Body Types and video games

[HoonDing]

I woke up screaming in the middle of the night and realized TERA did not have a boob slider.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Drudanae

[NOK222]

To those who play SWTOR

 

Body type "4" for females is "fat". 

[Malcador]

 

That and yielding before these social justice slacktivist types is good PR.  Though it's a bit amusing to consider this an injustice of any sort.

 

I do agree, that if these are the problems we have as a society, then life is pretty good for us. Yes, it can be good PR (though I couldn't quantify how much, nor how many people see it simply as a PR stunt and consider it a negative. Wildstar seems to have its share of people decrying developers forfeiting their artistic integrity for the almighty dollar).

 

Still, I'd rather have discussions about this over a lot of other things, simply because if I am discussing this then my life is likely at an improved level of comfort than it otherwise could be.

 

 

Yeah, if only these were the problems the west had to tackle, even within the context of discrimination.  I'll have to check for myself how big this "outrage" was, but I don't think it was all that large at least from first looking, but who knows.   Even if it is a small segment, though, I suppose it's not worth it getting the social justice crusader types on their case like RPS, else interviews with them will be come ambushes like HoTS

 

Guys I don't mean to sound sycophantic but I really encourage people to read what Alan has written in his last 2 posts as he took the time to respond to many comments. But read it without emotion, try to be open minded. As I mentioned he uses almost irrefutable logic and is brilliant at making a point in a way that I fail to see how anyone can dispute what he is saying. This is not about being right or wrong, this is about a different perspective. I genuinely learnt new things about this debate from his input

 

 

Well, you failed at the first part of your post, but that is SOP for you.

 

Cool, so we can some day have out of shape Marines in our games.

This is just a red herring and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just trolling, because you seem smarter than that.

 

As Nonek put it in the news thread, the degree of verisimilitude for one's physical appearance will still be important to some people. You can see similar discussions on this forum with regards to Pillars of Eternity, based on whether or not armor styles should be heavily stylized or have a stronger focus on functional plausibility.

 

 

Not really, was aiming at certain game types are going to require certain body types, so you're restricted there and you'll still see people upset over that, oddly.  Which was pretty much what you referenced Nonek as, but I'm relieved to see you give me the benefit of the doubt.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, you failed at the first part of your post, but that is SOP for you.

 

 

 

 

Malc you getting naughty again, I don't want to send you to your room without dessert !!!

 

Its okay in life to acknowledge someone spent time on a thought provoking and insightful post or posts, just because you don't agree with what a person says its fine to recognise the effort. You should try it sometime

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Is some trying to take away my pixel boobs again?

[Amentep]

 

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?

 

That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

Part of this is because those characters are much older and less overall relevant in today's world.

 

There is certainly loud pushback on a lot of assumptions about comic book/cartoon characters today, however. Some of the more common ones that I'm aware of (with exceptionally minimal understanding of the comic book scene since I have never read them) are things like the Hawkeye Initiative (the most classic pose being the various ones where a woman character is able to show off both her chest and ass cleavage in the same shot).

 

Comic Cons and the like (as well as game cons, and really a lot of places of geek culture that have historically been heavily dominated by males) have started to see movements such as Cosplay is not Consent because it's enough of a problem. A friend of mine is a member of the 501st Legion out of Calgary (and is actually a huge fan of Darth Nihilus and has frequently cosplayed as him) and has had to deal with it personally herself.

 

Yeah the Hawkeye Initiative is amusing in its attack of certain poor artistic decision some artists insist on continuing to make.

 

I'm not sure I can really relate COSPLAY IS NOT CONSENT to body types in video games (unless you're making a connection regarding objectification and how it spills out from fiction into real life and I'm missing it?)

 

One of the things I find interesting trend wise with cosplay is the pushback against people cosplaying outside of the race or gender simply because people assume that these extreme conceptual body types (super musceled dude, super busty woman) are easily replicable in real life by every person.

[Gromnir]

 

is funny that you would wanna try to distinguish "first impression" from overreaching character development. is kinda... cute.

Oh please, appearance is less important in a character than in a caricature, FACT, because a character has other aspects than appearance. You don't even seem aware that you're saying the same thing I am when citing Okku. And first impression is different from overreaching character development, also FACT. It's an aspect of it, but of course when it comes to caricature there's nothing else but that first impression as that's what a caricature is, hence the distinction.

 

So, you now know the difference between a character and a caricature as well as the difference between Richter and Mercalli.

 

keep saying "fact" (capitalized and in caps? you is just so darn cute when you is being ridiculous) doesnt make things facts... or relevant. main difference 'tween a character and a caricature in crpg (or any video game for that matter) is conceit. if a person thinks dogmeat or dove don't rise to the level of your vaunted and imprecise threshold of "character," then they is relegated to caricature? *snort* Gromnir uses the caricature nomenclature our-self, from time to time. is little more than an insult, and a meaningless insult if we fail to supply a rationale for the disparagement. oh, and is a FACT (we get that right?) that you is being obtuse... or silly... again. first impression is a very important aspect of character development, particularly in visual media. your continued attempts to isolate and distinguish those initial impressions the audience has of a character does not lessen their inclusion and importance to overreaching character development.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nepenthe]

 

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?

 

That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

Part of this is because those characters are much older and less overall relevant in today's world.

 

 

There is certainly loud pushback on a lot of assumptions about comic book/cartoon characters today, however. Some of the more common ones that I'm aware of (with exceptionally minimal understanding of the comic book scene since I have never read them) are things like the Hawkeye Initiative (the most classic pose being the various ones where a woman character is able to show off both her chest and ass cleavage in the same shot).

 

Comic Cons and the like (as well as game cons, and really a lot of places of geek culture that have historically been heavily dominated by males) have started to see movements such as Cosplay is not Consent because it's enough of a problem. A friend of mine is a member of the 501st Legion out of Calgary (and is actually a huge fan of Darth Nihilus and has frequently cosplayed as him) and has had to deal with it personally herself.

 

 

 

See my point about cryptopatriarchality above, you are taking it upon yourself to speak for "the poor ignored women" who, according to your imagination, are offended by the lack of bulging penii in games. Seriously, women are a) individuals b) very capable of fighting their own battles, c) without men or other women telling them what to do. Bs like this is what stands in the way of true equality.

Please note that you are coming across as stating that my opinion is merely one of a "special interest group" which comes across as a bit dismissive, at best. I don't have this perspective because it isn't something that I think is a good thing.

 

 

 

Crazy talk, every thing in gaming is a place for serious debate.

Given that gaming is ostensibly a luxury good that, if it disappeared from the world tomorrow would result in us simply "finding something else to do" I think there's a reasonable argument that virtually all issues in gaming are of relatively similar importance, irrespective of whether or not you consider it of high or low importance.

 

 

I find it hilarious when white knights assume they know what the majority of women want. Of course, assuming they know best what a certain group wants and getting outraged for them is prototypical white knight behavior. It's funny that white knights see themselves as some kind of moral role models and waging the war on stereotyping when their actions are the very definition of stereotyping.

I find it insulting, and conveniently dismissive, that you seem to feel that my position is one of white knighting because evidently I think I know what's best for the majority of women, as opposed to simply being the position of myself and other people, men and women, that I know share the same opinion as me. Would you say your perspective is particularly "prototypical" in a different way? Or, like me, is it a situation of "This is the way I feel, therefore I don't feel I'm being a stereotype" even if the opposite perspective does feel that way?

 

 

I don't think forcing the issue is the way to go about it. But i'm sure that there is an ulterior motive behind the people who pursue this issue; whether they realize it or not. In my mind if they honestly cared so much about equal representation on games they would get a degree in computer science, or digital art, or any game related fields and be the change they want to see in the world.

Many of them are starting to get those degrees (or relevant professional expertise in whatever field they feel is appropriate - though there is still potential systemic issues and cultural challenges that may exist).

 

But I still think it's (in)convenient to dismiss people asking for features that they want to be simply "forcing the issue." If you remove a customer's ability to request something from a game, you're just removing a particular form of feedback. Without it, you don't get Double Fine making a kickstarter, which helped prompt a lot of other studios to make kickstarters, including Obsidian's. Crowd funding is effectively a way for people to provide the monetary backing to previously established verbal discourse. Obsidian had reasonable assurances that they could crowd fund Project Eternity because people on this forum talk about what they like about Obsidian's games, and so forth.

 

Would this mean that any feedback for what someone would like to see in a game is effectively "forcing the issue?"

 

 

And to Alan... Mario is japanese character. Japanese developers shown in the past much more flexibility than their western counterparts, when it goes about depicting various body types and character types or trying to keep away from typical stereotypes. As an example for all could be used Drakensang series...

That's nice, but it's still a game with immense exposure pretty much anywhere video games are played. As such, the exposure of Mario as a protagonist is more pervasive. The same goes for a lot of games that come out of Japan, although many games from Japan will never make it over due to cultural dissimilarities.

 

there are lot of women who do not consider big boobs in games as objectification of their gender

This is absolutely true. There are lots of people that don't consider DRM a bad thing either (to use an example that I hope resonates a bit more closely for you). I hope you can understand that this means that your position on DRM is not irrelevant, simply because others don't share it.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't even talking to you Alan, but to our resident breastaleban, Bruce. Unless you mean I gave your argument the worst possible offence, and ignored it. You did lose 500 respect points for bringing in the me3 ending, though... Unless you mean that the people calling for changes were also labeled a "vocal minority" and "special interest" group and dismissed... And since you brought it up, remember when Bioware promised changes to that atricious ME book before ME3's release... Yeah.

 

I'm on a tablet and cba to edit out tha parts that weren't directed at me, sorry. I'm also rather drunk from a nice whiskey tasting with coworkers, so even the Obsidian board won't make me lose my good mood. Sorry about that, too.

[Lord of Lost Socks]

Am I the only who thinks that muscular men in video games that are all about being physical and stuff actually makes sense, while slim big-boobed women with no discernable muscles don't?

 

I don't feel particurarly objectified if I'm playing the greatest warrior ever (Conan) and have muscles, because someone who is a badass mother****er with a sword, would probably have muscles. For some reason, I do feel women are objectified since their designs rarely make sense for the type of stuff they do.

 

I mean, I'm not that strong, but I'm pretty sure I'm stronger than someone who looks like this:

 

 

 

Is it really that hard to spot? And to people who say "Who cares?", a lot of people do. Since you don't I guess you don't mind video games making more sense, and those who do want big boobs might as well say that's what they want and not try to contrive arguments about men being objectified.

 

On that note, I really don't care what the characters look like that much, it doesn't really affect my gameplay, but it also makes little sense. Ms. Cleavage and Mr. Muscles should not be equally strong physically. She might be more flexible and whatnot, but then make that a feature. If a woman is strong, then show that she has muscles too. Same goes for boob armor. It doesn't actually make that much sense, unless it's ceremonial, i.e. meant to be looked at and not used, i.e. sexy.

 

Now, notice that I'm not really commenting on how big a womans boobs are, though those are a hindrance if they're too large, I'm just pointing out that female character models often make little sense. However, Hollywood is at least almost as bad at this, so why only blame video games.

 

Also, here's an interesting point about objectification of men: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

Granted, some women want to play a sexy person even if they are not sexy in real life. Which is fine. As I said, it doesn't affect me at all.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Lord of Lost Socks

[Zoraptor]

keep saying "fact" (capitalized and in caps? you is just so darn cute when you is being ridiculous)

You don't speak Volo? And I thought there was a secret club house for those with interesting mannerisms somewhere out in the aether of the internet.

 

main difference 'tween a character and a caricature in crpg (or any video game for that matter) is conceit. if a person thinks dogmeat or dove don't rise to the level of your vaunted and imprecise threshold of "character," then they is relegated to caricature? *snort* Gromnir uses the caricature nomenclature our-self, from time to time. is little more than an insult, and a meaningless insult if we fail to supply a rationale for the disparagement.

You've got a rationale for the description, any character that you can accurately describe with just a few words. Oh, it's subjective for sure, most things are and I've seen people who think the average Bethesda cardboard cut out is deep and well characterised- I'd likely disagree with them but I leave it to other people to decide where they personally draw the line.

 

first impression is a very important aspect of character development, particularly in visual media. your continued attempts to isolate and distinguish those initial impressions the audience has of a character does not lessen their inclusion and importance to overreaching character development.

You brought up PST and Chris Avellone, and tried to use that to nitpick my wording when near the entirety of PST was about subverting expectations from first impressions- the chaste succubus, the evil angel, the anarchist machine etc. Caricatures never transcend their initial impression nor are anything other than cliche and stereotype- that's a FACT, a fact and indeed their definition. There is a distinction between first impression and character development for a reason.

[BruceVC]

Am I the only who thinks that muscular men in video games that are all about being physical and stuff actually makes sense, while slim big-boobed women with no discernable muscles don't?

 

I don't feel particurarly objectified if I'm playing the greatest warrior ever (Conan) and have muscles, because someone who is a badass mother****er with a sword, would probably have muscles. For some reason, I do feel women are objectified since their designs rarely make sense for the type of stuff they do.

 

I mean, I'm not that strong, but I'm pretty sure I'm stronger than someone who looks like this:

 

 

 

 

 

Also, here's an interesting point about objectification of men: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

Granted, some women want to play a sexy person even if they are not sexy in real life. Which is fine. As I said, it doesn't affect me at all.

 

That's a good video and one of the few times I agree with Jim Sterling. He echoes one of my points in this thread, certain games objectify women. Men are not objectified but if they were like women we wouldn't be very happy. I like the way he brings in this concept of men being idealised, it makes sense

Edited January 22, 2014 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

 

there are lot of women who do not consider big boobs in games as objectification of their gender

This is absolutely true. There are lots of people that don't consider DRM a bad thing either (to use an example that I hope resonates a bit more closely for you). I hope you can understand that this means that your position on DRM is not irrelevant, simply because others don't share it.

 

 

I think u misunderstood my position on this "issue"... Just to make it clear, I find it ridiculous that some people are finding insulting when some fictional character wears bigger cups as much as i find ridiculous that people are crying that changing cups two sizes smaller is immersionbreaking issue...

 

I love in games I play big variety of characters, personalities and tropes, therefore I prefer to play Japanese games, because in contrast to most of the western games, I do not feel like attending a sausage party overflowing with testosterone

 

EDIT: But although I see these two groups both as ridiculous, I do not see their oppinions as irrelevant... I only think, that if these two groups are unable to come to some rational compromise, it will greatly affect the variety of artstyle out of our beloved entertainment medium...

Edited January 22, 2014 by Mamoulian War

[Gromnir]

 

keep saying "fact" (capitalized and in caps? you is just so darn cute when you is being ridiculous)

You don't speak Volo? And I thought there was a secret club house for those with interesting mannerisms somewhere out in the aether of the internet.

 

main difference 'tween a character and a caricature in crpg (or any video game for that matter) is conceit. if a person thinks dogmeat or dove don't rise to the level of your vaunted and imprecise threshold of "character," then they is relegated to caricature? *snort* Gromnir uses the caricature nomenclature our-self, from time to time. is little more than an insult, and a meaningless insult if we fail to supply a rationale for the disparagement.

You've got a rationale for the description, any character that you can accurately describe with just a few words. Oh, it's subjective for sure, most things are and I've seen people who think the average Bethesda cardboard cut out is deep and well characterised- I'd likely disagree with them but I leave it to other people to decide where they personally draw the line.

 

first impression is a very important aspect of character development, particularly in visual media. your continued attempts to isolate and distinguish those initial impressions the audience has of a character does not lessen their inclusion and importance to overreaching character development.

You brought up PST and Chris Avellone, and tried to use that to nitpick my wording when near the entirety of PST was about subverting expectations from first impressions- the chaste succubus, the evil angel, the anarchist machine etc. Caricatures never transcend their initial impression nor are anything other than cliche and stereotype- that's a FACT, a fact and indeed their definition. There is a distinction between first impression and character development for a reason.

 

1) any character can be described in a few words, but you is correct that it is complete subjective... so, is a FACT that you again make no point. 

 

2) there were no nitpick of your wording... we will quote AGAIN (kinda fun) but is getting tedious.

 

3) once again, cause maybe this time is the charm, first impressions is one aspect o' character development. your attempt to distinguish is akin to telling us that 5, 7, 5 is not actual an attribute o' haiku. REAL haiku is 'bout balance and evocative imagery combined to achieve a transcendent whole. is NOT 5, 7, 5. *shrug* sorry, but just as you cannot develop a character without introducing that character in some manner, you cannot has haiku w/o 5, 7, 5. you wanna claim that chrisA's haiku is terrible? then argue that all that he achieved was 5, 7, 5. chrisA embraces the notion that with visual media, particularly video games, introducing the character is a far more important aspect o' character development than it may be in other media. is Gromnir's contention that chrisA relies too heavily on this belief... but that is for another thread entire. regardless, the attempt to perform some kinda gross surgical procedure and toss the bloody and cancerous mass that is the character introduction onto the operating theater floor, leaving CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT free of its diseased influence is only gonna successful occur in zor's imagination. 

 

4) (a) we should dispense with this "first impression" nonsense as well. am seeing how zor latches onto such silliness. first of all, writers and developers INTRODUCE the character and the audience makes a firstest impression. two different players of a game may have different first impressions of same character. let us at least get correct vocab. writer is trying to create a first impression with intro material, but first impression is actual a function o' audience. (b) next, it were stated earlier that chrisA believed that the HOOK were of especial importance (primacy in point o' fact) in video game character development. chrisA also recognized that the HOOK were frequent visual in nature. that being said, there is nothing compelling the developer to makes the HOOK part of the character intro. in point o' fact, we can see wherein it would be much more powerful if the hook were revealed some time after intro. jeckel & hyde characters is probable not gonna have their HOOK revealed as part of intro-- audience impressions o' character after hook will hopefully be antagonistic with first impressions, yes?  © "Ultimately though, the problem is one of Character vs Caricature. If you're dealing primarily with developing a character then the physical appearance of that character tends to be less important whether male or female."so, we is back full circle and having to deal with zor silliness. *sigh* according to chrisA, the MOST important aspect o' the character development process is the HOOK, which is frequent tied directly to appearance. this is direct antagonistic with zor quote. because we is dealing with visual media, physical appearance is necessarily impacting character development. admittedly, game developers does cheap route thing and create an obvious hook rather than embracing subtlety, but regardless, would be ignorant, and bordering asinine, to pretend that physical appearance is less important. no doubt we eventually reach point wherein physical changes to characters has as much impact in video games as they does in tv and/or film, but regardless, am thinking by now it should be painful obvious that appearance is not less important.

...

 

maybe zor is a visual learner. you need a chart or graph or somesuch? you got so far adrift that we thinks you might just need navigation charts to get back, but that is what happens when you argue silly side-points 'stead o' actual issues. hopefully we has given you a way to steer back on course. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am done for awhile with the full caps bit. being crude doesn't bother us overmuch, but we not seem to be able to embrace as does zor. am getting that it can be used in lieu of having an actual point, but it won't be finding a permanent spot in our repertoire anytime soon. nevertheless, feel free to continue.

[Zoraptor]

Well, I can't say I didn't know you'd have a problem admitting you were wrong.

 

Still, the haiku analogy was intentionally amusing.

[Gromnir]

Well, I can't say I didn't know you'd have a problem admitting you were wrong.

 

 

speaking of amusing, is you going for irony, or just being hypocritical? am guessing it is hypocrisy, but if we is wrong, we apologize in advance.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nepenthe]

Ok, still not probably fully sober. Carry on.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Nepenthe

[alanschu]

Boy, did he multiquoted the heck out of us.

I used to make individual posts in response to many different people, but have been told by some that they find that annoying too.

 

I think I just need to come to grips with the fact that I'm annoying

 

 

@Alanschu: the phrase "forcing the issue" was something I deliberately choose because of two things, the type of rethoric that its being used (Tropes vs Women and the like) and the fact that there isn't a clear idea of what the women's vg market is. BTW I do agree that growth in the industry is a good thing (as I like being employed) but with what's going on with AAA releasing less games and hiking up production costs, that growth is unlikely to be lateral.

You touched upon crowd funding, which is a great place to prove whether or not the "half of gamers are women" demographic is true. If there is a growing games for females market then it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that a female targeted project would find funding.

Well, I think some of the Tropes vs Women stuff is still useful to consider, even if men were 100% of the gaming market. Though when I meant growth in gaming, I actually wasn't referring to the quantity of games, but the number of gamers. I agree that AAA is releasing less games overall (a decision I do not think is a bad one, btw), aggregate game sales continue to trend upward.

 

I still consider Kickstarter/crowd-funding to be quite niche, though. In order to get exposure for it, you need to be in the places to get exposure for it. And I'd argue that plenty (most) men are included in being oblivious towards crowd funded games. This is all just supposition on my part though; I don't have any data or anything like that. Just a gut feeling.

 

 

 

Yeah, if only these were the problems the west had to tackle, even within the context of discrimination. I'll have to check for myself how big this "outrage" was, but I don't think it was all that large at least from first looking, but who knows. Even if it is a small segment, though, I suppose it's not worth it getting the social justice crusader types on their case like RPS, else interviews with them will be come ambushes like HoTS

I don't get the impression that Wildstar's feedback was "outrage" either. Just feedback. I think because it involved a contentious topic, however, there's an immediate impetus for a train of thought to simply be "More moral outrage."

 

 

Not really, was aiming at certain game types are going to require certain body types, so you're restricted there and you'll still see people upset over that, oddly. Which was pretty much what you referenced Nonek as, but I'm relieved to see you give me the benefit of the doubt.

I agree. As stated (and echoed by someone like Hurlshot), Sam Fisher needs to be physically fit. I think his body type is just fine for the game that he wants. Any soldier/infantry person or anything like that will have to be fit. Any reservations I have against a player model in, say, Call of Duty or Battlefield is that they tend to all be rather samey in their entire appearance: the gruff white dude.

 

For instance, I don't find that the Battlefield 4 guy has an unreasonable body type (and certainly not an impossible one): http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/battlefield_4_china_rising-wide.jpg

 

 

I'm not sure I can really relate COSPLAY IS NOT CONSENT to body types in video games (unless you're making a connection regarding objectification and how it spills out from fiction into real life and I'm missing it?)

Just pointing out that there is a non-trivial element of geek culture that gives me the impression that they feel women exist in geek culture specifically to be ogled and objectified, yes.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I wasn't even talking to you Alan, but to our resident breastaleban, Bruce. Unless you mean I gave your argument the worst possible offence, and ignored it. You did lose 500 respect points for bringing in the me3 ending, though... Unless you mean that the people calling for changes were also labeled a "vocal minority" and "special interest" group and dismissed... And since you brought it up, remember when Bioware promised changes to that atricious ME book before ME3's release... Yeah.

Fair enough; it may have been my bad that your issues with Bruce's comments were being more universally applied. Part of this assumption came from what appeared to be a general distaste for the perspective (including the concept of the feminist fallacy) and that those that share it are doing it to help those that cannot help themselves. Mea culpa if that wasn't what you were conveying.

 

 

I think u misunderstood my position on this "issue"... Just to make it clear, I find it ridiculous that some people are finding insulting when some fictional character wears bigger cups as much as i find ridiculous that people are crying that changing cups two sizes smaller is immersionbreaking issue...

(Bold emphasis mine)

 

I don't think people, men or women, really care that "some" fictional character has bigger cups. It's more that *so many* fictional characters have bigger cups (or more specifically, unreasonable body types). Which is why I think it's an issue of overexposure. Coupled with the growth of gamers (and the increase in diversity that comes with that) is more people that feel it is something that should be discussed.

[Nepenthe]

I think my point was that a lot of the people promulgating that point of view _believe_ they are doing it for people who can't help themselves... Hence the "cryptopatriarchality" comment... Since by believing that women, as a collective, need one's help, one is, in fact, promulgating outdated gender views.

[Lord of Lost Socks]

I want narrative cohesion because I want it, not to save women. It's the same reason, I have a distinct distaste for boob armor, skyrim's magic, all MMO's, etc.

[Spider]

I think my point was that a lot of the people promulgating that point of view _believe_ they are doing it for people who can't help themselves... Hence the "cryptopatriarchality" comment... Since by believing that women, as a collective, need one's help, one is, in fact, promulgating outdated gender views.

 

I really don't think that's the case. I know that when I talk about these issues, I certainly don't. Alan and Bruce certainly don't either. Women are more than capable to speak for themselves, it's just that on a board like this, a vast majority of the participants are male. So it's fairly natural for those of use that share the point of view that oversexualization of women is a problem will speak up. Not because women can't do it themselves, but because we also care about these issues.

 

Not that I say very much, but that's mostly because Alan usually beat me to it and do it better than I would anyway.

 

Edit: or in shorter terms, what Lord of Lost Socks said.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Spider

[Malcador]

Also, posting about this kind of thing here isn't going to affect or change much.

[Spider]

Yeah, but that goes for both sides.

 

And I think it's important to talk about these issue in place where you normally converse. I know the chance of changing people's minds are slim, but it's important that people at least think about these issues, which they're forced to do if they want to do any real arguing with the likes of Alanschu. In the same way I appreciate learning the viewpoints of those whos opinion I don't share, because that forces me to think about things differently as well.

 

Unless it's just trolling like some people do.

[Amentep]

I think my point was that a lot of the people promulgating that point of view _believe_ they are doing it for people who can't help themselves... Hence the "cryptopatriarchality" comment... Since by believing that women, as a collective, need one's help, one is, in fact, promulgating outdated gender views.

I'd imagine that most people being bandied about as "white knights" aren't really trying to help people who are helpless so much as to add their voice to the voices of others - particularly in cases where a homogenous group of critics might be dismissed for pushing an agenda for their demographics or belief set by adding a larger, less homogenous nature to the criticism.

[Malcador]

Yeah, but that goes for both sides.

 

And I think it's important to talk about these issue in place where you normally converse. I know the chance of changing people's minds are slim, but it's important that people at least think about these issues, which they're forced to do if they want to do any real arguing with the likes of Alanschu. In the same way I appreciate learning the viewpoints of those whos opinion I don't share, because that forces me to think about things differently as well.

 

Unless it's just trolling like some people do.

alanschu has quite the backing, it seems  

 

But it does go both ways, but as the stuff here is insignificant it works in your favour so to speak as you're clearly not aiming to help save women or anything by posting here. Heh, though it'd be interesting to see how trolling is classed vs disagreement.

[Nonek]

Personally I can't see the point of this changing of breast size, the whole game is stylised and wholly seperated from reality, if they want to reflect reality then they'd best rebuild the graphics engine from the ground up. Presumably they want and liked the idea of a stylised game, so why the sudden change in direction to please the proportion of people who prefer smaller breasts, especially when breast size in the western world has been growing over the past few decades?

 

Personally i'd say that characters should be the developers or players business, if a character creator exists, and that they should adhere to the graphical themes and internal consistency of their games not try to cater to any minority. Especially not the minority who focus overmuch on the size of pixelated breasts, or prefer one size to another. To me it seems strange that all this attention is paid to physical characteristics, when far more damning are the female characters who not only are designed as sexualised objects but also are portrayed character wise as slaves to the protagonist, idle, unmotivated, stupid and not even capable of dressing appropriately.

 

I suppose it speaks to the modern obsession with looks over personality and achievements. Might be a good idea to open a thread on stylisation versus realism in graphics.