Evil - how far should PE go?

[Cultist]

Devs stated that there will be a proper "evil" path, and yes, I know that there is no alignment and evil is subjective, there is no evil, only perspective blahblahblah. Not going to throw another thread into that retarded "evil" debate.

The question is about how far game should go? A lot of subjects make people, used to carebear and fairy-tale games, uncomfortable and PE is said to be aimed for mature audience. There are common acts, considered as "evil" such as greed, stealing, treachery, murder and so on, in which most RPGs operate, but I am talking about more mature aspects:

- Slavery - confirmed already.

- Racism - always a pleasure. Enjoy your Orlans.

- Child killing - good times with Fallout. I'm curious what developer will bring this back in their games as I can't remember who made it into their games since Fallout. Dwarf Fortress, of course, is the exception.

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Cultist

[Morgulon the Wise]

- oppression/ psychoterror out of other reasons than the mentioned.

 

- pariahs

 

- organ/soul trade + illegal removals

 

- identity theft

[Aoyagi]

I'm all for what op mentioned if, as they say in Oz, it's justified by context. Child slaughter can be even used as a great game mechanic. You'd really like to use a powerful AoE spell, but there is a kid in the middle of the group. Of course, the solution becomes obvious if you have some anti-spell targeted buffs or something like force field. But it's just an example, I'm sure Obsidianites could come up with more and better uses .

Then again, they might choose the way of idiots from Bethesda and ban even for discussing such ideas.

[Sacred_Path]

I want realistic choices first of all. In a wartorn land where everyone is armed, that will come down to all kinds of violence and exhortation.

 

 

Also it's possible they'll include just a tiny reference to rape just so Roguey can go ape**** over it again.

[Archmage Silver]

Re: How far should PE go? I'd say include the elements that support the overall story and gameplay, but don't go adding crap if its only value is shock value.

[motorizer]

Re: How far should PE go? I'd say include the elements that support the overall story and gameplay, but don't go adding crap if its only value is shock value.

This

Nothing should be out of bounds if it fits the story and setting, but neither should anything be added just for the sake of adding it.

[Malcador]

I think extermination of whole race or ethnicy would be sufficient, but nothing beyond that.

What exactly is beyond genocide, really ?

 

Piling bodies up like cordwood is fun and all, but would be nice if you could pull off or witness/experience evil manipulations of people towards and end (or to just screw with them). Or at least just do stuff to get on FOX News.

[Aoha]

I hate the direction that modern games went in, so I hope they make this game realistic when it comes to evil playthroughs... and yes that includes killable child npcs instead of immortal ones.

[Kjaamor]

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

 

There's...something...about...that...sentence...that seems...a bit...harsh on...Josh...

 

Anyway, I'm curious for a bit of a Dev response here. What sort of certification would P:E be shooting for?

 

Personally, for something like this, I'd like it to either sit in the (to use British classifications) 15, or high fantasy 18 category (Fallout 1+2, THE ORIGINAL CONAN ).

 

I really admired much of the writing in New Vegas, but it was appallingly grim and on several occasions left me feeling like I shouldn't have bothered playing it (which is to it's credit). I just don't know if P:E needs that level of grimness given that it is essentially high fantasy. Dragon Age dipped in with a few gruesome pieces but it was never the horribly nihilistic sounds of people screaming as they're burning to death that F:NV was.

 

Obviously I'm not after a Disney/Pixar, but I don't want another game that leaves me feeling like I'm a worse person for having played it.

[Lurky]

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

 

There's...something...about...that...sentence...that seems...a bit...harsh on...Josh...

 

Anyway, I'm curious for a bit of a Dev response here. What sort of certification would P:E be shooting for?

 

Personally, for something like this, I'd like it to either sit in the (to use British classifications) 15, or high fantasy 18 category (Fallout 1+2, THE ORIGINAL CONAN ).

 

I really admired much of the writing in New Vegas, but it was appallingly grim and on several occasions left me feeling like I shouldn't have bothered playing it (which is to it's credit). I just don't know if P:E needs that level of grimness given that it is essentially high fantasy. Dragon Age dipped in with a few gruesome pieces but it was never the horribly nihilistic sounds of people screaming as they're burning to death that F:NV was.

 

Obviously I'm not after a Disney/Pixar, but I don't want another game that leaves me feeling like I'm a worse person for having played it.

 

Tim Cain mentioned in the Kickstarter pitch that they wanted to do an M-rated game, so I imagine that's the certification they're going for. That's 17 years and older, in terms of age.

 

I'm a little confused about the scope asked for in this thread, though. Is it about subjects that can be shown in the game, or about actions that the player can engage in? Because the measuring sticks tend to be different for both.

[Nixl]

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

I suspect that I should blame a certain rogue(y) for this one. 

 

As far as evil goes, I suspect the main source of "evil" is what you do with your companions more so than what you do in the world. Specifically, I assume that we can push our companions over the edge or sell them into slavery.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Nixl

[Ignatius]

I don't think that's fair to Sawyer, since in every instance where there is rape, it's to demonstrate the depravity of the character. He might go to that well too often, but it's a very effective way of letting the player know via a giant neon sign, that this character is a terrible person.

 

I'm a little confused about the scope asked for in this thread, though. Is it about subjects that can be shown in the game, or about actions that the player can engage in? Because the measuring sticks tend to be different for both.

 

I feel the same.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Ignatius

[Orogun01]

I still want a baby mace, that is all.

[Kjaamor]

Tim Cain mentioned in the Kickstarter pitch that they wanted to do an M-rated game, so I imagine that's the certification they're going for. That's 17 years and older, in terms of age.

 

That's exactly what I was asking (Thanks!), but now I have the answer I realise it doesn't necessarily answer my question. Fallout 1 and Fallout: New Vegas were both M-rated, but F1 was comically gruesome but fairly fantastical whilst F:NV had an awful lot of moments that were about more human darkness and I, personally, found it desperately unpleasant.

 

Which again, is not a criticism of the writing of NV, which was superb when it was at its most unpleasant, I just don't associate the IE games with being particularly harrowing, and I don't generally look to high fantasy to harrow me.

 

Ymmv, of course.

 

Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, it's not a deal-breaker for me if it is like NV, I'd just rather know in advance so I don't put on my 'let's go dancing with elves' hat only to get there and find a flashback of them all being stripped, raped and strangled.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Kjaamor

[Sacred_Path]

That's exactly what I was asking (Thanks!), but now I have the answer I realise it doesn't necessarily answer my question. Fallout 1 and Fallout: New Vegas were both M-rated, but F1 was comically gruesome but fairly fantastical whilst F:NV had an awful lot of moments that were about more human darkness and I, personally, found it desperately unpleasant.

Sawyer said on twitter (not a quote): mature themes doesn't mean only dealing with mature subjects but dealing with any subject in a mature way. So I wouldn't expect the comical tone of Fallout, but also not "everything is better with rape".

[rjshae]

 

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

 

There's...something...about...that...sentence...that seems...a bit...harsh on...Josh...

 

I agree.

[Lurky]

Tim Cain mentioned in the Kickstarter pitch that they wanted to do an M-rated game, so I imagine that's the certification they're going for. That's 17 years and older, in terms of age.

 

That's exactly what I was asking (Thanks!), but now I have the answer I realise it doesn't necessarily answer my question. Fallout 1 and Fallout: New Vegas were both M-rated, but F1 was comically gruesome but fairly fantastical whilst F:NV had an awful lot of moments that were about more human darkness and I, personally, found it desperately unpleasant.

 

Which again, is not a criticism of the writing of NV, which was superb when it was at its most unpleasant, I just don't associate the IE games with being particularly harrowing, and I don't generally look to high fantasy to harrow me.

 

Ymmv, of course.

 

Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, it's not a deal-breaker for me if it is like NV, I'd just rather know in advance so I don't put on my 'let's go dancing with elves' hat only to get there and find a flashback of them all being stripped, raped and strangled.

 

Perhaps this interview and this other one might be what you're looking for, then.

 

Just how dark are you looking to go with the narrative?

Dark’s a little boring to me, and it’s also too easy to fall down that hole in storytelling in an attempt to be pseudo-hardcore. Some of our strongest releases kept the dark on the backburner and cloaked it within a blanket of humor, and people responded to both.

Q: What level of disturbance do you intend to put into the content?

Chris Avellone: I don't think we're approaching it in the sense of purposefully trying to create anything disturbing. We did sit down and discuss a lot of themes we wanted to explore that normally we couldn't. Hopefully we can talk more about that in the coming months. We didn't approach it like "Here's how we're going to shock people," but it was more like '"Here's something we've always wanted to talk about" and we couldn't for whatever reason, like it was a franchise it wasn't appropriate for. I'm done with that discussion and now we don't have to have it anymore.

 

Of course, these are the intentions of one designer, and they were made during or shortly after the Kickstarter campaign. I doubt they stray too far from that, though.

[Failion]

This game gunna be a evil death satan simulator. You can roleplay as a transexual shapeshifting demon. Everyone sees you as a different person and is attracted to you. You can rape any of your story recruited npcs then bombard their minds with constant night terrors until they go insane and you eventually kill and eat them and develop your powers even more. Corrupt everyone, eat babys and **** uteruses. Welcome to project eternity.

[Nonek]

Setting vast cauldrons of hearty soup before the starving, and then making them eat it using FORKS! Muahahahaha.

 

Oh and gratuitous mustache twirling.

 

The psychological cruelty of the Practical Incarnation with his pawns (especially Deionarra,) and Michael Thornton's last exhortation for Mina to be quiet come to mind as classy implementations of evil. Nameless' manipulations of Ravel, Ignus, Daakon and Vhailor all also spring to mind as well done, thinking about it he was a rather ruthless chap.

 

Edit: The mocking of G22's Albatross, gloating over Sis' murder, rather shocking.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Nonek

[mcmanusaur]

Personally I think for the game to be considered "mature", it's not about recklessly empowering the player with the capability to perform greater acts of evil, which almost certainly lead to more immature playthroughs of the game. While "kill everything" playthroughs can be fun and I'm not denying that, they don't contribute to the game's maturity in any way (rather it often negatively affects the game's sense of maturity). This may sound strange, but for me NPCs are a different story; enemies whose crimes include rape and killing innocent children are fine and can be executed maturely. So I guess I'm fine with any level of evil present in the setting (as long as it's not senseless), but I do think that there should be a strict limit to the evil acts that a player character can perform. The game should focus on sound narrative and character development (if not actual roleplaying) over allowing players to live out their destructive fantasies. "But evil is my favorite way to roleplay..." Let's please try to be honest with ourselves here.

Edited August 1, 2013 by mcmanusaur

[Kjaamor]

Perhaps this interview and this other one might be what you're looking for, then.

 

Just how dark are you looking to go with the narrative?

Dark’s a little boring to me, and it’s also too easy to fall down that hole in storytelling in an attempt to be pseudo-hardcore. Some of our strongest releases kept the dark on the backburner and cloaked it within a blanket of humor, and people responded to both.

Q: What level of disturbance do you intend to put into the content?

Chris Avellone: I don't think we're approaching it in the sense of purposefully trying to create anything disturbing. We did sit down and discuss a lot of themes we wanted to explore that normally we couldn't. Hopefully we can talk more about that in the coming months. We didn't approach it like "Here's how we're going to shock people," but it was more like '"Here's something we've always wanted to talk about" and we couldn't for whatever reason, like it was a franchise it wasn't appropriate for. I'm done with that discussion and now we don't have to have it anymore.

 

Of course, these are the intentions of one designer, and they were made during or shortly after the Kickstarter campaign. I doubt they stray too far from that, though.

 

 

And that does answer my question. Much appreciated, Lurky.

 

From those sentences, I feel relieved that PS:T is heading in more or less the direction I would have hoped with this, whilst also retaining its fair share of original concepts.

 

Or specifically, I can imagine those elves being stripped, raped OR strangled, now, which is a level of grief in a video game that my mind can process rather easier.

 

Reading back, I'm making it sound like I have quite the elf-fetish.

[rjshae]

Once your evil character becomes reviled throughout the lands for committing acts of cruelty and villainy, I'd have no problem with the game balance being shifted heavily against you. It is totally realistic for abject evil to be hunted down and crushed by any self-respecting civilization. Those of noble bearing would be willing to spend significant sums of gold to have you sought after by highly skilled specialists against whom you would be completely outmatched. Thus, playing an evil character long enough to reach the end game should require a significant amount of guile.

Edited August 1, 2013 by rjshae

[Kjaamor]

Once your evil character becomes reviled throughout the lands for committing acts of cruelty and villainy, I'd have no problem with the game balance being shifted heavily against you. It is totally realistic for abject evil to be hunted down and crushed by any self-respecting civilization. Those of noble bearing would be willing to spend significant sums of gold to have you sought after by highly skilled specialists against whom you would be completely outmatched. Thus, playing an evil character long enough to reach the end game should require a significant amount of guile.

 

By the same token, the game should not be full of npcs who engage in savage cruelty for its own amusement, because I would expect those characters to be hunted down rather quickly - as much by other 'evil-doers' as by 'do-gooders' or what authorities there are.

 

But again, from what quotes have been offered on the development, it sounds like this is fairly in hand.

[Monte Carlo]

I am astonishingly old-fashioned: slavery, slaughter and murder are fine. Rape and killing kids? You sick ****s need turning over.

 

I don't really care about ethical inconsistency, those are my lines in the sand.

[Micamo]

There are common acts, considered as "evil" such as greed, stealing, treachery, murder and so on, in which most RPGs operate, but I am talking about more mature aspects:

I just wanted to say, I think that these things are labeled as "mature content" is, in itself, a problem.

 

- Rape - as we know from Icewind Dale, Josh Sawyer have a soft spot for rape in his games so we can expect even more.

As part of a character backstory? Throwing it around as a cheap way to make angst makes me uncomfortable, but as long as the victims are properly respected, sure.

 

Something the player character witnesses on screen, or even participates in? Heeeeeeeell no.