Race and gender affecting gameplay

[drizzan]

Kind of a WALL OF TEXT but I had to write this down before the game was released. I have been playing RPGs since Quest for Glory on Amiga 500 so I want to give my input what I think is important in a RPG.

 

I feel it is really important that the race and gender you play has an impact on the world, with some races being more liked/hated/distrusted, has easier/harder/blocked access to certain areas/guilds/towns and different ways to solve quests and so on.

 

Gender should also matter in what access/solutions can take and how well like they are in their current area/situation.

 

There is nothing more boring than creating a certain race/gender and seeing that it has basically zero impact on the game. Dragon Age Origins is an example of a great RPG that really made the choice of race/gender feel different with each playthrough, now let me show a game that weren't as successful:

 

 

Skyrim: You can choose between 10 different races i believe, what race and gender you choose basically has zero impact on the world expect that the guards may change 1-2 greetings and about as many other dialogues are changed, that's it. Lets not even mention the fact that you can become guild master of everything there aswell in one playthrough that's just disgusting.

 

Bethesdas thinking "Everyone should be able to do everything"  actually reduces gameplay. It removes the point of creating a new char to explore new possibilites with quests/classes/interactions etc etc... The only difference is that your character will look different, which is not ok.

 

Wouldn't it have been alot more awesome if you were playing as a Khajit, and you were banned from going into cities? You had to sneak in at night maybe, or bribe a guards, or just hide under some robes while there. Excluding content for certain races/gender does actually increase gameplay, since I know for sure I wanna try out the other races/gender if they got different gameplay/interactions somewhere.

 

 

Obsidian kept genders interesting in FNV with women being basically slaves by one faction, and being exluded from certain events in that faction. Made gameplay as both genders feel different and fresh. I think of course that there could have been more differences but can't have it all i guess.

 

Make my choice in the start with race and gender count Obsidian, let me feel the hate of various NPCs in one playthough and let me see them treat me differentely in my next playthough with another race/gender. Just don't let them treat me the same no matter what, that would be the worst punishment of all!

 

 

 

[Monte Carlo]

* grabs popcorn *

[Sarex]

Don't be sexist, just because I play as a girl doesn't mean I should be treated differently. Women in Japan are being denied their rights because of their menstruation and you make a post like this. You monster!

 

GIRL POWER!!!

Edited February 8, 2014 by Sarex

[malolis]

Don't be sexist, just because I play as a girl doesn't mean I should be treated differently. Women in Japan are being denied their rights because of their menstruation and you make a post like this. You monster!

 

GIRL POWER!!!

 

Poe's law.

[Sarex]

Poe's law.

 

That is why I liked his post, just in case.

[tajerio]

I can't envision a universe in which Obsidian would make a game based on their own IP and NOT make it reactive to race and gender. My guess is you'll see more reactivity to race, but I'd be shocked if you didn't see both.

[motorizer]

Agreed, It was a waste of time even having race and gender choice in skyrim (other than looks) and what's more  if you picked a race like khajit or dunmer the nords were racist against all of your race except you, and the stormcloaks let an altmer join despite the fact they were pretty much at war with them. I quite liked skyrim...for a dumb action game, but it was no RPG.

 

I want to see that those choices I made in character generation actually did something.

Edited February 8, 2014 by motorizer

[Ailantan]

I think i may stop caring to read treads on this forum anymore.

[Orogun01]

I'd be glad if it's anything like what there was in Arcanum.

[^Rayne^]

I support your suggestions drizzan.  I would rather have individuals react to my identity differently based on my choices, and have this be at least present in dialogs for maybe 5% of the time.

[NanoPaladin]

Well the only problem I see with it is that it causes more dialogue to be written which may or may not be within their current budget.

[Labadal]

I remember the developers have said that race and gender will have some impact. How big that impact is, I do not know.

[Tamerlane]

Hey guys do you think Obsidian will make this game like previous Obsidian games or will they make it like other, non-Obsidian games? This is important to me because I want to know if the racism and sexism in this elfgame will be up to my standards.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

I don't mean to sound negative or come off as a troll, however It dawned on me recently these types of requests are how we teach racism to people. You can show a baby to children of different cultures and nationality's who are between the ages of 4-10 and ask them between a black and white baby, which is the good one, pretty one, ugly one, the one that looks most like you, etc? You're not telling them which to choose, but by your asking them, 15 out of 20 of them will say the white baby is the superior one and the black baby is bad, ugly, etc. You are asking for the same thing in the game, only asking for it in a different way. Why should anyone be penalized because they're different? 

 

I understand this is a mature game for mature adults, but do you really want to play a game that rewards a system that reinforces the hate and negativity that is in the world? Does it bring you joy to know you can manipulate a situation by putting someone in a role that just because of their skin color, race, or gender they get preferred treatment? That's what the groups like the Illuminati want you to think and do, but it's not right. You are just as special as the next person. In Fact that's the beauty of it. It's a choice, you're not predestined to live a life as a pauper because your family has always been poor, and just because you came from a generation of people who always were fighting in the war shouldn't make you have to do that as well. You can create your day every day, you don't have to let someone else choose for you your circumstances in life. 

I think it's fair to get special perks based upon the class or role you play, but I really hope the mature thing to do in this instance is treat everyone with gender and racial equality. In fact, even this week- that seems to be a hot button in the olympics. 

[Labadal]

I don't mean to sound negative or come off as a troll, however It dawned on me recently these types of requests are how we teach racism to people. You can show a baby to children of different cultures and nationality's who are between the ages of 4-10 and ask them between a black and white baby, which is the good one, pretty one, ugly one, the one that looks most like you, etc? You're not telling them which to choose, but by your asking them, 15 out of 20 of them will say the white baby is the superior one and the black baby is bad, ugly, etc. You are asking for the same thing in the game, only asking for it in a different way. Why should anyone be penalized because they're different? 

 

I understand this is a mature game for mature adults, but do you really want to play a game that rewards a system that reinforces the hate and negativity that is in the world? Does it bring you joy to know you can manipulate a situation by putting someone in a role that just because of their skin color, race, or gender they get preferred treatment? That's what the groups like the Illuminati want you to think and do, but it's not right. You are just as special as the next person. In Fact that's the beauty of it. It's a choice, you're not predestined to live a life as a pauper because your family has always been poor, and just because you came from a generation of people who always were fighting in the war shouldn't make you have to do that as well. You can create your day every day, you don't have to let someone else choose for you your circumstances in life. 

 

I think it's fair to get special perks based upon the class or role you play, but I really hope the mature thing to do in this instance is treat everyone with gender and racial equality. In fact, even this week- that seems to be a hot button in the olympics. 

 

Let's say elves and dwarves hate each other in this world, I'd expect my dwarven character to get a lot of crap from elves. Especially if I enter an elvish town or establishment or w/e. Conflicts in the world should not only be there but have an effect on your character. Otherwise it feels pointless to have them in the first place. I don't find "enjoyment" in conflicts but they need to be there in my opinion. If someone of another race mistreats my character, I will probably not be nice to them either. I can differentiate between a made up world and the real world. I'm of the opinion that every human being is of the same worth, that doesn't mean I don't want to see racial conflicts in video games. 

[Tamerlane]

For real though, expect to see less emphasis on beardedness and ear pointiness and more emphasis on nationality/ethnicity.

 

Except for the orlan, which everyone will hate always.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

I agree you need conflict to keep things interesting, but couldn't they address that based upon your reputation rather than your race or gender? It's one thing to not like someone because you're at war with them, but make the war interesting. Maybe they're at war because someone stole technology or someone's life work for example and they want it back. I'm pretty sure that was already addressed by Josh already regarding there would be a reputation system already, so that serves the purpose for needing cultural perks. I totally get you want to feel special based upon the type of character you play as, and have some personality to keep things interesting, I just can think of like 5 ways off the top of my head on how to do so without creating a situation that poo poo's on someone's race or gender. 

[Nonek]

Yes I do hope we see all of the prejudices the game world suffers, especially with regards to different species and cultures. For instance I imagine that the Aedyrean's of Raedceras regard the Dyrwood settlers as heretical and sinful barbaric dogs for their slaying of Saint Waidwen, and that there is still great prejudice against the Glenfathan's for the Broken Stone wars. In my opinion facing and overcoming the racism, speciesism and stereotypes of the setting is far more important than hiding away from it or portraying everybody as nice and politically correct.

[Labadal]

I agree you need conflict to keep things interesting, but couldn't they address that based upon your reputation rather than your race or gender? It's one thing to not like someone because you're at war with them, but make the war interesting. Maybe they're at war because someone stole technology or someone's life work for example and they want it back. I'm pretty sure that was already addressed by Josh already regarding there would be a reputation system already, so that serves the purpose for needing cultural perks. I totally get you want to feel special based upon the type of character you play as, and have some personality to keep things interesting, I just can think of like 5 ways off the top of my head on how to do so without creating a situation that poo poo's on someone's race or gender. 

 

They could do it, sure. I don't really care if there is no racism or not, but look at it this way: Racism is a subject that will never go away in the real world. This goes for other things as well, like slave labor or what have you. I like to see issues like these being tackled in video games. It's not about me feeling special. It's about having subjects in games that actually matter. I don't want a clear black and white, this race is good and this race is evil crap. It's interesting to see how the developers handle serious subjects and then make the player have to make difficult choices. I don't like wars or slavery either, but I still think they can be interesting subjects. I like history and if you read a lot of history, you will understand how many "great" leaders are actually ***holes who did everything it took to win. I'm not saying most video games need to tackle these subjects, but if a serious effort is done, I would appreciate it. Give the player a lot of background information in lore books and involved/neutral NPCs that educate the player on these matters. It's not like every single dwarf would hate every single elf (going by my example in my previous post).

[JFSOCC]

Yes I do hope we see all of the prejudices the game world suffers, especially with regards to different species and cultures. For instance I imagine that the Aedyrean's of Raedceras regard the Dyrwood settlers as heretical and sinful barbaric dogs for their slaying of Saint Waidwen, and that there is still great prejudice against the Glenfathan's for the Broken Stone wars. In my opinion facing and overcoming the racism, speciesism and stereotypes of the setting is far more important than hiding away from it or portraying everybody as nice and politically correct.

most games do racism in a hamfisted way. No subtlety at all. I sincerely hope that won't be the case for PoE

[NanoPaladin]

The game will be rated Mature and exploring Mature themes for a reason. People -shouldn't- be letting younger children play. That said look at TV, movies and even some books. Look at the culture in public schools now I do not think a game where people are calling elves knife-ears will really change a persons racism. Not when they could be steeped waist high in it already. 

[PrimeJunta]

I'd be surprised if this kind of thing wasn't in the game, and doubly surprised if there wasn't at least a solid attempt to do a good job of it. Obsidian has done this before with varying degrees of success; in MotB we had the Rashemen matriarchy and the enmity between them and the Thayvians and the racism towards the Hagspawn, and more recently in FO:NV there was the horribly misogynistic and generally rather awful Caesar's Legion. That's IMO an especially encouraging precedent as it managed to create a believable portrait of them, instead of just making them a one-dimensional essentially evil Enemy that can only ever be resisted.

 

I'd say the biggest flaw with MotB in this respect was that while there was a lot of prejudice in the world you were in, you, the PC, were never at the receiving end of it, not even through your choice of companions. Perhaps PoE will manage it better.

 

(Also, btw -- as games go, both Witchers did a fairly good job of working both sexism and racism into the game without doing it reflexively or unthinkingly. I'm more than happy to forgive their occasional stumbles for everything they did well, and the risks they took to do it at all.)

[teknoman2]

they already confirmed that there will be changes to the way people react to various genders and/or races. not anything major, but it will be there and in a few cases may make a difference

[Sarex]

I want to hear some good swear words and insults when I play the game, otherwise it will be a complete failure.

[Mannock]

For real though, expect to see less emphasis on beardedness and ear pointiness and more emphasis on nationality/ethnicity.

 

Except for the orlan, which everyone will hate always.

 

I second that.

 

Oh and also, I find those comparing this game to Skyrim cute. As if PoE and Skyrim were the same type of game.