Update #63: Stronghold!

[wanderon]

It just gets better and better!

[Gumbercules]

Great update! Probably one of the meatiest and most interesting in quite some time.

 

You say that the stronghold will be subject to attacks, but I'm wondering about the maximum scope and scale for an attack. Will there be the possibility of a full-scale siege, either as a random or procedural event or as a part of the main story? The siege in Neverwinter Nights 2 was a great idea, but I guess the technology level of the time didn't allow it to feel as epic as it should. This would be a great time to produce a properly atmospheric siege with armies clashing in the background, even if the actual gameplay remains within the scope of the rest of the game.

[khango]

This is my new favorite update.
 

[Arsene Lupin]

The email update made the mistake of asking me what I think.

 

....

 

I think it sounds too good to be true.

 

I'm literally incredulous.

 

I don't know, maybe it's because we haven't seen a real vertical slice of the game yet. Instead, all we're seeing and learning about are different parts--the mechanics of X, the features of Y, the environment for area A, the lore for setting B, etc., etc. 

 

And all of those parts look really, really good.

 

But they're disparate parts, and I have a hard time believing they could fit into a fully cohesive game.

 

....

 

So here's what I think: I really hope you can pull this game off. I really, desperately hope so. This is the kind of game the Western RPG genre desparately needs. Even if the game only realizes one tenth of its potential, it will be astonishing.

[JWestfall]

Sounds sweet, love it.  It would be superb (but I concede rather a lofty goal) if the upgrades led to various "trees" of customization, each developing into a different theme of sorts.  Evil overlord's castle, crusader's keep, sorcerer's stronghold, etc.

 

But really, I just want my stronghold to look like the one in the picture, complete with lightning.

[Lephys]

Suggestion: The ability to gather not-particularly-valuable/sellable weapons and equipment to your stronghold to be melted down by your smithy(ies) and used to produce upgrades/repairs (iron gate and/or reinforced portcullis, instead of a simpler gate; defensive cannons/anti-siege armaments; invention-type technological/mechanical improvements to things, such as a drawbridge, crank elevator, etc.). Or, maybe it even just gets used by your personnel and/or militia (if the walls are breached) to increase security/defense during an attack or other negative events.

 

It would be great if your stronghold prompted more practical uses for some stuff that typically becomes "junk" in most games due to its only real use being sell-value, and its sell-value being relatively low.

[ManifestedISO]

An evil-lord castle made of obsidian sounds pretty good. 

[SophosTheWise]

Love the update, I hope everything will be executed well. Because if those features are not implemented right, they could possibly be annoying.

 

Arising problems:

 

- How important is the Stronghold really? Because I would hate to see it becoming just a "buff and resupply"-place.

- How much time will we spend there? Because if it's not somehow embedded into the story, I see it becoming a problem later when you advance in the story and, for instance, never go back there. What would you do with pop-ups every ten minutes that tell me of things going on there?

- Attacks on the Stronghold are awesome, but how does the system behind it work? Is it just random? Because if it is, I'm pissed of. I want attacks to be meaningful and not just attacks. Of course there are robbers, but what robbers are actually courageous enough to attack a Stronghold full of heroes that could kill a robber with the blink of an eye? Also random attacks suck anyways, that has been proven in State of Decay. It's all just very gamey. But I think Obsidian can handle that well.

 

 

Potentials:

- Arriving guests with cool quests

- Stronghold as a part of the story in some way

- Meaningful interaction with the world, interaction that matters

- Maybe some political decisions to make 

- Having a trophy room with dragon skulls, helmets of brutal villains etc.

- Torture devices for the dungeon, see Inquisitor, especially for evil characters. Also possibility of ransoming captured foes. 

- not too RTS-y. 

[Failedlegend]

My god, I was gonna start a little check list saying th various things this does right, but wow that would pretty much just be rewriting what has alkready been written. This sounds awesome at its current stage, hell I even WANT to expereince the "bad" events just to see what happens/\

 

Few Ideas though:

 

- Allow us to refight any captured named NPCs in an arena like battle like BGEE has...no rewards of course just fun to refight previous boss battles especially with different characters

 

- Give the option to have idle adventutrers increase security rating since well their heroes, at the stronghold :D (as opposed to questing, etc. for loot and whatnot)

Again though I'm salivating over this game :D

[Norstaera]

It sounds like a lot of fun. I like the idea of companions doing their own adentures.

[JFSOCC]

Love the update, one question though

those upgrades, are the the same for everyone, or can you personalise your stronghold a little by branching upgrades?

[Fluffle]

Love the update, one question though

those upgrades, are the the same for everyone, or can you personalise your stronghold a little by branching upgrades?

 

Maybe in regards to the classes. Maybe a druid for example would upgrade his or her stronghold differently than a pure fighter.

 

Maybe a druid would as well choose a different way to govern the lands outside of the stronghold?

 

In short: How much class, race and player related customization will and should be possible?

 

Will there be some visitors/random events/upgrades that are class/race exclusive?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Fluffle

[Failion]

intesting design I like the whole prison idea. Maybe allow the player to torture prisoners for less costs needed in security but suffer a hit to the players reputation, morals and have the prisoner hate the player. Tempt the players have the prisoners be sexy females that the player can possibly romance or get himself in trouble.

[LadyCrimson]

Holy awesome stronghold, Batman!

 

....I was so not expecting this level of development/dimension to the stronghold. I was, for some reason, thinking it'd be "just a house" to put loot in and where party members could rest or something. This sounds fantastic. It gets 4 kitties from me.

 

:cat: :cat:

[DCParry]

A lot of fin stuff in this update. The mechanics of the keep sound fun and engrossing, and I can't wait to see specifics. While there are always avenues for improvements, it looks like the team has taken a nuanced approach to the game-play aspect. 

 

I am more interested in the in-world justification. Does owning the keep make you part of the established political system or the area? Do you automatically become a noble person of some sort? Or a vassal to a larger political power? Will you be required to fulfill specific duties, such as provide troops or supplies to your lord? If you are not part of the political system, how do you control the surrounding areas? Brute force? This also brings the prison addition into a new light. Do you have any legal standing to hold prisoners? If do, under whose authority? Are there any civic rules for the treatment of prisoners? If so, is it dependent on their social class or ethnic origin? There seems to be break out attempts and ransoms, but what about legal extradition? Or orders from your lord (if you have one) to release a prisoner, either because corruption and influence, or you have in fact illegally imprisoned someone. 

 

Hopefully some of these things will be brought up, I would much prefer the keep to be integrated into the world (physically, culturally, socially) then just a collection of neat things to do. 

[Lephys]

Oh, also:

 

How exactly will time be working? Will it be in-game real-time, where you trek through a forest for "4 hours" (even if it takes 30 minutes in reality, player time), and 4 hours have passed in the world?

 

Mainly I'm curious if you'll get messages about stronghold attacks and the like when you wake up from a campfire rest in the middle of the woods, or if time (for stronghold events and similar purposes) sort of jumps in segments, between quests/travel destinations. As in "if you just stand there in the woods for 30 minutes, nothing time-related is going to happen, but if you actually progress/transition between different areas or you rest, time will functionally pass."

 

Honestly, I prefer the abstracted "time only passes when you actually travel between areas/complete significant scenarios, etc." method, as I'd hate to be halfway through some mountain corridor and have "BAD THINGS ARE HAPPENING BACK AT YOUR STRONGHOLD!" pop up on the screen, and have my every second spent in that mountain corridor tick towards the inevitable doom of my stronghold (exaggeration of just some bad things I could've prevented.)

 

I realize the update stated that sometimes you'll have a decent bit of time to react to things, but, if it's real-time time, then it's either going to be some obscene amount of time (7 hours of gameplay time), that always gives you plenty of time to do several more things and travel to several more areas before you need to address the situation (if you wish to), OR it'll be an actual urgency-inducing amount of time, in which case you'll ALWAYS just want to go ahead and go back to your stronghold pretty much as soon as possible. Not to mention, even if you start with 7 hours, and it just ticks down, real-time, every time you rest or travel between areas, that "skipped" time is going to have to be factored in, is it not? So, you rest. Boom. The timer's down to 6 hours. Travel back to the city? Now it's at 4 hours.

 

Granted, I don't think it'll be a real-time player-time timer, but rather a "you have three days to get home to defend your stronghold," where resting or travel shaves clusters of hours off of that. I just hope that time doesn't pass constantly, a la Harvest Moon, so that you checking your inventory and such more often means that you have less time to finish what you're doing AND deal with a stronghold event (or any other event, for that matter).

[Osvir]

Other than that, the stronghold sounds great! I hope events surrounding it won't be too disruptive to regular gameplay, though (what's that about certain events requiring immediate attention, will I be teleported? Please don't send me notifications, like angry spam emails, about every little event that takes place in my home while I'm off killing undead.)

 

And a request: please, no magic psychic reports "you are attacked!" while I'm 8 floors underground in a dungeon. 

 

I want to chime in with these two chaps. Great update, the Stronghold sounds exciting :D the notification business is really the only thing that made me raise a curious eyebrow a la "How will this be handled?".

 

Of course it is nice to get notified so that you can defend the place, but getting spammed and/or getting informed in another situation where I am engaged and/or immersed will break the experience. Kind of: "What an awesome place I am in, the story is great, the enemies are challeng.... *beep beep beep* ... stronghold attacked!?!? Need to defend!!". And also getting notified in the middle of a battle and hearing "You are being attacked!!" could get stressful.

 

How exactly do you get notified? And can you somehow "turn off" the notification (I.E: telling your stronghold management team "Don't notify me when I am out in the world"). Or is it "notified" between instances? (When you are about to exit or enter an new area)

 

Some ideas:

- Messenger Birds & Messengers, Runners (Over land)

- As for Dungeons I think there could be a Stronghold upgrade (depending on how Cipher's work) that allows a Cipher to telepathically communicate with your character.

- Running out of a dungeon and finding a dead messenger near a random small spawned mob (3-4 units) that carries a message "You are being attacked!!". This allows me to possibly finish an entire dungeon (or as I need to go and make a pit stop near a camping area) and get also get immersed into the sense of protecting my castle (after all, how long has the messenger been lying there? Maybe I'll return to the stronghold and it is heavily under siege).

 

Final questions:

What happens if the Stronghold is lost to the attackers? Who are the attackers and who can they be? (Rival Factions or random mobs of enemies?) In case other "powers" can occupy the Stronghold, how does that affect the land around it and how does it affect Factions? Can I also send parties on expeditions to explore the reaches outside the Player explorable world in PE? (Outside of the map pretty much)

 

Again,  great update and great features :D I'm really looking forward to this game experience.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Osvir

[duckroll]

This was a fantastic update to read. I'm really happy to see Tim Cain having a great time designing and programming stuff he's really passionate about. It's great for him and it's great for us as fans. The Stronghold sounds like it's coming together really well, and it's one of the aspects of the game I'm really excited about. I hope that the random events and options in the Stronghold are not all entirely based on combat and commerce though. Those are obviously the most obvious things to put in first, but I'll personally appreciate some events and upgrades which have to do with aesthetics, worldbuilding, and just general flavor. Like things tied to the customs of the local populace, or cosmetic upgrades which allow me to customize the decor, etc.

 

Thanks again for the update and keep up with the great work. :D 

Edited September 4, 2013 by duckroll

[Sensuki]

If you have cleared the dungeon and built a prison under your stronghold, then when you are fighting some of the named NPC’s in the game, you will be given an option to take them prisoner instead of killing them. Prisoners are kept in a cell in your prison, where you can visit them and talk to them, and occasionally use them as leverage later in the game.p

 

 

This update has the Sensuki seal of approval.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[mousehopper]

This was an excellent and informative update.    Thanks.  The stronghold sounds like a great idea with lots of fun options for the player.  Will look forward to trying it out.

[Wirdjos]

Of course it is nice to get notified so that you can defend the place, but getting spammed and/or getting informed in another situation where I am engaged and/or immersed will break the experience. Kind of: "What an awesome place I am in, the story is great, the enemies are challeng.... *beep beep beep* ... stronghold attacked!?!? Need to defend!!". And also getting notified in the middle of a battle and hearing "You are being attacked!!" could get stressful.

 

This is extremely important. I'm replaying Baldur's Gate 2 at the moment and apparently Jaheira and Aerie both think that the middle of a combat round is the best possible time for a heartfelt conversation. It breaks immersion everytime while simultaneously causing me to hate a character I'm supposed to be romancing just a little more. Making the the notification system as unobtrusive as possible will have a huge effect on its success.

[iridescence]

This all sounds cool. I'd love to see the slots for improvements be limited and very customizable so for example. if you usually ran with a mage heavy party you could forego some of the warrior training things in exchange for extra library space or something. It would be cool for the player to try to develop perfect synergy between their preferred party and stronghold.

[Monte Carlo]

Cheers Tim,

 

Amazing update. Am struggling to think of a single thing in there that isn't awesome and am failing.

[O.DOGG]

What a great update. The taking of prisoners sounds so cool. You know I had my doubts during the KS about how much good a stronghold would be but all of this sounds amazing. Thanks!

[Doomedpaladin]

I don't really feel like reading through the pages here to make sure what I've written hasn't already been covered, so I'm just going to repost what I said on the KS page (before I noticed the forum link at the bottom of the update, sorry). So if I'm retreading covered subjects, please just ignore me...

 

You're not fooling anyone Tim. We all know you're not wearing pants in that photo, but that's alright, the comforts of your workspace are very important.

 

You might consider a love/hate or respect/fear scale alongside prestige/security. Run a police state, high security, lowered love and reduced prestige (hirelings are mercenaries (****) but do what you say, companions though are heroes and might go adventuring without your say so "for the people's good"; minor +/- for having more or less perhaps). Using resources to aid the surrounding lands might raise or lower all the scales even if its just a text declaration and nothing visible actually happens. Take a look at the Pathfinder book Ultimate Campaign's settlement and kingdom building if you need any inspiration.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with companions and hirelings dying while on adventures, so long as you can rez them in your Maxed-upgrade stronghold chapel or maybe as undead minions in an equally upgraded crypt.

 

I know the reality is distasteful but please consider a torture/interrogation upgrade for the dungeon. Especially if you do a respect/fear scale the implications in game could be severe. Reducing the chances of a prison-break and maybe converting mooks into minions, but if one DOES happen an escaped villain gets put back into encounter rotation with buffs for revenge and your security/prestige drops as people hear of the horrors your dungeon commits. The actual room in the game could be as hands-off as a blacked out room or maybe used comically like in the old Dungeonkeeper PC games ( http://www.gog.com/game/dungeon_keeper_2 ) with a Dominatrix sprite and, as an old gf used to say, "yummy sounds".