Ukraine burns

[Mor]

You see I know first hand how the Western media out right lies about things, that I can only imagine it's government tells it to do.

No need for wild imagination, you just described good ol' system in most Eastren countries(including Russia) where the government tells the press what is ok through harsh censorship. As demonstrated by the data I linked, so that we can avoid any statements based on our own beliefs or biases...

 

Speaking of censorship, that film you linked to make your point about america was produced in and acted by Americans. In fact many films and other media in the

"west" are openly critical of its various governments and policies. Which brings me back to Russia, when was last time that anyone was allowed to make a truly critical about Russia\Putin (in fact, some of the bigger fishes have been jailed on tramped up charges, so that others get the hint that you either with or against the "party" line ).

 

So before we continue, you need to understand that from day one you have been exposed(brainwashed) to only one point of view i.e. "Putin daily". This is particularly hard to understand to people in the east where censorship is most brutal, thus their initial experience to global media is usually WTF?! LIES! this is usually passes once you expand your foundation and figure out that the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

Now why is all of this important, because it paints a picture to the western world about how bad the East is and how good the West is.

Again I am asking what is this picture of the west/east you are talking about? Is it Quality of Life, Purchasing Power, Safety, Education, Health Care, commute time(infrastructure), Pollution etc ? or maybe its things like repression, censorship, human rights abuses etc? Because overall in all those indexes Russia measured closely to a third world country.

 

So it is not the "western" media that sells you the wrong picture, but "Putin daily" BS that keep finding enemies and conspiracies outside to deflect from issues within. Unless you have some other data to back up your belief other than the common rant west this west that..

 

Hollywood is a big propaganda machine and here is why, 90% of the tv shows I watched (excluding comedies (though it even happens in them if you can believe it)) have an episode in them where the big bad guys come from Serbia, the most resent example was the latest series of Sherlock, the one, for an example, that baffled me the most is Psych, a comedy about a detective who pretends to be a psychic in a small town, in the episode I am referencing Serbian mobsters come and try to kill everybody...

of course where do you want the "bad guys" to come from "dady issues obesity central" or the "east"(i.e. third world countries) of child soldiers, crime/lawlessness/human rights abuses, where most of the wars, conflicts and generally **** happens... of course those actiony shows you mentioned pick exotic element and not your everyday joe. Say thank you you are not from Germany, those guys are still getting it bad with nazi zombies and the like.

 

Sure TV shows has influence on our life, like most things books\games\youtube(e.g. I like big butts and I can't lie, so who knows maybe I was conditioned by some very old "westren" propaganda) Though I'd argue that news has far greater effect, as before here again we back to the main I noted above i.e. the crowd that read newspapers and follow current events, or watch more serious tv, is exposed to much larger verity of points of view in the west, while back Russia they generally broadcasting Putins message of the day... which you are spoon feed..

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mor

[Sarex]

No need for wild imagination, you just described good ol' system in most Eastren countries(including Russia) where the government tells the press what is ok through harsh censorship. As demonstrated by the data I linked, so that we can avoid any statements based on our own beliefs or biases...

 

Speaking of censorship, that film you linked to make your point about america was produced in and acted by Americans. In fact many films and other media in the

"west" are openly critical of its various governments and policies. Which brings me back to Russia, when was last time that anyone was allowed to make a truly critical about Russia\Putin (in fact, some of the bigger fishes have been jailed on tramped up charges, so that others get the hint that you either with or against the "party" line ).

 

So before we continue, you need to understand that from day one you have been exposed(brainwashed) to only one point of view i.e. "Putin daily". This is particularly hard to understand to people in the east where censorship is most brutal, thus their initial experience to global media is usually WTF?! LIES! this is usually passes once you expand your foundation and figure out that the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

I don't know what you read, but as I far as I see, I wrote that I had first hand experience about the western media lying. First hand doesn't mean my newspaper told me, first hand means I know what happened from first hand.

 

So because you linked a wiki article it means that the western media is free? Please, don't be so naive. I asked you about the apache incident and how the American government censored it, I told you about the Snowden incident and the guardian. Do you want more examples, or are we going to go by a wiki article about how free the western media is.

 

So what if it was made by Americans, are these documentaries allowed to be broadcast on tv, has any newspaper mentioned them? These are internet documentaries and as such aren't anywhere near main stream media, so I think they are a bad example of talking about media censorship. I'm sure if you look, you can find some Russian documentaries on the internet (I do not know Russian so I can't really look for them).

 

As for being brainwashed well I am not Russian so I'm not sure what "Putin Daily" is and how it brainwashes, but I can give you an American example. The pledge of allegiance every elementary student takes every day in school is a blatant case of brainwashing. Also let's not go in to how when ever something of national importance happens, Miley Cyrus or some other celebrity shakes their ass and every mainstream media in the US is all over it 24/7.

 

So it is not the "western" media that sells you the wrong picture, but "Putin daily" BS that keep finding enemies and conspiracies outside to deflect from issues within. Unless you have some other data to back up your belief other than the common rant west this west that..

Again I am asking what is this picture of the west/east you are talking about? Is it Quality of Life, Purchasing Power, Safety, Education, Health Care, commute time(infrastructure), Pollution etc ? or maybe its things like repression, censorship, human rights abuses etc? Because overall in all those indexes Russia measured closely to a third world country.

 

You don't know how funny you sound, you are describing exactly what I am talking about.

 

Sure we can talk about quality of life, some western countries have a great standard of living some don't. I wouldn't count America or Russia as countries with a great standard of living. But one has an excuse for being like that and the other doesn't. Russia is huge and much of it inaccessible, so the climate and it's geographical position make it hard for everyone to have a great standard of living, second Russia came out of the cold war on the losing side and has only recently, thanks to Putin, started to pull it self together. The future for the Russian citizens is only looking better. What is Americas excuse? Why does it have one of the worst health care system in the world, why is it's educational system so bad, why are some of it's cites calling bankruptcies? Or are all those just Putin's lies?

 

It is you who is brainwashed and I'm sorry that you will never see that.

 

 

of course where do you want the "bad guys" to come from "dady issues obesity central" or the "east"(i.e. third world countries) of child soldiers, crime/lawlessness/human rights abuses, where most of the wars, conflicts and generally **** happens... of course those actiony shows you mentioned pick exotic element and not your everyday joe. Say thank you you are not from Germany, those guys are still getting it bad with nazi zombies and the like.

Sure TV shows has influence on our life, like most things books\games\youtube(e.g. I like big butts and I can't lie, so who knows maybe I was conditioned by some very old "westren" propaganda) Though I'd argue that news has far greater effect, as before here again we back to the main I noted above i.e. the crowd that read newspapers and follow current events, or watch more serious tv, is exposed to much larger verity of points of view in the west, while back Russia they generally broadcasting Putins message of the day... which you are spoon feed..

 

I have nothing to say to this, you obviously have an agenda against Putin. You paint a picture of Russia that isn't true and you ignore what I am trying to say. Maybe you just misunderstood what I said, but I think you are just trying to reinforce the one sided view that the west is projecting. The truth is that no one is free, not the Americans and not the Russians, it's just that one is aware of it and the other is not. Try to educate your self, watch the documentaries I linked, don't believe everything you media tells you (because I know I don't) and maybe you and I will have something to talk about.

 

edit: To further demonstrate how your arguments fall flat, I live in Serbia (if that wasn't already clear), a country which is pro west with a pro western government and a pro western media. So please tell me more about how I am being brainwashed by Putin Daily.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Sarex

[Malcador]

That is a strawmen argument. He didn't said that US or any other country for that matter, try to influencing the attitude of others toward its cause or position. What is being said that in the US and other western countries you also have free media which show opposing points of view(it is allowed not to agree with government on everything). Everyone, even you can sta"spread the word" as long as its not some kind of hate speech.(iirc Algazira started broadcasting in the US) While in countries such as Russia you are spoon feed the government propaganda.

 

Well, he claimed stating that the media (I assume mainstream, anyway) in the US is used by the state was made up, so he might very well believe that there's no influence on the press by the government, so that's why I asked the question.   

 

Haven't had much exposure to Russian press as it is inside Russia, have seen RT though.

[213374U]

 

You see I know first hand how the Western media out right lies about things, that I can only imagine it's government tells it to do.

No need for wild imagination, you just described good ol' system in most Eastren countries(including Russia) where the government tells the press what is ok through harsh censorship. As demonstrated by the data I linked, so that we can avoid any statements based on our own beliefs or biases...

 

Speaking of censorship, that film you linked to make your point about america was produced in and acted by Americans. In fact many films and other media in the

"west" are openly critical of its various governments and policies. Which brings me back to Russia, when was last time that anyone was allowed to make a truly critical about Russia\Putin (in fact, some of the bigger fishes have been jailed on tramped up charges, so that others get the hint that you either with or against the "party" line ).

 

So before we continue, you need to understand that from day one you have been exposed(brainwashed) to only one point of view i.e. "Putin daily". This is particularly hard to understand to people in the east where censorship is most brutal, thus their initial experience to global media is usually WTF?! LIES! this is usually passes once you expand your foundation and figure out that the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

I really love how you get all high and mighty at the drop of a hat and accuse other people you know nothing about of being "brainwashed", "lazy", "complacent" and anything else you need to feel good about yourself. Compensating for something, are we?

 

The link you posted is of questionable value, for reasons I already discussed. Clearly, an unbiased analysis and discussion is much harder and effort-intensive than copypasta of the first WP page that supports your view. Here is the post where I pre-emptively discussed the WP "data":

 

 

Okay then, you know what else is funny? The Press Freedom Index (one commonly cited figure when examining this issue) does not focus only on actual dissident journalist persecution, but rather on how easy it is for journalists to go about their work—including, but not limited to, public media independence, self-censorship and legislation. The questionnaire from which this index is derived also takes into consideration other factors influencing professional journalists, as in basically bribes and also how many really independent privately owned media companies exist, if any. This aggregate index puts Venezuela at roughly the same level as Israel and ahead of faithful western ally Turkey. For exactly what reasons? Impossible to know! Amusing, huh?

 

bushthatsheetididntreaditlol.gif

 

Now, I'm not an expert on Russian media, I know very little of the actual hurdles journalists have to overcome to do their job over there. And unless you are Russian, I'm not going to take your word for it, either.

 

But what I do know is that western mainstream media are so under the control of private interests that there is no functional difference between a central government censorship agency and "editorial lines" that journalists have to follow or face sacking.

 

What good is a right if it's not exercised? Heh.

 

 

 

of course   where do you want the "bad guys" to come from "dady issues obesity central" or the "east"(i.e. third world countries) of child soldiers, crime/lawlessness/human rights abuses, where most of the wars, conflicts and generally **** happens... of course those actiony shows you mentioned pick exotic element and not your everyday joe. Say thank you you are not from Germany, those guys are still getting it bad with nazi zombies and the like.

 

Aw, gee. I don't know. How about we shift the focus for once and cast the bad guys from our own backyard? The death toll worldwide attributable to the global MIC is difficult to calculate, but it sure beats war crimes during the Balkans wars. Of course, the idea that the people signing our paychecks (for those who are still getting one) are involved in the business of systematic global destabilization may be harder to swallow for some of us than some nice reinforcement of the "us vs them" mentality achieved by caricaturesque portrayals of bad guys from "the East" to whom we cannot establish any sort of emotional connection.

 

Enjoy the Kool-Aid.

Edited February 25, 2014 by 213374U

[Chilloutman]

Its simple, count how many journalists where imprisoned and/or killed/missing etc in 'West' countries for what they preach and then count them in Russia

 

Issue solved

Edited February 25, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Sarex]

Its simple, count how many journalists where imprisoned and/or killed/missing etc in 'West' countries for what they preach and then count them in Russia

 

Issue solved

 

Why don't you enlighten us.

[Chilloutman]

Prison sentences and violent attacks were less frequent in 2011, except during the election campaign period. Yet legal proceedings and pressures of all kind continue – above all when the activities of netizens focus on sensitive topics and powerful interest groups.

 

Maj. Igor Matveev of the interior ministry garrison in Vladivostok has been prosecuted on charges that seem to have been prompted by his revelations last June of practices in the military region where he served. He reported that troops were served dog food in cans falsely labelled as containing beef stew. He faces a possible 10-year sentence.

 

Yuri Yegorov, a former employee of the regional government of Tatarstan’s human rights ombudsman’s office, received a six-month suspended sentence last June, as well as two years of probation, for defamation. He had revealed a case of alleged corruption in the ombudsman’s office, headed by Ra**** Vagiov, that took place from February to July 2007.

 

 

https://en.rsf.org/russie-journalists-persecuted-by-judges-02-01-2014,45691.html

 

The violent deaths of journalists started in the Yeltsin era (1991–1999) and continued under Putin, president of Russia from 31 December 1999 to 7 May 2008.[26] When Medvedev became president, he spoke of the need to end "legal nihilism".[citation needed] In the past five years, there have been a rising number of trials[17] but by November 2009 there had yet to be a major breakthrough, under Medvedev, either in the prosecution of pre-2008 deaths or the investigation of killings since

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

 

Reporters Without Borders condemns the unprecedented campaign of harassment suddenly unleashed against Dozhd (Дождь, Rain TV), one of Russia’s few really independent broadcasters, a station that is often outspoken and gives space to opposition views.

 

Although available only via cable, satellite and on the Internet, Dozhd had managed to acquire a sizeable number of viewers since its launch in 2010, especially among the urban middle class.

 

But a controversial poll about the siege of Leningrad during the Second World War has been used as a pretext by many carriers for dropping Dozhd’s signal in the past few days and, since yesterday, the station is being investigated by the St. Petersburg prosecutor’s office.

 

Sorry cant bother to list all, this is just quick search

[Sarex]

First 2 are whistle blowers not journalist, the rest are dead and it speculation who killed them, because nothing has been proven. Not one was put in jail by the government. But the point stands there is no free press in Russia. But does that mean that because there are no dead reporters that we know of in America, they have free press?

[Hurlshort]

First 2 are whistle blowers not journalist, the rest are dead and it speculation who killed them, because nothing has been proven. Not one was put in jail by the government. But the point stands there is no free press in Russia. But does that mean that because there are no dead reporters that we know of in America, they have free press?

 

Are you being serious?  There is an entire news channel devoted to criticizing the President.  

 

You can definitely question the quality of the reporting in the US, but it is pretty clear they are free to report on everything.

 

Go read some articles about the NSA if you don't believe that.  They've gotten a ton of negative press in the last year.  This is a top secret government agency and it has been crucified by reporters.

[BruceVC]

First 2 are whistle blowers not journalist, the rest are dead and it speculation who killed them, because nothing has been proven. Not one was put in jail by the government. But the point stands there is no free press in Russia. But does that mean that because there are no dead reporters that we know of in America, they have free press?

 

Sarex you mustn't believe in conspiracy theories, they will depress and frustrate you to death

[Mor]

I don't know what you read, but as I far as I see, I wrote that I had first hand experience about the western media lying. First hand doesn't mean my newspaper told me, first hand means I know what happened from first hand.

 

So because you linked a wiki article it means that the western media is free? Please, don't be so naive. I asked you about the apache incident and how the American government censored it, I told you about the Snowden incident and the guardian. Do you want more examples, or are we going to go by a wiki article about how free the western media is.

Of course we are going with an article that covers censorship in the world (Which provide referenced data including an institution which studied and analyzed print, broadcast, and internet in every country, every year since 1980 ) over your personal experience in some incident. (Why you presume that you are the only one with the right personal experience and the right context/perspective to interpret it?!)

 

Also do you understanding the difference between freedom and liberty? or that in this case digging for sensualized news is anything but demagogy? or do you really think that other than showing that no system is perfect(something that everyone knows) that those incident speak about the "Westren" media as a whole, and more importantly that they in any way shape or form implies that "Westren" media is less free than Eastren or Russian media. I'd love to see any independent institute that would even imply that Russian or Eastren media is more liberal in that respect then westren.. Until then all your goggling effort make me think of tinfoil conspiracy nut.

 

So what if it was made by Americans, are these documentaries allowed to be broadcast on tv, has any newspaper mentioned them?

So even your example about America and Western media is an american documentary criticizing america... or reiterating from before that in the west criticism of government and its policies is allowed a much greater degree of freedom, unlike in most Eastern countries(including Russia) with harsh censorship. (Which is very likely why trolls such as oby keep ranting about the west...insisting that everyone lies and only they know the truth..)

 

p.s. I was talking about the example you noted as "more to the point", which has its own IMDB page.

 

You don't know how funny you sound, you are describing exactly what I am talking about.

 

Sure we can talk about quality of life, some western countries have a great standard of living some don't. I wouldn't count America or Russia as countries with a great standard of living. But one has an excuse for being like that...

I am happy to to entertain, but lets make sure we are not railroading, we weren't talking about standard of life per se, but your claims that the western media is the propaganda machine, which lies and paint bad picture of Russia, a picture that according to you is far from the truth.

 

To which I offer you a lot of possible ranking to check if you are running on "Putin" glue fumes or not. or which international indexes from independent sources are usually readily available, which overall seem to disagree with you.. So what you are talking about, why what you would or woldn't claim about the USA vs Russia or your excuses are important or relevant to what we talked about?!?!

 

What is Americas excuse? Why does it have one of the worst health care system in the world, why is it's educational system so bad, why are some of it's cites calling bankruptcies? Or are all those just Putin's lies?

I don't know, who the F*** cares, get your head out of ass and stop comparing Russia to the USA. But for the sake of the argument to put things for you into perspective:

 

I didn't care enough to spend time to look up the most recent data, so according to several years old info, what you describe as USA "worst health care system in the world" and its crap educational system are better by big margin then the those in Russia. Who knows maybe you are watching too much crap shows in the media?

Also according to 2013 UN Human development report, which include health/education and more, USA is #3, Poland is #39 and Russia is #55, just to put things into.

 

you obviously have an agenda against Putin. You paint a picture of Russia that isn't true and you ignore what I am trying to say. ... The truth is that no one is free, not the Americans and not the Russians, it's just that one is aware of it and the other is not.

Agenda against putin? no. Freaking sick and tired of that over chewed Putin meme and oby like trolls? absolutely. So for once let put him into a good use. Also it is not my, westren or anyone else picture, it is data and science baby

 

as for the rest what you are saying is painfully obvious to everyone.. yes no one is completely free( Personal freedom doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and freedom of speech doesn't mean say whatever you want) However the bottom line is it like it or not censorship in the east is far far worse then it is the west.

 

So ranting about the West/USA and dismissing out of hand anything that is not in line with "Putin" daily brain fart is not a good idea.

 

 

EDIT: @213374U, go troll somewhere else.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Are you being serious?  There is an entire news channel devoted to criticizing the President.  

 

You can definitely question the quality of the reporting in the US, but it is pretty clear they are free to report on everything.

 

Go read some articles about the NSA if you don't believe that.  They've gotten a ton of negative press in the last year.  This is a top secret government agency and it has been crucified by reporters.

Though you have to wonder if the press is useless at asking tough questions, then it's about as useful as a controlled one. As for the NSA, I guess they got lucky Snowden talked to Greenwald (who is rather annoying with his announcements of announcements style of drip feeding). Haven't seen much in the way of 'crucifying' by the press, mainly bouncing Snowden/Greenwald's stuff.

 

Other than Hastings' convenient car crash, not much in the way of press oppression in the US.

[Sarex]

Are you being serious?  There is an entire news channel devoted to criticizing the President.  

 

You can definitely question the quality of the reporting in the US, but it is pretty clear they are free to report on everything.

 

Go read some articles about the NSA if you don't believe that.  They've gotten a ton of negative press in the last year.  This is a top secret government agency and it has been crucified by reporters.

 

 

Oh no, the press is talking bad things about the president, well I guess they will have to switch him out for a republican next election. Rinse and repeat. There were lots of incidents where the US was caught red handed and all the major news outlets where gagged. People where talking about the NSA for years before Snowden, the only reason it's still a popular issue is because he is still free to remind them.

 

 

 

Of course we are going with an article that covers censorship in the world (Which provide referenced data including an institution which studied and analyzed print, broadcast, and internet in every country, every year since 1980 ) over your personal experience in some incident. (Why you presume that you are the only one with the right personal experience and the right context/perspective to interpret it?!)

 

Also do you understanding the difference between freedom and liberty? or that in this case digging for sensualized news is anything but demagogy? or do you really think that other than showing that no system is perfect(something that everyone knows) that those incident speak about the "Westren" media as a whole, and more importantly that they in any way shape or form implies that "Westren" media is less free than Eastren or Russian media. I'd love to see any independent institute that would even imply that Russian or Eastren media is more liberal in that respect then westren.. Until then all your goggling effort make me think of tinfoil conspiracy nut.

 

So even your example about Western media is an american documentary criticizing america... or reiterating from before that in the west criticism of government and its policies is allowed a much greater degree of freedom, unlike in most Eastren countries(including Russia) with harsh censorship. (Which is very likely why trolls such as oby keep ranting about the west...)

 

p.s. I am talking about the example you noted as "more to the point", which has its own IMDB page.

 

I am happy to to entertain, but lets make sure we are not railroading, we weren't talking about standard of life per se, but your claims that the western media is the propaganda machine, which lies and paint bad picture of Russia, a picture that according to you is far from the truth.

 

To which I offer you a lot of possible ranking to check if you are running on "Putin" glue fumes or not. or which international indexes from independent sources are usually readily available, which over seem to disagree with you..

 

So what you are talking about, why what you would claim about the USA vs Russia or your performance are important or relevant?!?!

 

 

I don't know, who the **** cares, get your head out of ass and stop comparing Russia to the USA. But for the sake of the argument to put things for you into perspective:

 

I didn't care enough to spend time to look up the most recent data, so according to several years old info, what you describe as USA "worst health care system in the world" and its crap educational system are better by big margin then the those in Russia. Who knows maybe you are watching too much crap shows in the media?

Also according to 2013 UN Human development report, which include health/education and more, USA is #3, Poland is #39 and Russia is #55, just to put things into.

 

 

Agenda against putin? no. Freaking sick and tired of that over chewed Putin meme and oby like trolls? absolutely. So for once let put him into a good use. Also it is not my, westren or anyone else picture, it is data and science baby

 

as for the rest what you are saying is painfully obvious to everyone.. yes no one is completely free( Personal freedom doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and freedom of speech doesn't mean say whatever you want) However the bottom line is it like it or not censorship in the east is far far worse then it is the west.

 

So ranting about the West/USA and dismissing out of hand anything that is not in line with "Putin" daily brain fart is not a good idea.

 

 

EDIT: @213374U, go troll somewhere else.

 

 

 

Go reread what you wrote, you are the one who mentioned the standards of living, you are the one who started comparing Russia and the USA. I pretty much dismantlement every straw man argument you made and now you have the gall to accuse me of being the one who started them and you still ignore my examples of the US media censure. I am done talking to you.

[Hurlshort]

I don't speak much on how things work in Russia because I would be speaking from a place of ignorance.  But I suppose everyone needs a hobby.  

[213374U]

Its simple, count how many journalists where imprisoned and/or killed/missing etc in 'West' countries for what they preach and then count them in Russia

 

Issue solved

 

No, it's not simple at all. Counting how many journalists are imprisoned or killed vs the same thing in Russia only tells you how many journalists are killed in each place. It says nothing about the independence and quality of journalism.

 

And, by all means, keep bringing more figures and statistics from western-based organizations collated by obscure methodologies to prove that western journalism is "free".

 

 

 

Go read some articles about the NSA if you don't believe that.  They've gotten a ton of negative press in the last year.  This is a top secret government agency and it has been crucified by reporters.

 

That's true. But mostly only because of Snowden—the dude that can't go back to his country because there is no whistleblower protection. A sad state of affairs for the country that is the vanguard of the "free world", don't you think?

 

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/1/

 

It's hard to find the hardcore stuff on mainstream publications, though. And I mean the news items regarding the ever-escalating drone assassinations, the role of intel agencies in foreign regime destabilization, the CIA secret prisons, etc. That kind of thing simply doesn't get as much exposure as other choice pieces do, and obviously nowhere near as much as it should. Instead the criticism is mostly regarding budgetary stuff, policy decisions, partisan tugs of war, etc.

 

 

 

EDIT: @213374U, go troll somewhere else.

 

Yeah, you are right. Going through your posts is like cleaning a bar's toilet. No matter how hard you scrub, you know there's plenty more where that came from.

Edited February 25, 2014 by 213374U

[Mor]

I like the toilet reference because how much it sounds like your nick +4U

[Malcador]

We need a Thunderthread. Two posters enter, one poster leaves.

[213374U]

I like the toilet reference because how much it sounds like your nick +4U

 

Oh, wow. A kindergarten reference to my handle here is the best you can do? Come on, be a bro and put some effort into it, make a "ur mum" joke or something.

 

 

 

We need a Thunderthread. Two posters enter, one poster leaves.

 

 

**** yeah babby!

[Chilloutman]

Hey I am not defending US of A here. I just saying that there is more of 'free' press as far as company owned by human being with its own interests can free be, still much better. But in terms of true freedom Russia can shake hands with US goverment as both are faschist oligarchies. And EU just dont want to stand by, so we will have beurecratic unification and we will be all equal and same, next generation produced in china robotics

[Gfted1]

@ 213374U: Not to get dragged into the larger discussion, but to you, what criteria defines a person a whistleblower vs. traitor to their country? Do you feel that everyone has the right to know everything their government is doing?

[Gorgon]

Jumping in out of the blue, I do, in principle. Unless one happens to be fighting ze Germans. Nation states are the most scary organisational entities you can imagine, especially when it comes to individual liberty.

[213374U]

@ 213374U: Not to get dragged into the larger discussion, but to you, what criteria defines a person a whistleblower vs. traitor to their country? Do you feel that everyone has the right to know everything their government is doing?

 

The line would be where the subject brings to light illegal (or even simply immoral) activities, government or corporate. If a person is aware that a crime is being committed and doesn't report it, he can be charged as accessory. The government doesn't (shouldn't) get exemption on that just because they claim to be doing it "for the common good", "for the people" or "for reasons".

 

And yes, I feel everyone should know what their government is doing. Reason #1 is because they are doing it with my taxes' money. I don't get to choose whether I pay taxes or not. Reason #2 is that I'm a distrustful and cynical **** and cannot think of a single use of secrecy that cannot (and therefore will not) be abused and subverted. Doesn't mean everyone needs to know everything immediately though. But secrecy destroys accountability. And there can be no true democracy without accountability.

[Sarex]

@ 213374U: Not to get dragged into the larger discussion, but to you, what criteria defines a person a whistleblower vs. traitor to their country? Do you feel that everyone has the right to know everything their government is doing?

 

That is a pretty easy one, if he is from your own country then he is a traitor if he is from another country then he is a whistleblower.

 

As for the right of the people to know what is going on backstage, well if it's something that is ultimately doing harm to it's own people they have a right to know.

[Gfted1]

The line would be where the subject brings to light illegal (or even simply immoral) activities, government or corporate. If a person is aware that a crime is being committed and doesn't report it, he can be charged as accessory. The government doesn't (shouldn't) get exemption on that just because they claim to be doing it "for the common good", "for the people" or "for reasons".

 

And yes, I feel everyone should know what their government is doing. Reason #1 is because they are doing it with my taxes' money. I don't get to choose whether I pay taxes or not. Reason #2 is that I'm a distrustful and cynical **** and cannot think of a single use of secrecy that cannot (and therefore will not) be abused and subverted. Doesn't mean everyone needs to know everything immediately though. But secrecy destroys accountability. And there can be no true democracy without accountability.

Im inclined to agree with your first paragraph but disagree with your second. Imo, paying my taxes doesn't buy me the right to classified weapons system / intelligence gathering / etc... I feel those type programs must stay secret or basically lose all effectiveness.

 

Thanks for the answer.

[Valsuelm]

First 2 are whistle blowers not journalist, the rest are dead and it speculation who killed them, because nothing has been proven. Not one was put in jail by the government. But the point stands there is no free press in Russia. But does that mean that because there are no dead reporters that we know of in America, they have free press?

 

Actually... there are dead reporters in America. A recent one is Michael Hastings.