Character shadows that improve blending in with environments

[cdx]

Loving the last update, just one thing jars me a bit - the shadows of the characters make them seem out of place.

 

One poster mentioned in the update thread the shadows need to be more solid around the legs - as the small distance to the ground allows for less dissipation. Another poster mentioned as a last resort the Fallout style shadows under the figures.

 

IMHO all these have two advantages over the shadows from the PE screenshot:

• They give a very solid base for the figures. No appearance of floating at all.
• Also, they never feel out of place (irrelevant of the direction the light is supposed to come from - as in the last two images)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a quick edit of the PE image with similar flat shadows for the party. 50% opacity black, following the shapes of the models (this was traced by hand after removing the original shadows and was a lousy effort). They should be very easy to achieve in-game (way easier than the current ones, I imagine).

 

While they appear maybe even less "correct" (and more technologically "old") they seem, at least to me, to fix to a large degree the "out of place" look of the characters. The image also darkens the bottom part of boots. This makes feet appear further away than the upper body and not in the air (there was a good explanation about this effect in a Shadowrun Returns update or article somewhere). This makes the figures a bit less "float"-y, too.

 

The changes should be the most obvious with the party member that is the lowest on the screen, as the ground there is mostly one colour and it is easy to see the shadow.

 

Picking a different angle so the shadows are even a bit shorter should improve the effect.

 

 

 

 

In summary:

 

More solid shadows make the characters appear properly anchored to the environment instead of "floating".

Darker shoes (less reflective of dynamic lights) makes them appear on the ground, not in the air.

 

Do you agree? Does this version of the image make the party appear a bit more natural or is it just me?

[Ieo]

I don't particularly care about the sharpness of shadows except in terms of rendering resource overhead; in one game I've played, you're given the option to enable true stencil shadows, "blob" shapeless shadows, or no shadows, all for differing GPU prices. My only minor gripe about the shadows in the original screenshot (and thus in your example) is that the direction appears incorrect given the stronger two points of light flanking the door as opposed to the more diffuse source behind the party. Actually, there should be multiple directional shadows from opposing light sources, but whatever...

[Sensuki]

The character shadows in the IWD screenshot do appear to be applied the same way as the ones in the Project Eternity one, but I agree that the IWD ones appear more natural as they are more grounded to the character model, whereas the P:E ones do appear like they float a fair way out.

[Silent Winter]

The strength / sharpness of shadow doesn't bother me but as stated, when it's going in the wrong direction (towards the light) it jars more than if simply under the character (which also makes them less floaty).

 

I'd have to see it in action though before I could decide whether I'd really notice in-game.

[rjshae]

For directional lighting, would it be possible for them to implement low-quality shadows that fade rapidly with distance due to ambient lighting (so as to reduce the computational overhead)? I'm thinking that a simple shadow that extends only a body length, say, may add to the look and feel without a serious impact to performance.

Edited August 12, 2013 by rjshae

[J. Trudel]

I think dynamic shadows are the way to go, in the tech video, the shadows apear perfectly moving with the ambient light and day and night cycle. IMHO they already got it far better than your ''quick fix''   

[rjshae]

I think dynamic shadows are the way to go, in the tech video, the shadows apear perfectly moving with the ambient light and day and night cycle. IMHO they already got it far better than your ''quick fix''   

 

Josh Sawyer already stated that they weren't including dynamic shadows because of the computational overhead.

 

Personally though I wish they would implement and leave that as an optional configuration, assuming it won't require a ton of work to implement. 3-4 years down the road even low end systems should be able to handle it.

Edited August 12, 2013 by rjshae

[cdx]

I think dynamic shadows are the way to go, in the tech video, the shadows apear perfectly moving with the ambient light and day and night cycle. IMHO they already got it far better than your ''quick fix''   

 

Yes, I like the shadows in the tech demo. They appear somehow more natural than the last screenshot. I thought the reason for this was that in the screenshot the shadows were a bit too thin and disconnected from the characters. I made "thicker" and more connected shadows. Otherwise the shadows I drew, the ones in the tech demo and the ones on the screenshot are all the same - shadows cast from one fixed ambient light.

 

As for shadows from dynamic lights... same thing. It just increases the number of shadows and changes the direction(s) it comes from (well, and the projection of the shadow). My comment would only mean to say to still keep the shadows more connected and thicker/solid than the ones from the screenshot.

[AwesomeOcelot]

The thing about shorter shadows, like the ones in Fallout, even though they don't make sense your brain interprets them as if they do. The light is coming from above, as if from the sky or a high ceiling, and since the ceiling is cut away, and you don't see the sky, it works. It's not perfect, you don't get shadows where you should, I'd argue against having prerendered lights that could cast character shadows but don't. Having long shadows that go towards bright light sources is the worst situation.

[Adam Brennecke]

Thanks for the suggestions!

[curryinahurry]

Honestly, indoors shadows shouldn't be a big deal.  To do them accurately in dungeons and caverns where most light sources will be from torches, sconces, and player equipped items, would make for long, diffuse and complex shadow patterns.  It might be better to do blobby shadows and make sure the characters are lit from the proper sides; which seemed to be a bigger problem in the screenshot for update 61.

 

One issue about outdoor shadows I noticed is that they seem to be cast in the wrong direction (up-screen) if the Dyrwood is in the Southern Hemisphere of the planet.  

[Frenetic Pony]

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

Duuuude, SSAO. Unity has an option built in!

 

Also unity has light probes, light probes! By all means, abuse those as much as possible for dynamic objects. Ditch the overhead light indoors and switch to lightprobes + SSAO or a blob shadow for low end. For outdoors ie day night cycles maybe you can light probe a static gray light and then modulate by the selected ambient. It's a win, a win I tell you!

[Hormalakh]

there was another suggestion on th codex too: lemme see if i can find it.

 

edit: nevermind: it was the "use the fallout short shadows" idea. Antoher thing that I hope they'e tried is a small shadow gradient from the top of the character model to the bottom with the bottom being darker than the top a la shadowrun returns.

 

but i'm sure these are all suggestions they've heard before.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Adam Brennecke]

We aren't using Unity's lightmapper, so probe lights couldn't be used. We have some ideas for alternatives that we are investigating.

[quechn1tlan]

As someone with a "weird" taste, but one who exists nonetheless, I just want to ask for an option to turn shadows off completely in the options menu. 
Shadows in games for some reason distract me from the gameplay greatly, while without them - everything seems right. So getting inside config files to look for ways of turning them off and sometimes finding out that this is impossible - is quite an annoying experience.

I know, I'm in a real minority here, but, still, would be nice to have this option.

[Pipyui]

As with others, the most jarring thing to me is the shadows cast in the wrong directions.  This only particularly bothers me when the characters stand next to point light sources, like the candles or the purple light in the "soul engine" screenshot.

 

I have no idea how such things work, but it looks to me like the devs are using a single fixed light source, abstracted at infinite distance - like the sun, to cast shadows on all 3D models?

What if instead, each character has a similar single light source tied to it, and environment light sources can act as modifiers to its virtual location?  When a character approaches a candle, their virtual shadow-casting light source is "drawn" towards it like a magnet.  Closer proximity, stronger modifier.  Multiple light sources shouldn't be too computationally complicated, because there is only one shadow-casting light, and each source's modifier can (and, I think, should) be computed independantly of the others (linear instead of exponential complexity).

 

This way, when a character approaches a candle, their shadow shifts away from it appropriately (if not with full 3D accuracy).  Two candles would cast an "appropriate" shadow between and away from themselves, as this virtual light source is drawn towards and between the candles.

 

This sounds reasonable to me, because it mixes dynamic shadow elements with something like the fixed and computationally-light "shadow under feet" shadows others laude; but as I said, I know very little of how lighting engines really work, so .

Edited September 2, 2013 by Pipyui

[Pipyui]

^ Too late to edit.  For clarification, the reason I think this works better than to simply have one light source shadow-active at a time is that it gradually shifts the shadow between different light sources, and approximates a shadow from multiple sources.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Pipyui

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Maybe something like a blend between fake "ray-traced" outline shadows (IWD) and a simple gradient spot shadows would something interesting to experiment with.
You could have a simple spot shadow in the ambient light environment (mimicking Fallout 1&2 in a way) and just crank up the intensity of the "ray-traced" silhouette shadow layer on top when a character is close to a strong point/directional light source. I think that you also could play with the geometry of the shadowbox (as they probably could be projected on a simple geometry rectangular plane), that way maybe it would be possible to stretch/contract the shadows e.g. when the party moves near a fireplace or something....

Also - while we touched on this subject - maybe you could come up with some animated shadow sneaky-like puzzles for our thieves/assassins

Or just do things your way, the game will be cool anyhow.