alanschu Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Probably reduced contact as well, many people have Twitter accounts but not many will bother registering with a forum to blather out some abuse to a developer. I'm not sure. In following someone like Mike Laidlaw or David Gaider, I still see plenty of happy/excitable posts from fans on their twitters. I think there's a degree of enthusiasm as well, when a developer actively tweets something a fan did (I know an author that squee'd when she found out BioWare loved her E3 reaction video). BSN has the reputation of being quite toxic (especially in response to the last two games BioWare Edmonton released). I don't think Obsidian is quite as bad, although I think Obsidian is not nearly as active. A place like RPG Codex I don't even venture into. In general, I'd say the overwhelming response to ME3's ending on BSN was a LOT of outrage. I would not say the same for the responses I saw to people like Merizan on Twitter. I found it much, much easier to see supportive comments towards the ending there than on BSN. (Though I haven't really broken down the numbers at all). To me, it made me wonder if different types of people frequented forums compared to twitter, and also if there's a degree of isolation (ironically) with twitter, in that you can clearly reply directly to the developer, and then just disengage after you said your piece. They don't- by and large- care much about the rampant abuse that happens in voice chat and the like, only when it spills over into their real world. I agree that this is an issue. I'd like to see software/hardware developers take better steps to improving this in a proactive way. Edited July 24, 2013 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Manners maketh the man, I know that it may be a somewhat old fashioned attitude but i've always believed that one should conduct oneself with a certain amount of dignity. Not to save others feelings, though that is a fortunate by-blow, but to maintain pride in oneself. I can't honestly see the point in threats and such, it's a simple statement that one has lost the argument, and cannot muster adequate logical responses. However I would hold developers to the same strictures, calling ones customers homophobes, entitled and misogynistic when they raise logical and reasoned complaints is also beyond the pale. Heh, funny story, I ran into someone who still works at a place I did as a part-time job during university. Apparently some of the old staff still remember me, and actually consider me a raging psychopath. Mostly due to one of the guys trying to start a fight with me there and doing all the standard macho trash talk to get me to take a swing. I calmly and politely explained to him (and the surrounding friends of his) that this was quite silly, because getting into a fight would suggest I wanted to hurt him, and that if I wanted to hurt him I wouldn't give him a chance to hurt me. I'd come at him when he wasn't expecting it, with a bat and take out his knee from the side before bludgeoning the crap out of him to make sure he knew that I wanted him in pain. I made absolutely no threat, and just pointed out that if he or any of his friends really wanted to start something they should remember that for the future. I was exceptionally polite about the whole matter, never raising my voice, never swearing. And I never had any trouble from them for the remainder of the time I worked there. 4 "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Cool story, bro. To me, it made me wonder if different types of people frequented forums compared to twitter, and also if there's a degree of isolation (ironically) with twitter, in that you can clearly reply directly to the developer, and then just disengage after you said your piece. They don't- by and large- care much about the rampant abuse that happens in voice chat and the like, only when it spills over into their real world. I agree that this is an issue. I'd like to see software/hardware developers take better steps to improving this in a proactive way. Mangling your post a bit, but I agree with that assessment of twitter. People can just drive by flame you, forums you tend to get more stuck in. May be the nature of the format and how that one liner looks on your screen rather than the twitter space For abuse in MP games, well other than providing mute functionality, what more could they do ? Speech recognition to check for bad words and auto-ban you ? Not a super fan of enforced politeness, even if you are forced to deal with mean people. 2 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Mangling your post a bit, but I agree with that assessment of twitter. People can just drive by flame you, forums you tend to get more stuck in. May be the nature of the format and how that one liner looks on your screen rather than the twitter space I wonder if this is an advantage of the condensed message length. Someone wanting to dump some rage is going to have to split it off and deal with additional inconvenience (and I could potentially block you before you have even said it all). How much anger and vitriol can one *really* get in 140 characters? For abuse in MP games, well other than providing mute functionality, what more could they do ? Speech recognition to check for bad words and auto-ban you ? Not a super fan of enforced politeness, even if you are forced to deal with mean people. It likely wouldn't be done real time, but some level of reporting and enforcement could still be done. Certainly moreso than now (which is little, if any, as far as I know). It'd require work and telemetry, however. I have heard ideas that people that are frequently muted could come into games automuted and other stuff that is less overtly invasive, as well as more punitive measures such as tracking those that receive numerous complaints and analyzing their games (with an observer or otherwise) to determine type of behaviour. A user's history would be a large factor. I'm sure there are other ways as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonek Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Manners maketh the man, I know that it may be a somewhat old fashioned attitude but i've always believed that one should conduct oneself with a certain amount of dignity. Not to save others feelings, though that is a fortunate by-blow, but to maintain pride in oneself. I can't honestly see the point in threats and such, it's a simple statement that one has lost the argument, and cannot muster adequate logical responses. However I would hold developers to the same strictures, calling ones customers homophobes, entitled and misogynistic when they raise logical and reasoned complaints is also beyond the pale. Heh, funny story, I ran into someone who still works at a place I did as a part-time job during university. Apparently some of the old staff still remember me, and actually consider me a raging psychopath. Mostly due to one of the guys trying to start a fight with me there and doing all the standard macho trash talk to get me to take a swing. I calmly and politely explained to him (and the surrounding friends of his) that this was quite silly, because getting into a fight would suggest I wanted to hurt him, and that if I wanted to hurt him I wouldn't give him a chance to hurt me. I'd come at him when he wasn't expecting it, with a bat and take out his knee from the side before bludgeoning the crap out of him to make sure he knew that I wanted him in pain. I made absolutely no threat, and just pointed out that if he or any of his friends really wanted to start something they should remember that for the future. I was exceptionally polite about the whole matter, never raising my voice, never swearing. And I never had any trouble from them for the remainder of the time I worked there. That's nothing, I once put the milk in before the tea for a colleague I was arguing with, and I used the second best china! He's still in trauma counselling to this day. 2 Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I'm not against abuse in MP games, they are deathmatches, not an afternoon tea. There just needs to be a way to get rid of the rampant racism and misogyny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babaganoosh13 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) I think some forums should have a "Silly Jibberish" button. For known trolls, and waaaaay too over the top people, there will be an option for a mod to click to change some key words that will be replaced by random silly words. "hate" "hope" "you" "suck" "die"... will be replaced by "whoopie cushion" "boogers" "horses" "pineapple" "goat cheese". Naturally, anything that is mispellen or are not real w0rd$ to try to circumvent the silly jibberish will be replaced as well. Put it on a timer for those that have otherwise okay reputations. Constant trolls can need to have the box unchecked manually. Chances are, they'll get so fustrated, they'll leave for a bit. EDIT: That could probably work for online games as well when it comes to typing. Edited July 25, 2013 by babaganoosh13 You see, ever since the whole Doritos Locos Tacos thing, Taco Bell thinks they can do whatever they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Obviously never been to the Diablo 3 forums. This is normal behaviour everytime patch notes anything is announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Problem with a lot of the schemes to prevent nastiness is they are open to abuse, as the investigations aren't exactly such. So you can get griefed that way. Heh, one good thing about user owned dedicated servers - admins around to boot griefers or harassers. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 As a target, you are sort of trapped like a louse between two finger nails. No reacting will re-affirm that you don't care about the subject, re-acting will be seen as confirmation that the abuse is justified. I've found that with a bit of practice, you can "freeze" somebody out by actively ignoring them. I.e. carry on the conversation about everything except explicitly what the abuser is whinging about. Nothing seems to agitate people more than realizing that they specifically are not so important as they give themselves credit for. Edit: That being said, somebody need to and it up their for the server merges and forced name changes in SWTor (still fuming mad, nerd tage over that one) “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 I've found that with a bit of practice, you can "freeze" somebody out by actively ignoring them. I.e. carry on the conversation about everything except explicitly what the abuser is whinging about. Nothing seems to agitate people more than realizing that they specifically are not so important as they give themselves credit for. This is my general mentality when on a place like BSN, as much to encourage thoughtful discussion rather than outright hating/fanboying. But there are days I epically fail. I did it recently on this forum actually, now that I think about it, which led to rather entertaining results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agiel Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I like to think the overwhelming majority of people eventually outgrow that phase and become very well-adjusted people. Some people I talk to say those kinds of people are lost causes but I always say that as long as I plant a seed of empathy and inclusivity in them, I will have made a difference that will pan out somewhere down the line. For instance, in high school a new student from Kansas had come into my class (I live in a very liberal part of Southern California) who had admitted to have been raised to be racist, which manifested itself in some casually racist jokes he told; by the time we graduated he grew out of it and his best friends were a black guy, a Jewish guy, and an Asian guy (me). And now I await someone who will tell me: "Silly rabbit, idealism is for kids!" Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 People do change for sure. Although I think it's actually, sadly, not entirely accurate that it's the 12 year olds that get all petulant. I fully bet that many of them are in their 20s and beyond. I'm 32 and can still be a twit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 People do change for sure. Although I think it's actually, sadly, not entirely accurate that it's the 12 year olds that get all petulant. I fully bet that many of them are in their 20s and beyond. I'm 32 and can still be a twit!Oh man, I could practically chart the varieties of twit I've been over the years. But I won't because it would be shameful. It makes me be a little calmer towards people who are being twits, knowing that I probably did that same kind of crap at some point in my life. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I've gotten nicer as I've aged, sadly. 2 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) I notice this in more than just gaming (I saw some articles about geek culture as well, and how people can be VERY exclusive in their views with things like cosplay = consent type stuff, and fake geek girl), but this article I came across is in response to some balance changes in Black Ops 2. http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/07/24/httpwww-pcgamer-com20130724cod-developer-receives-death-threats-following-blops-2-gun-tweaksutm_sourcetwutm_mediumemputm_campaignuk/ Basically, you get some level of death threats because of some game balance. Now, I think it's reasonable safe to assume that the threat isn't genuine, and might even just be someone trolling up a storm. I think there's undoubtedly some level of "well that's the internet for you" but, to me it does seem that there's a bit more outspokenness about these types of things (extending beyond just gaming). I've been told I need to have a thicker skin (especially when I first got started) as it comes with the territory of being a dev. I think I have gotten better, although still have my moments where I get snappy and jaded. At the same time, is it all only on me? I remember being told that my Mom should have aborted me so that DAO would have had some competent QA. I gave him points for creativity.... I never have agreed with the idea of "it's the internet, not much you can do about it" although admittedly had zero clue what could be done to do about it. In the geek culture article I read, they had suggested the idea that frankly, the culture needs to self-police more aggressively. It's probably the best way to do so, so maybe calling out "these guys are being stupid" helps paint a light? Does it just make the devs seem like whiners? Should he just "suck it up?" (If so, why? Note, I *will* follow up with further questions if someone does feel this way) I think forums tend to self-police relatively well. They tend to have a hegemony that will push out overly contrary posts, doubly so if they are hostile. Good post "it's the internet, not much you can do about it" I reject this stance completely. This is just an excuse for people to not to try to maintain a level of decorum or to deal with certain systemic problems around basic Internet communication. I think how you address the issue of rudeness and bigotry starts with you and how you deal with it personally. If you construct your posts as if you are talking face to face to the person and condemn other peoples post that demonstrate rudeness you are assisting to address this scourge. One of the problems is that most people are non-confrontational, so for example you could be reading someone's comments who is making a joke about rape. Rape is not funny, a heinous crime and is a form of sexism. Most people wouldn't approve of it but they won't say anything to the person who made the crude comments. We need to learn to make comments like "I don't find what you said funny at all" or a similar response. I made a conscious decision several months ago after reading that RPS article about Sexism on the Internet that from that day on I would confront anyone who makes a comment that smacks of bigotry. It may create acrimony but I would rather make the right moral decision than to keep quiet. The good news is I have found these forums have very few instances of obvious bigotry, another factor why I enjoy them Finally another reason for general rudeness on the Internet and this is something that no one has touched on is the Americans indubitable belief in free speech. I have had several debates with people about there insulting comments and there response are generally things like " its just words", "words can't hurt you" and "I believe in free speech and this just my opinion". We know that in South Africa words most definitely can hurt you and certain words are illegal. We believe in free speech but not if it infringes on the dignity of the person. That's what's key to this argument, are your words going to impact the dignity of the person? So people hide behind the tenet of free speech and perpetuate rudeness and bigotry. If you can change this mindset you'll go a long way to resolving the issue Edited July 25, 2013 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 What is the appropriate response to abuse? Scathing wit is best. That and the occasional IP ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 What is the appropriate response to abuse? Scathing wit is best. The problem with scathing wit is that some people just don't get it so sometimes you need to be more direct and unequivocal. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I'd be much more sorry for developer in question if they weren't partially responsible for this situation. Those standards were set over many years of competitive gaming but only now they are shocked that their target audience behaves badly? At least fess up that while even developers on f2p games were trying to somehow police the community you simply refused to do bugger-all. You can't fix the problem if you don't recognize the mistakes you have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bos_hybrid Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 People really need to stop being concerned by what some random person on the internet thinks of them. Think KaineParkers avatar. Helper should of just ignored the trolls instead she and Aaryn did exactly what they wanted. The more 'devs call it out', the more they'll attract trolls. No it's not fair, but that is what happens when you put yourself in the public eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 People really need to stop being concerned by what some random person on the internet thinks of them. Think KaineParkers avatar. Its easy to say that when you aren't the target of bigotry or abuse. "Just ignore it " isn't a viable solution to dealing with most cases of bigotry "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Obviously never been to the Diablo 3 forums. This is normal behaviour everytime patch notes anything is announced. "Remember, remember the fifth of December The patch-day of treason and plot I see no reason, for MS and Cleavin' Cause Tseric wants us to spec Prot." I think there was more to it, I had it saved on my old computers harddrive, wich I don't know if it's dead or not. Taken from the WoW Warrior forums in December 2006 or so. 1 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Its easy to say that when you aren't the target of bigotry or abuse. "Just ignore it " isn't a viable solution to dealing with most cases of bigotry It is, really, they can jaw as long as they want and if you ignore them they get no rise, no hurt feelings in you and if you do it right you can just cease to see them as people. It's more fun to hit back and hard, though (guy teases you for a while, retort by making a joke about his recently dead father, for example ). Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bos_hybrid Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 People really need to stop being concerned by what some random person on the internet thinks of them. Think KaineParkers avatar. Its easy to say that when you aren't the target of bigotry or abuse. "Just ignore it " isn't a viable solution to dealing with most cases of bigotry Actually on the internet it is, you just log off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I think I just resign myself to the fact that my target audience its going to be the lowest common denominator (that fat kid with asperberg drinking fountains of mountain dew) and I shouldn't expect anything intelligent from them.But maybe I'm just getting a leg up in my jadedness. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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