UI for Controllers

[D3xter]

 

I'd bet my entire savings that it has much less to do with Obsidian thinking "it doesn't work."

 

It's not that we don't think it could work;

Yes, you did an absolutely amazing job integrating Dungeon Siege 3 to be played with a Controller.

And that wasn't even a tactically inspired party RPG and main platform were consoles.

Edited October 31, 2013 by D3xter

[Messier-31]

Yes, you did an absolutely amazing job integrating Dungeon Siege 3 to be played with a Controller.

And that wasn't even a tactically inspired party RPG and main platform were consoles.

 

Listen, mate...

 

Dungeon Siege III ... action smash-many-buttons-at-once cRPG (no offence)

Project Eternity ... Infinity Engine based classic tactical cRPG

 

You still don't get it, do you? Also, there was a lot more than you originally quoted from J. E. Sawyer, if that doesn't explain the issue to you, than nothing will.

 

"Goodbye and thanks for the fish!"

Edited October 31, 2013 by Messier-31

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management. There were squad based RPG on the Genesis/SNES, they played a lot like JRPGs on the handhelds play now, turn based combat without positioning + direct control of one unit on a world map was common for the ones I played. They play nothing like Infinity Engine games.

 

Does nobody remember Ogre Battle from the SNES?  That's one of my favorite RTS games of all time, and it's actually a pure RTS that controlled well with a controller.  On the map, speed and positing were two of the most important aspects in that game.

 

In fact, you can move multiple units and switch units on the fly in that game.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Bill Gates' Son

[C2B]

 

Yes, you did an absolutely amazing job integrating Dungeon Siege 3 to be played with a Controller.

And that wasn't even a tactically inspired party RPG and main platform were consoles.

 

Listen, mate...

 

Dungeon Siege III ... action smash-many-buttons-at-once cRPG (no offence)

Project Eternity ... Infinity Engine based classic tactical cRPG

 

You still don't get it, do you? Also, there was a lot more than you originally quoted from J. E. Sawyer, if that doesn't explain the issue to you, than nothing will.

 

"Goodbye and thanks for the fish!"

I think Dexter was trying to say that DS3 had bad controller controls and in turn hinting at that Obs abilities to use controller controls sucks judging by his previous post(s). Edited October 31, 2013 by C2B

[Messier-31]

I think Dexter was trying to say that DS3 had bad controller controls and in turn hinting at that Obs abilities to use controller controls sucks judging by his previous post(s).

 

If so I apologize.

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management. There were squad based RPG on the Genesis/SNES, they played a lot like JRPGs on the handhelds play now, turn based combat without positioning + direct control of one unit on a world map was common for the ones I played. They play nothing like Infinity Engine games.

 

Does nobody remember Ogre Battle from the SNES?  That's one of my favorite RTS games of all time, and it's actually a pure RTS that controlled well with a controller.  On the map, speed and positing were two of the most important aspects in that game.

 

In fact, you can move multiple units and switch units on the fly in that game.

 

No, not well, not fast or precise. It's clearly not a well controlled RTS, selecting multiple units, with fast and precise movement. In Ogre Battle your units on the map are "squads" but they're not really multiple units in the way they control. Using the d-pad to control a cursor is even more horrendous than using an analogue stick.

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

 

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management. There were squad based RPG on the Genesis/SNES, they played a lot like JRPGs on the handhelds play now, turn based combat without positioning + direct control of one unit on a world map was common for the ones I played. They play nothing like Infinity Engine games.

 

Does nobody remember Ogre Battle from the SNES?  That's one of my favorite RTS games of all time, and it's actually a pure RTS that controlled well with a controller.  On the map, speed and positing were two of the most important aspects in that game.

 

In fact, you can move multiple units and switch units on the fly in that game.

 

No, not well, not fast or precise. It's clearly not a well controlled RTS, selecting multiple units, with fast and precise movement. In Ogre Battle your units on the map are "squads" but they're not really multiple units in the way they control. Using the d-pad to control a cursor is even more horrendous than using an analogue stick.

 

 

Considering how many RTS games I played over the years, I found the control well enough for a console game.  And it's not like many of PC RTS game had perfect controls.  I personally found Infinity Engine movement and responsiveness slow and clunky, and the bad path finding and weird collision detection didn't help in my cause either (which I know isn't an opinion shared by all, but that's how I feel).

Edited October 31, 2013 by Bill Gates' Son

[Amberion]

Starcraft was ported to the N64. And it was just as horrible as you could imagine.

 

edit: fixed the console. I blame old age.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Amberion

[AwesomeOcelot]

...I found the control well enough for a console game.

That's the crux of the issue, in terms of SNES games where you control a cursor via the d-pad I'm sure it was fine, at least on par with Sim City for the SNES. You cannot move the cursor with a d-pad from one small part of the left button corner to the top right in milliseconds. You can't click and drag in a second a group of units occupying half the screen. You can't select 5 units from around the screen in 2 seconds by pressing ctrl and cursoring over them. You can't even compare the two control methods, the gamepad can't do what a mouse can do, RTS from Red Alert to Starcraft 2 are very different to what you can do on a console. Even if Infinity Engine games had their own issues, Obsidian have a wealth of never games they can look at that implemented great control over units, I didn't have much issue with Neverwinter Nights 2.

Edited November 1, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[comport9]

Thank you dev's for answering the question and clarifying your position.

 

As I mentioned in my first post: benefit to cost ratio isn't high enough (in the dev's opinion) for them to devote their time to making the UI work with controllers. While it's possible to argue the merits of that, it doesn't change the fact that that's their opinion, and as such, their decision is the correct one based on that. (Although I wouldn't mind a more formal Kickstarter poll to give solid creedence position).

 

That said, I hope it won't be detrimental to the game if the UI was coded in such a way as to allow mod support. "Soft coding" the control inputs and UI graphics for instance.

 

And just to clarify some of my earlier comments. By "PC elitist" I referred to people who espouse the idea that KB&M is "always" better, that anything to do with consoles is "dumbed down", and that this type of game just "CAN'T" be played with a controller.

 

I played DA:O on both the PC and the 360. There were things I preferred with both. Controller for the 360; Options and Camera control for the PC. In both situations these were decisions Bioware made, not because they "HAD" to, but because they chose to focus on different aspects of the game based on their perceived audience for their respective releases. As DA:O is very similar, mechanically, to Eternity, I feel it's a pretty good barometer for how the game could be played with a controller. (Could also throw in how much fun Diablo 3, a much faster paced game, was to play with a controller here as well...)

 

Some point to the controllers analogue sticks as a detriment. And they are when compared to the mouse, but that's a small consideration, IMO, for a game like this. Those sticks are actually far more detrimental to the FPS games compared to mouse controlles, but that doesn't seem to harm their popularity at all. Regardless, I'm quite interested in the Steam controller (Even though I'm quite skeptical about the button placement...) which looks like it could be a good compromise for both sides.

 

In the end I don't think this has to be a divisive conversation as both sides have their merits, with the final verdict really coming down to personal preferrence. As it is, the dev's gave their answer and their reasoning, and I'm fine with that. I'm sure I'll thoroughly enjoy the game no matter the controls.

 

But if the dev's are counting... 1 vote from me for controller support.

[samm]

As DA:O is very similar, mechanically, to Eternity, I feel it's a pretty good barometer for how the game could be played with a controller. (Could also throw in how much fun Diablo 3, a much faster paced game, was to play with a controller here as well...)

Not too similar - Diablo III obviously uses a completely different design approach (dumbed down, yes, there you have it) to combat, and DA:O even in zoomed out state and high difficulty still was not as RTS-like to control as the Infinity Engine games - marquee selection, formations etc. - which are the proclaimed model for P:E.

 

 

In my opinion, whishing for controler support in P:E is as meaningful as whishing for it to be a 3D first person game. It's just against its very initially stated design goals.

 

However, I fully share the following sentiment:

 

 

That said, I hope it won't be detrimental to the game if the UI was coded in such a way as to allow mod support. "Soft coding" the control inputs and UI graphics for instance.

Edited November 2, 2013 by samm

[D3xter]

Thank you dev's for answering the question and clarifying your position.

 

I played DA:O on both the PC and the 360. There were things I preferred with both. Controller for the 360; Options and Camera control for the PC. In both situations these were decisions Bioware made, not because they "HAD" to, but because they chose to focus on different aspects of the game based on their perceived audience for their respective releases. As DA:O is very similar, mechanically, to Eternity, I feel it's a pretty good barometer for how the game could be played with a controller. (Could also throw in how much fun Diablo 3, a much faster paced game, was to play with a controller here as well...)

They had clarified their position in at least half a dozen of interviews that people posted right after you made your thread already.

 

And you do know that there are various differences between the DA:O PC and console version, even despite specifically being developed as a Multiplatform title after EA acquired BioWare?

 

- For instance, there was no zooming out Option on the consoles to get an overview of the Battlefield:

- On PC Friendly Fire is on at anything above Easy, on console it is disabled on anything but Hard and there set at only 50%

- During boss battles on the console version there are less enemies and they are easier to defeat

- In the PC version you can control the entire party or choose 2-3 characters on their own using hotkeys or the mouse for selection instead of having to switch through the entire team and being able to control only one at once.

- The PC version has a different and more intuitive User Interface similar to most modern MMOs with a Skill bar and a Toolbar at the top of the screen etc. instead of Radial Menus. Also you can use Shortcuts on the Keyboard

- The console version also has a few puzzle sequences, which have been dumbed down or cut out completely.

 

Please do go ahead and make a great Controller Mod for Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale or similar and show how you'd make it possible. When people actually see this succeed in an acceptable manner in at least a single game that doesn't involve JRPG-typical paused combat at every turn they might actually change their opinions on it not working.

 

A tactical party-based RPG also isn't a single char ARPG.

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management.

 

Darklands had a very similar RTwP system in 1992.

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management.

 

Darklands had a very similar RTwP system in 1992.

 

That's amazing how much of the elements are there, it is very similar. Also the mix of fantasy and historical setting, I love that in games, books, and TV shows. Never heard of it, doesn't seem to get the credit it deserves in discussions of important RPGs. It's also on GOG.

[Infinitron]

 

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management.

 

Darklands had a very similar RTwP system in 1992.

 

 

1990! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTraveller_1:_The_Zhodani_Conspiracy

 

Paragon responded to these criticisms by releasing an updated version of the game which gave the player the ability to pause the combat to issue orders to party members.

 

Edited November 8, 2013 by Infinitron

[AwesomeOcelot]

The YouTube clips of MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy don't look like the same sort of system at all but they don't say which version they're playing.

[teknoman2]

here's a simple experiment for those who want controller support no matter what. get xpadder, set it up and use the controller to play baldur's gate, icewind dale or any other game of this type. after af few minutes, you will put down the controller and pick up the mouse because it will be a pain to play like that

[Osvir]

@OP: Here ya go chap
http://xpadder.com/

 

EDIT: I didn't read this thread before posting this btw so pretty much what teknoman2 coincedentally said. Yep.

Furthermore, I think a controller with a software like Xpadder would only be "fun" in a solo-character-casual type game mode. Having 6 characters+Controller would get frustrating I believe. But 1 Character and Controller? Maybe.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Osvir

[babaganoosh13]

There's always xpadder if you're really dead set on using a controller.  Obviously, it won't be ideal, but I'm sure it will be feasible.

This. I've got a decent setup for DA:O with x-padder, where I use the two bumpers to toggle between different modes. For instance when I hold down my RT, the right thumbstick becomes my mouse. When I hold down my LT, I can access the rest of the quick keys that I don't use in my normal mode. Also, I have the LB & RB zoom in and out of tactics mode on all 3 modes.

 

It took a lot of tweaking to get a setup I was happy with. Of course, now I've pretty much shaken my kids need to sleep on the couch with me like they once did, plus I have extension cords on my K&M now too, so I'd probably go back to that route when I play it again since I have the extra room again. The right pad just doesn't have the same feel as the mouse for RTwP in tactics.

 

EDIT: If it were TB instead of RTwP, it honestly wouldn't make a lick worth of difference to me which one I used, regardless of my situation. Since there usually is no RT time limit on TB.

Edited November 12, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[Kronojon]

Might as well dredge this up, since I just got around to actually signing up on the site, and I'm interested in the topic.

 

As someone who is interested in using a 360 controller with this, I think most of us would be happy if an option was built in for us to assign movement, attacks, or mouse cursor to the sticks, and the ability to map other functions to the controller buttons of our choice without having to deal with xpadder or joy2key.  That's it.  Don't change the gameplay.  Don't change the menus.  Don't worry that their are too many functions to map to the limited number of buttons on a controller, I'll choose which ones I want on the controller, and which ones I'm going to reach for on the keyboard when I need them.

 

I use a keyboard and mouse all day at work, in an office chair, in front of a computer monitor.  When I want to relax while playing games at home, I want to use a controller, while sitting on my recliner, in front of my 50 inch TV.  Yes it will take additional work, but we're not asking that you put in the amount of work necessary to "consolize" the game, just recognize that some of your backers would like the option, even if the gameplay isn't really designed for it.

 

I find it hilarious that some of you can get so offended at the mere thought that some PC gamers actually prefer to use controllers.

[teknoman2]

get one of the valve controllers. they emulate nicely M&K so you dont need xpadder. they should be out by the time the game is ready.

[sb5]

Instead of writing up an entire book of how butt hurt you are, researching that matter would have come up with programs like joy2key or xpadder and such which are brilliant! Especially joy2key is shareware without much limitation nor a trial period and can do what you want. It allows you to map your entire keyboard and mouse to controllers, allows for dead zones, auto fire, shift keys to switch between multiple controller mappings for even more buttons, individual profiles and so on.

 

 

http://joytokey.net/en/

Older freeware version: http://freewarewiki.com/f/jtk379en.zip

Edited December 20, 2013 by sb5

[Silverfox]

Might as well dredge this up, since I just got around to actually signing up on the site, and I'm interested in the topic.

 

As someone who is interested in using a 360 controller with this, I think most of us would be happy if an option was built in for us to assign movement, attacks, or mouse cursor to the sticks, and the ability to map other functions to the controller buttons of our choice without having to deal with xpadder or joy2key.  That's it.  Don't change the gameplay.  Don't change the menus.  Don't worry that their are too many functions to map to the limited number of buttons on a controller, I'll choose which ones I want on the controller, and which ones I'm going to reach for on the keyboard when I need them.

 

I use a keyboard and mouse all day at work, in an office chair, in front of a computer monitor.  When I want to relax while playing games at home, I want to use a controller, while sitting on my recliner, in front of my 50 inch TV.  Yes it will take additional work, but we're not asking that you put in the amount of work necessary to "consolize" the game, just recognize that some of your backers would like the option, even if the gameplay isn't really designed for it.

 

I find it hilarious that some of you can get so offended at the mere thought that some PC gamers actually prefer to use controllers.

This.

 

I'd like to be able to use my X360 controller on my pc for games.

[teknoman2]

 

Might as well dredge this up, since I just got around to actually signing up on the site, and I'm interested in the topic.

 

As someone who is interested in using a 360 controller with this, I think most of us would be happy if an option was built in for us to assign movement, attacks, or mouse cursor to the sticks, and the ability to map other functions to the controller buttons of our choice without having to deal with xpadder or joy2key.  That's it.  Don't change the gameplay.  Don't change the menus.  Don't worry that their are too many functions to map to the limited number of buttons on a controller, I'll choose which ones I want on the controller, and which ones I'm going to reach for on the keyboard when I need them.

 

I use a keyboard and mouse all day at work, in an office chair, in front of a computer monitor.  When I want to relax while playing games at home, I want to use a controller, while sitting on my recliner, in front of my 50 inch TV.  Yes it will take additional work, but we're not asking that you put in the amount of work necessary to "consolize" the game, just recognize that some of your backers would like the option, even if the gameplay isn't really designed for it.

 

I find it hilarious that some of you can get so offended at the mere thought that some PC gamers actually prefer to use controllers.

This.

 

I'd like to be able to use my X360 controller on my pc for games.

 

you can... it just doesnt fit with every game. this one in particular cant be played with a controller... it's not possible to do it properly without compromising the gameplay

[Hassat Hunter]

I still think the reason why some would prefer to use a X360 controller for a PC game is cause they're horrible ports, that simply work better than way since K&M wasn't properly added.

 

But maybe that's just me...