Update #65: Ciphers

[Oner]

I admit I have a bit of trouble imagining how the class works.

I set my Cypher to go medieval on someone, charging his focus. While probably another two melee characters are whailing away at the poor target. Wouldn't the target die too fast to get a proper level of Focus. How much Focus do you expect a Cypher can gather before target #1 dies? Enough for a weaker "spell" against target #2? If they beat down two, will he have enough for a stronger ability/aoe?

 

If you fight alone, I imagine the damage reduction helps to gather high Focus should you need it. I like how fighter-type opponent can "actively" defend themselves from abilities/resistance lowering by being good at defending themselves. Refreshing change from Fighters Are Dum-Dum Their InsertMentalDefense Sucks Hurr Durr.

 

Btw, I assume these small ability sneak peeks are just a fraction of a given class' repertoire. About how many abilities can we expect from a character? How many class specific feats?

[lolaldanee]

 

is there a particular reason Melee damage is decreased when Soul Whip is active?

 

Because the cipher is focusing more on damaging/draining the target's mind/soul than actually causing physical harm.

 

wouldn't an increased rate of full-hit misses better reflect that?

if you fully hit,well, you fully hit -doesn't make much sense you deal less damage than anybody else

to gaze more often than usual when not fully focused on dealing physical damage to the body of your enemy sounds more reasonable to me..

 

i like the class very much, this will most likely be my class of choice

Edited October 2, 2013 by lolaldanee

[Lephys]

Let's see...

 

- Attack-stun ability with secondary, position-based directional cone effect

- Ally-targeted AOE radial burst

- A "the more, the merrier!"-style (it seems?) target-alternating mind-blade ability

- A pulse of agony based upon the specifics of a previous attack, but still differing in its effect on armor

- A MOBILE PONG STRIKE!

- Fantastic lore

 

*droooooooool*

 

So much tacticalness and amazement... @_@

[Osvir]

I am actually curious about one very important aspect of "Focus" that hasn't been brought to the "jury" yet...

Is Focus a resource that sticks around or is it something that depletes over time? Is Focus always 0 at the beginning of a fight or do I accumulate it over time?

Scenario 1: Focus that sticks around
- Fight 1, my Cipher gets 50 Focus
- Fight 2, a little bit further down the road, as I didn't use any of the Focus related abilities earlier I still have 50.
- I win Fight 2 without using any Focus again (just for the sake of example), and I reach 100 Focus and therein cap the current Focus Max.

Scenario 2: Focus that depletes over time
- Fight 1, my Cipher gets 50 Focus in the fight, no abilities used
- Fight 2, a little bit further down the road, my Cipher has now 35 Focus because it is a resource that ticks away slowly as time progresses

Scenario 3: Focus is always 0 at the beginning of any fight
- Fight 1, my Cipher gets 50 Focus in the fight, no abilities used. When the battle ends, Focus goes down to 0.
- Fight 2, my Cipher starts at 0 (because that's what it ended with after last fight) and works his way upwards again

These are the only 3 I can think of. If you are considering Scenario 3 for the Cipher, then I hope there are some "Talents" that allows the Minimum Cap before each fight to "go up" as the Cipher levels up~

Scenario 3: Extended
- Fight 3, my Cipher gets a level up and now the Focus will always go down (or up) to 20 after each fight. In this fight the Cipher got 40 Focus at the end of the battle, so Focus goes down to 20 (and stays there).
- Fight 4, my Cipher spends all Focus this fight that he accumulates and is down at 0 at the end of the fight, but due to the talent or level up related ability that he attained, the Focus resource goes up to 20 after the fight.

How is the Focus resource handled?

EDIT: I don't, personally, mind either of the 3 (prior to Extended) as they all have different strategical management to them as well as different tactical implication.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Osvir

[Michael_Galt]

I thought of something after reading this update: If all the other classes of people (paladins, wizards, etc) manipulate only THEIR souls, is there therefore a strong cultural adversion to the Ciphers, since they manipulate the souls of others? 

 

It seems to be hinted at, in that many people don't trust the Ciphers.  Additionally, given their inception, they were literally "boogey men".  Regardless of later political settlement between the 2 cultural groups, it seems unlikely that their general reputation would be likewise repaired.  And given that there are groups that interpret the meaning and proper use of souls differently, it seems very likely that there would be large groups of people (organized and otherwise) which would be religiously/philosophically/ethically opposed to people "tapping into"/"manipulating" the souls of others...  So perhaps having a Cipher in your party (or being one yourself), will result in hostility from various/many NPCs in game...

[Inertia]

Edit: basically asked what osvir did without reading the whole thread delete plz

Edited October 3, 2013 by Inertia

[NerdBoner]

this seems like a class that would be extremely useful in long difficult encounters were the Cipher could get insanely powerful...but otherwise a reserve character for smaller encounters since they wouldn't last long enough to bring out the Cipher's full potential.

[Archmage Silver]

Interesting update. I like the general lore behind ciphers. I think it could be refined and expanded a bit though, as you've probably planned to do. The cipher abilities seem a bit generic name-wise though, so I hope those aren't final.

[sb5]

Dark Sun's psionicist Thri-Kreen make a comeback it seems.. It'd be nice if you could play this class like an upfront fighter that isn't flimsy to begin with or being able to multi class into fighter like in DND2E

[PrimeJunta]

It depends how you look at it. The cleric has no devestating area of effect spells until high level. The druid's magic damage output is limited compared to the mage. They do get healing magic and good summons in return. However, you don't take either of them do deal with masses of enemies.

 

I disagree. D&D clerics have really good area buffs and de-buffs at just about every level. In low-level D&D for example a combination of Bless + Bane and, if necessary which it isn't, Cause Fear will make enemies go down like ninepins, and it just gets better from there. Blasting fireballs at them isn't the only way to deal with mobs.

 

Druids OTOH have a crazy powerful mix of debuffs, area attacks, and buffs. 

 

Clerics/druids do need a bit more tactical thinking than wizards or sorcs, but IMO ultimately they're a good deal more powerful even when ignoring the melee aspects. Being able to wear armor is extremely useful even if you never pick up a weapon. I made a build like that in MotB who just waltzed through the tough optional fights; I was surprised myself actually. (Hint: Implosion. If you've boosted your spell penetration abiltiies to the max, it amounts to a Win button, generally speaking.)

 

Druid is my favorite solo class actually, as they're quite decent in toe-to-toe combat, have a highly useful spell set, are provided with a handy meat shield, and have the most versatile mix of spells of any class. They self-buff like clerics, they heal, they deal area damage, they deal point damage, and of course nobody summons like a druid.

[Ansku]

Alas, I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone's question, but...

 

In battles against enemies too powerful or resistant to be harmed by the soul whip, cipher is either unable to use advanced techniques (or even repeatedly use minor powers), or is perhaps left with the option of attacking allies to gather the necessary Focus?

 

All in all, interesting update This class probably won't be my first choice, but I'm looking forward to this in a companion and/or replay character.

[Ansku]

This image feels way too empty for me. Unless this place experiences a lot of traffic, I just don't see how it would look like this.

I realise this is very personal, but I really like to see it redone.

 

Perhaps there are some grazing animals that keep it that way? The flowers and the longer grass and the bushes might taste bad or be thorny, which is why they are left, and the existing trees would be too tall and woody to eat, but any saplings would be nice and yummy, which would keep the area from growing more forest-y...

[TarponCrest]

I can see that much thought is going into these new classes. Thank you! This seems creative with a familiarity that made me vote for this project.
A thought, I know that in the past when characters can paralyze on strike, it can be a bit of a let down if there is no way to save without immo to paralysis. Hope the Ciphers need to be very advanced in training before they become capable of paralyzing 100% of the time (if ever).

 

Thank you for the update and keep up the creative work, it is going to be great I know it will!

[Tagaziel]

Please consider improving that art. Make it more serious. Your insects look like 1-4 lvl creatures, not like admirable foes.

 

Look how it could be, for example:

 

So a generic BOOGA WOOGA EAT YOUR FACE MONSTER? No thanks. They're supposed to be an intelligent race with their own society, not MONSTARS THAT EAT YO FACE.

[phesant33]

(As usual great new class, great law and interesting mechanic etc... exactly what we have come to expect).

 

One issue I can see, due to new fleeing engagement penalties coming with Eternity.

 

My question is around fight mechanics, when it comes time to power up in melee will I have to be careful in how we engage i.e. Will the ciphers be able to wear armour? and if so will they suffer any caster like penalties for wearing this armour?

 

This is actually made even more important by the melee engagement move penalties that have been introduced with Eternity. Will the cipher be able to rock up and tank some damage wearing armour while soul whip does its thing or will it be more of a rogue type mechanic where we flank and backstab/soul whip while hoping we aren't noticed. If they can't wear armour yet they happen to pull aggro for some reason, and we go to pull them back....running with engagement penalties...crit...gg 

 

Not complaining at all, it's an interesting part of the class. It didn't really matter with BG as you could just run away, at least this makes it interesting

 

Others have mentioned the increased micro but I couldn't find anything specifically answered on armour, and any such caster penalties it might attract. Sorry if its already been discussed, and thanks for the effort that goes into making this something new and interesting. 

[Messier-31]

 

Please consider improving that art. Make it more serious. Your insects look like 1-4 lvl creatures, not like admirable foes.

 

Look how it could be, for example:

 (picture here)

So a generic BOOGA WOOGA EAT YOUR FACE MONSTER? No thanks. They're supposed to be an intelligent race with their own society, not MONSTARS THAT EAT YO FACE.

 

 

The original art shows a creature that I find mysterious, even illusive... but most of all intelligent and dangerous.

 

The art proposed by Bester... well, let's just say that a B-class horror movie director would be proud!

[Tagaziel]

B-movie... That was the expression I was looking for!

[Ineth]

But yeah, we are implementing more oddball spells.  The oddball spells take longer to implement and have about a 50% viability rate.  Some of them just wind up being bad spells (not effective or confusing/impractical to use) and have to be revised or thrown out.

 

Are you considering spells that interact with the environment?

That's a great way to make some spells more "unique" and tactically interesting, imo.

 

Like the Lightning Bolt spell in BG2, which produced a projectile that got reflected off of walls... (which is a lot of fun when you're in a small room or narrow tunnel! )

[jethro]

In battles against enemies too powerful or resistant to be harmed by the soul whip, cipher is either unable to use advanced techniques (or even repeatedly use minor powers), or is perhaps left with the option of attacking allies to gather the necessary Focus?

Seems that way. But I would consider that a good thing as powerful abilities should have weaknesses you have to tactically circumvent. If you go against a powerful enemy and minions the cipher will have to attack the minions first and save his focus for the boss. If that is not possible the cipher might have to use an ally, in which case a strategic thinker could hopefully level up a designated focus battery ally by making sure that that ally is not hindered much by that soul whip.

[Gfted1]

...due to new fleeing engagement penalties coming with Eternity.

Do you have a link which details this?

[forgottenlor]

 

It depends how you look at it. The cleric has no devestating area of effect spells until high level. The druid's magic damage output is limited compared to the mage. They do get healing magic and good summons in return. However, you don't take either of them do deal with masses of enemies.

 

I disagree. D&D clerics have really good area buffs and de-buffs at just about every level. In low-level D&D for example a combination of Bless + Bane and, if necessary which it isn't, Cause Fear will make enemies go down like ninepins, and it just gets better from there. Blasting fireballs at them isn't the only way to deal with mobs.

 

Druids OTOH have a crazy powerful mix of debuffs, area attacks, and buffs. 

 

Clerics/druids do need a bit more tactical thinking than wizards or sorcs, but IMO ultimately they're a good deal more powerful even when ignoring the melee aspects. Being able to wear armor is extremely useful even if you never pick up a weapon. I made a build like that in MotB who just waltzed through the tough optional fights; I was surprised myself actually. (Hint: Implosion. If you've boosted your spell penetration abiltiies to the max, it amounts to a Win button, generally speaking.)

 

Druid is my favorite solo class actually, as they're quite decent in toe-to-toe combat, have a highly useful spell set, are provided with a handy meat shield, and have the most versatile mix of spells of any class. They self-buff like clerics, they heal, they deal area damage, they deal point damage, and of course nobody summons like a druid.

 

Just to be clear, I don't think a wizard is better than a cleric or druid in D&D. I also agree with everything you say about their combat abilities and would rather have one if playing a solo character. However, in a 6 player party I think running with no sorcerer or wizard is disadvantageous, because you are missing out on a lot of area effect spells, which can make certain combats difficult.  I don't see either the druid or cleric as an effective REPLACEMENT for the sorcerer or wizard in any I.E. games or in D&D 3.X. Mr. Sawyer indicated that this might be different in P:E. I hope in this case you can make the druid or cleric a replacement for a wizard. I would like to feel that I can effectively take a party with no wizard without hampering myself overly. I feel that in a game with 12 classes, that that should be possible.

 

Just as an aside, I do like the cypher. I have always liked utility character who can do various things. Normally in a 6 player party there is room for 2-3 such characters.

Edited October 3, 2013 by forgottenlor

[phesant33]

 

...due to new fleeing engagement penalties coming with Eternity.

Do you have a link which details this?

 

 

 

 

 

Project Eternity Update #44: The Rules of (Melee) Engagement

The vid

 

 

And the post

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts?page=5

 

In BG you could essentially just run off, now it seems you pay a price. All in the interest of giving melee characters more presence, great idea and should make attacking the back lines a bit harder

[Gfted1]

Oh, the renamed Attack of Opportunity. I thought there was something new. Thank you for the link.

[phesant33]

Sorry, my bad. Attack of Opportunity has a nice ring to it.

[Aedelric]

That was quite a fascinating read, thanks Obsidian.