cases) even things happening inside Ukraine within the past few months or years are labelled 'irrelevant' or 'deflection' is utterly feeble and no substitute for a proper response.

 

To illustrate why this is utterly feeble argumentation I will declare that everything that is not about Right Sector burning 40 people alive in Odessa as 'deflection' from the True Issue. After all, 40 people dying is far more important than some poor baby being locked up without his iphone for a few days. Ah, I can feel the warm glow of victory on the internet washing over me...

[Mor]

"you can make anything look bad (or good, for that matter) by tailoring the terms of reference" - exactly for example rendering discussion meaningless, through onslought of nitpicked over hyped events, ignorantly/intentional insinuating that the situation is the same.

 

Here are some point of reference that analyse overall free press, freedom of the "net" and freedom in general (there was no "Western" category, so I picked USA, which will fit well considering that most of the examples here are about the USA, like the above example, Biden etc)

 

Freedom of press (USA, Russia). Freedom of net (USA, Russia) and freedom in general USA, Russia)

 

 

Btw, the reason I hate Astrology its because it is written in vague, ungrounded generalities and it "success" is due to its suggestive nature, because people accept general or vague statements as applying uniquely to them. Similarly in our case the first paragraph is that general/vague statements that can be recycled in any conversation about our own local politics, and will appeal to many, me included. (I also 100% agree, only in 180 opposite of what your bottom line) Its the second one "seeking to redefine what is relevant to your particularly narrow interpretation" is the problem ( it plays on ignorance and prejudices of what the media role and the facts in hype spam wank fest)

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mor

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Is someone missing the fact that this is a story about a guy who got shoved in the back of a van, well the boot of a car, by balaclava clad gunmen and was taken to the police station or whatever and beaten up for being a reporter. 

 

How do you not see the connection. I mean ....

 

Hey, bro.

 

You might want to take a look at this, too. Only in Russia(n-speaking areas) right?

 

Wake up.

 

Yeah, violent protesters confront police, and in the process a policeman is elbowed in the eye (this is on film). The woman's excuse is that at some point someone had grabbed her boob. This totally proves police brutality. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/05/cecily-mcmillan-guilty-assaulting-nypd-officer.html Edited May 9, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[BruceVC]

 

Police brutality during occupy is completely irrelevant, plain and simple. If the intent was to show that, yes, police brutality happens in the west too you have succeeded.

 

It isn't irrelevant, because citing such examples as Mr Vice is meant to establish moral clarity on the issue- look how these guys treat the free press with disdain! But if others, supposedly more free, are doing much the same then there is no moral clarity, and people should be as outraged or more so than if a bunch of random armed blokes detain someone for three days. You can make anything look bad (or good, for that matter) by tailoring the terms of reference to exclude stuff you don't like and which contradicts your views, indeed it is a particular favourite technique of politicians looking to get the result they want from 'independent' panels. Seeking to redefine everything to a particularly narrow interpretation where (in some cases) even things happening inside Ukraine within the past few months or years are labelled 'irrelevant' or 'deflection' is utterly feeble and no substitute for a proper response.

 

To illustrate why this is utterly feeble argumentation I will declare that everything that is not about Right Sector burning 40 people alive in Odessa as 'deflection' from the True Issue. After all, 40 people dying is far more important than some poor baby being locked up without his iphone for a few days. Ah, I can feel the warm glow of victory on the internet washing over me...

 

 

Zora I want to ask you a few direct questions. I am not going to presume to know the answer so I would like you to tell me how you feel

 

What is your main issue with how the West operates? Do you have an issue with the politics of how Western countries are governed, do you think they are fundamentally corrupt?

 

I am asking for a paragraph or 2  around how you see the West and there influence on the world. I am not judging you, I want to understand where you come from

[obyknven]

Freedom of press (USA, Russia). Freedom of net (USA, Russia) and freedom in general USA, Russia)

Wow, US say they are good guys while US enemies are bad guys.

Tell such cool stories about freedom on West to someone else, i alive proof how wrong this is (probably half of my posts has been censored on this forum and never posted). By posts of Western citiezens i can conclude  also - they don't known what Pluralism is - without this nor liberalism  nor democracy can exist, sorry, but you live in totalitarian society and even don't known this.

 

[Mor]

If so they are kind of doing a bad job at it, allowing several European countries to take the lead for so long and recently getting slammed in the Nets report for Biden\NSA stuff.. tsk tsk tsk - armatures Putin wouldn't approve.

 

Anyway, its an NGO, it ranks democracy, political freedom, and human rights across the world with transparent verifiable criteria and detailed reports like those above. which is a refreshing contrast to vague wank fest and conspiracy crap you paddling, but hey, if it make you sleep better at night keep checking your closet for the bogyman USA...

[Tagaziel]

Anyway, its an NGO, it ranks democracy, political freedom, and human rights across the world with transparent verifiable criteria and detailed reports like those above. which is a refreshing contrast to vague wank fest and conspiracy crap you paddling, but hey, if it make you sleep better at night keep checking your closet for the bogyman USA...

Dude, you're arguing with a bot. oby is not a human, he's a very intricate mechanical device designed to string together randomly selected images and sentences and post them on forums. It literally can't think in a different way, no matter how much facts you present.

 

That said, the invention of such an artificial construct is a milestone in AI research. Shame Russian Ministry of Information Considered Very Important Abroad and Forum Spamming wastes it on such trivial pursuits.

[BruceVC]

 

Anyway, its an NGO, it ranks democracy, political freedom, and human rights across the world with transparent verifiable criteria and detailed reports like those above. which is a refreshing contrast to vague wank fest and conspiracy crap you paddling, but hey, if it make you sleep better at night keep checking your closet for the bogyman USA...

Dude, you're arguing with a bot. oby is not a human, he's a very intricate mechanical device designed to string together randomly selected images and sentences and post them on forums. It literally can't think in a different way, no matter how much facts you present.

 

That said, the invention of such an artificial construct is a milestone in AI research. Shame Russian Ministry of Information Considered Very Important Abroad and Forum Spamming wastes it on such trivial pursuits.

 

"a bot "

 

[Mor]

Dude, you're arguing with a bot. oby is not a human, he's a very intricate mechanical device designed to string together randomly selected images and sentences and post them on forums. It literally can't think in a different way, no matter how much facts you present.

 

That said, the invention of such an artificial construct is a milestone in AI research. Shame Russian Ministry of Information Considered Very Important Abroad and Forum Spamming wastes it on such trivial pursuits.

That description fits more than just oby... Edited May 9, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

It's theater. I'm sure it helps Kiev to give the impression that a Russian invasion is imminent. If it were, 15000 troops would hardly make a difference.

I agree, it wont make a dent if push come to shove, but I strongly doubt that it is Kiev that is playing theatrics by poking the bear. It is far more likely that this is Russian theatrics covering the recent Ukrainian contingent of troops deployed into Eastern Ukraine for their ongoing operation.

 

Which is supported by the fact that this information originated from Russia defense ministry. Which in their cynical statement spoke about "western misinformation", Ukrainians troops supposedly posturing on the border and NATO build up in Eastern Europe, and how all of that is not contributing to the efforts to de-escalate tensions... Cynical, since Russia is the one who has been parking ~fifth of its army on the Ukrainian border from the start, whose presence directly threatened Ukraine(especially after Russian disregard to Ukraine sovereignty in Crimea grab), with Russia ignoring all international requests to withdraw and deescalate tensions. Russian force is several magnitude larger then NATO "gestures" to reassure its members, and pose no threat to Russia. However, its plays nicely to the 'militaristic' angle that has been lately playing in Russian news i.e. the Kiev "junta", Kiev "warmongering" etc..

 

That's true, the Russians had 60K troops on the Ukrainian border and I would argue the Russian troops are more battle hardened

I don't know how many battle ready troops Russia has on the Ukrainian border or how battle hardened they are, but I think that the one things that everyone here would agree is that Ukraine has no more chance than Georgia had.

 

Although here is a nice break down it might not be the most up to date info, or give a great summary of how much stronger Russian, but its a nice strategic overview, with Russian deployment and previous commitments in the region:

 

 

 

Btw:

Chechnya (5). is where they had 2 wars in the last two decades.

Westward is Geogria(3) where they "protected" Russians, making two land grabs almost splinting the country into two.

Westward is Sochi, where recently the olympics where held and billions have been invested in infrastructure in the region.

Westward is Crimea, location of their black sea base and recent land grab "protecting" Russians.

From here Westward is Transnistria(2) another breakaway region where Russia is "protecting" someone for some reason, and Eastward Dotentsk where Russia want to protect ethnic Russians.

 

 

Overall all the scenarios concerning Ukraine that I have seen from a while, suggest that Russia would covertly support, or even engineer, civil unrest throughout south-east Ukraine and use that as a pretext for: securing land corridor to Crimea through Donetsk; or even expanding further its Black sea real estate, capturing Odessa and creating a corridor to Transnistria in Moldova; and likely other targets of opportunity that will present themselves east of the Dnieper River.

 

If you are interested in such stuff, here is a nice detailed article on Russia strategy and concerns from Swedish research agency

http://www.foi.se/Global/Vår%20kunskap/Säkerhetspolitiska%20studier/Ryssland/Briefings/RUFS%20Briefing%20No.22.pdf

Edited May 9, 2014 by Mor

[sorophx]

here's an interesting video, some of the photos it has are really disturbing. maybe it's not 100% accurate, but still... food for thought 

http://youtu.be/fWkfpGCAAuw

[Sarex]

Tell me again about the freedom of the press in the west... They know everything, but they purposely manipulate the picture.

[Hassat Hunter]

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/20-doden-marioepol-eerste-beelden

 

Yup, all those dead people look like highly trained spetznaz... they're not killing their own people, nope... :/

(sorry, can't seem to find a way to directly link the vid)

[obyknven]

Meanwhile Kievan junta massacre yet another Ukrainian city. Punishers in Mariupol, they just kill unarmed civilians and police officers here.

 

 

Thanks very much for this ****  to Obama, Merkel and another US/EU politicans who make this Nazi madness real. Also i want say thank you to all Western citizens who support these politicans. You all are part of these crimes also and you all can may be proud now.
 

 

EDIT : don't post embedded vids of the kind that aren't allowed in this forum because they are too graphic. Post a link, preferably to a news site and give a warning if applicable. I believe I mentioned this just a few pages back. 

 

Make an effort please.

 

~  Gorgon.