Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[GoranTg]

Hoorah for crafting details!

 

I shall toss my plea at you: Please go nuts with the recipes. I realize that no matter how you do it, there's still technically an actual recipe for each and every individual crafting product, but I'd really like to see things that are somewhat dynamically affected by the specific crafting skills/skill-values you have at hand.

 

What I mean is, maybe the same basic recipe ("Iron Broadsword") can be produced with varying durabilities, and/or varying sharpnesses, etc., based on skill levels and the specific skills/materials used. Or, even some material variance. Maybe an ingredient within a recipe for, say a hilt, is simply "cord," and maybe there are various different types of cord throughout the game, that are all blatantly identified as the same ingredient type.

 

What I hate to see (because it's so overly done) is the entire crafting system being presented, in-game, as little more than a giant spreadsheet of recipes. It doesn't feel like you're really discovering or dynamically affecting anything at all at that point. It feels like you're making ramen noodles in the microwave. "Okay, iron noodles + water + seasoning packet + forge = BROADSWORD! 8D!"

 

Making 50 simple Iron Broadswords that all come out a bit different would be stupendous. That would provide room for subtle customizations and such. *shrug*

 

I just think that's something a LOT of crafting systems could use: a sense of your specific choices mattering, rather than adding pre-existing items to your shopping cart, then clicking the crafting equivalent of "check out."

 

Recipe flexibility. That's what I'm advocating. The EXACT physical properties of the item you're creating should be able to differ, even with all the same (or functionally the same) ingredients.

 

Blarg. I always end up with like 700 more words than intended. -___-

This made me register.  Love the idea; reminds me of Vagrant story.

 

The community seems to be quite divided on this topic. I am sure obsidian can make it work for both sides, though I do not get the impression that crafting is being forced on the player. You do not have to craft if you do not want to. 

 

I think that crafting a weapon better than/equal to a legendary one is not necessarily a bad idea.  Why can my character not become a legend at the forge? It just has to be as challenging as obtaining a legendary weapon the usual way.

[Sarex]

Really disappointed in item durability, I always found that to be tedious/pointless. As for the crafting I'm neither for or against it.

[Tuckey]

@Sensuki

 

Regarding your post on durability and the Sawyer quote

 

I don't mind having some good items in stores; makes sense that some adventurers would trade them in. We could use our money on these items. Durability doesn't sound like fun but it could balance out for non-combat approaches.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Tuckey

[talkingtree]

Also, as for crafting. I think the main issue with crafting is generally that just about anyone can do it. It becomes a forced addition to the player's setup because, well, there's no reason not to do it. If you have the material and taking the skill necessary has little to no negatives to the decision, even poorly thought out optimal play screams to go to your nearest anvil and upgrade that weapon. The only time I've ever really found crafting to be interesting is when applied in more of a roleplay sense, you actually need to specialize into it. You're not a warrior, a mage or a hybrid. You're a craftsman and you make up for your lack of true skill in weapon play purely through quality. You might not be able to swing a sword five times a second, but you do have the capacity to build a flaming ice sword of necromancy that no one else can.

The problem with this train of thought, however, is that it's really only fair in a single character situation. There's absolutely no reason why the guy who can swing a sword five times per second isn't wielding this flaming ice sword of necromancy over the guy who built it but can only wield it with mediocre skill. Which then leads to the problem of everyone getting to craft everything because in the party situation the pure craftsman doesn't balance himself out, he just super-empowers his squad.

Although, I suppose, that could be a point of balance as well. Trading a 4 man team who mainly buys their armor and weaponry or finds them for a 3 manteam who mainly gets their armor and weaponry from their mostly useless-in-combat master craftsman.

It's an odd trade. Still, I think giving everyone the right to empower their weapons despite their own specializations is an ultimately pointless interpretation of crafting in any rpg. (at least, without taking substantial losses or simply having finished their specialization and free to branch into other things) It just adds an unnecessary and tedious element to the game and personally, I dislike the idea of free options in general. Nothing should ever really be a win win situation unless the player manages to force it to be so. It's not even an option at that point, it's just a thing you get.

[rostlinka]

I'm really afraid about this. I like the crafting in the game but I'm scared that it shall ruin the spirit of IE games if it will be like crafting in every modern game. I mean dozens of recipes like this: bring metal + troll teath + some wood = long sword with damage 1% better than other swords. It's too arcade and it suits much better in some hack and slash. I prefer much more some modification of NWN 2 style. You can make every weapon from different quality of materials than you can add some enchantment. But I would prefer very limited power of enchantment you can add. The best weapons should still be the one with names you found. Epic weapons which earnes these names with their past and carrying some story about this name. If there have to be some Epic weapon crafting i prefer the BG2 style. You could find some parts of lost epic weapon and with apropriate skill you can reforge the mighty legendary weapon lost in the past.

[Azure79]

I also am not that excited for item durability. If it must be included, restrict it to non-magical items only. 

 

Crafting in general is something I don't usually bother with, but I understand why people enjoy it. I just hope the best crafted items in the game don't overshadow any unique magical items looted from enemies and dungeons. I really miss the stories behind a lot of the IE magical items and hope to see more of that in PE. 

 

I prefer the BG2 crafting system, where legendary weapons are forged and upgraded by a master smith after the player runs into the unique parts. Forging 100 regular swords so I can forge a sword +1 and so on, is not my idea of a fun time. Though I doubt this will be the crafting system in PE.  I don't like playing packrat, holding onto every crafting item possible in hopes that it is a part for something. 

[LadyCrimson]

Crafting like Diablo3? Skyrim? MMO? I'm not seeing it.

 

From the description, to me it sounds more akin to what was in KOTOR2 or FNV. Not exactly the same I'm sure, but more that sort of style. Then again, I'm not always good at interpreting what is meant in descriptions. Probably why I don't read manuals.

[Jajo]

Great update. Crafting sounds very similar to NWN2:SoZ's system, which was the most usefully done one, that I can think of right now.

 

A couple of questions:

• Will there also be skills that will help with gathering crafting resources?
• Is repair cost / durability repaired a linear function? By-section linear function? Not decided yet?
• How big of a gold sink are the repair costs meant to be? Will an unskilled party be throwing every penny earned for it? Will it limit usage of certain expensive items to special occasions?
• If being able to create an item is a reason for being able to take a good care of it, will being able to expertly use an item also be a reason for being able to take a good care of it (will 'weapon focus' or similar also help with slower degradation, or is this exclusive domain of the repair skill)?
• Will there be any nook balancing updates in the future?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jajo

[Kronos]

I don't post a lot, but had to remember my password and login to add my sentiments as I feel strongly about this. This was my initial thought.

 

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO.....

 

That is not the spirit of the infinity engine games which were built around hard to obtain loot. I remember BG1 where I was walking around for ages with a crappy 2 handed sword which broke (damned iron shortage) and needed replacing on occasion. My glee at finding a 2H sword +1 a good deal into the game was palpable (I recall only 3 enchanted 2H swords, one of which was cursed - that is rarity). I want that same feeling of being drip fed the good loot  and fear that this type of crafting with make special items a lot less special and give access to good loot to easily.

 

Please don't deviate too far from the BG2 & TOB crafting model, that was at least interesting as you were actually excited to find crafting recipes especially with regards to making equipment. Cluttered inventory and shopping for ingredients is uber grindy and makes finding rare and unique loot less rewarding as you can simply build the stuff yourself. Don't mind the master dwarven blacksmith who smithed for 200 years before he created his singular masterpiece infused with godly magic by chance as it was used in combat against a demon, I'll just pump some skill points into one of my gang and he can do the same despite the fact it's only the fourth time he's worked at a forge; but that's okay because a book showed him how to do it!

 

C'mon, please don't go down that road.

 

There's my 2 cents.

[Walsingham]

I think it's pretty clear that there's a good portion of gamers who freaking LOVE crafting. So demanding it's not in there is moot. If you don't want crafting to influence your particular game experience don't take the skill.

 

My main concern was that it sounded a bit pedestrian. I'd like to see a crafting experience based around a system which allows for experimentation and improvisation. It should also be different on each play through.

 

My only sensible thought on how to do this would be to have each visible crafting material possess a hidden array of values. For the sake of argument: 'spleenium', 'kavorkium', 'salad', and 'my left foot'. Your basic grey rock might contain two spleeniums on one play through, three on another. Effects recipes depend on the precise combinations of the four elements. It's up to players to experiment and get them right.

 

For the sake of cowards it would be worth having some visible items possess stable values of the four elements.

 

For the sake of True Englishmen, some combinations of elements would explode unpredictably.

[DaWu]

I really dont like the whole idea of items getting damaged  

[Malekith]

I think it's pretty clear that there's a good portion of gamers who freaking LOVE crafting. So demanding it's not in there is moot. If you don't want crafting to influence your particular game experience don't take the skill.

 

My main concern was that it sounded a bit pedestrian. I'd like to see a crafting experience based around a system which allows for experimentation and improvisation. It should also be different on each play through.

 

My only sensible thought on how to do this would be to have each visible crafting material possess a hidden array of values. For the sake of argument: 'spleenium', 'kavorkium', 'salad', and 'my left foot'. Your basic grey rock might contain two spleeniums on one play through, three on another. Effects recipes depend on the precise combinations of the four elements. It's up to players to experiment and get them right.

 

For the sake of cowards it would be worth having some visible items possess stable values of the four elements.

 

For the sake of True Englishmen, some combinations of elements would explode unpredictably.

That's why item durability is a bad idea. It prevents players playing the game like IE games completely ignoring crafting. Even if you can make the uber+124 Hammer of Doom with crafting, i would still ignore it. But with item durability, i cannot. Or are you propose to run around with damaged weapons because i couldn't repair my items? Or swap weapons all the time.

It defeats the purpose to having unique weapons with handwritten histories. I still remember most of the items in BG2, their location and their histories. In most (all) games after 2003, i didn't bothered with items and at some point didn't bothered to change weapons,even if i found a better one. If the value of the weapon is only in the numbers, with no lore relevence and a special history, i just can't bother. This isn't Diablo.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Malekith

[kgambit]

Crafting like Diablo3? Skyrim? MMO? I'm not seeing it.

 

From the description, to me it sounds more akin to what was in KOTOR2 or FNV. Not exactly the same I'm sure, but more that sort of style. Then again, I'm not always good at interpreting what is meant in descriptions. Probably why I don't read manuals.

 

My first impression was that this is a modified version of the NWN2 crafting system with the addition of food and beverage "cooking recipes".    It might be simpler but without the further knowledge of the types of skills, talent or abilities that some recipes might require it's hard to say.    We might simply end up seeing reworked versions of the Craft Wands or Create Magical Arms or Armor feats. 

 

I'm curious if there will be a limit on the number of enchantments that can be placed on items.  (Frankly I hope there are limits.)    I wonder if "harvested souls" will somehow work their way into the PE crafting system as crafting ingredients (NWN2 "essences" anyone?).   

[Hmm-Hmm.]

I am really questioning the decision to add durability to Eternity. What, pray tell, does it add to the gameplay? Other than a (generally tedious) way to make you spend more time and in-game resources on something which isn't actually any fun. This isn't a competitive game. This isn't a game which is all about gear and treasure.

 

I truly see no need to implement durability. No upsides, only downsides. But I am willing to listen to what the developers think.

[Kaldurenik]

Well lets start with the crafting:

My core problem with this is the "balance" that is very hard to get. There are only a few games where i have enjoyed crafting and felt that it was a good (basic) system. When you have a "skill" where you put points you will either end up with a skill that everyone have to take or you dont put any points into it at all. Now if there are "super rare hard to get legendary weapons"(that you find parts of) that you need the skill to be able to craft then its fine. But overall if its just a "grind" then it wont end being a very good system. Ofc this is just my opinion.

 

Durability tend to either just be a money sink or annoying. Its very very rare to find a good durability system now days. Do i care if there is a durability system? Yes and no... If its there to just be a money sink or to make crafting "worth" it then it might as well be removed in my opinion. 

[TrashMan]

Also not a big fan of crafting, as it tends to create super-adventurers that outdo master smiths who spent their whole lives honing their skills.

 

As long as things we can craft are rather basic....

[RabidRatMonkey]

Crafting sounds pretty NWN2-ish, only without statchels, which is good. The tricky part will be finding the balance between cool craftable items and cool lootable ones. 

Durability, if implemented right, could be a cool strategic factor when planning to go on a mission (gosh, I hope there is an avil in the Endless Paths). I think it is a good decision that gear can't be destroyed, only damaged.

[John Forseti]

 

That's why item durability is a bad idea. It prevents players playing the game like IE games completely ignoring crafting. Even if you can make the uber+124 Hammer of Doom with crafting, i would still ignore it. But with item durability, i cannot. Or are you propose to run around with damaged weapons because i couldn't repair my items? Or swap weapons all the time.

 

Or you could go and pay a blacksmith/armor/whatever to repair them, you aren't required to do it yourself.

[mercy]

"Items can never become worse than “damaged”. They will not break or become more damaged. They just stay damaged until you have them fixed."

 

BOOO!   Newsflash, Mr. Tim Cain, Senior Programmer and Designer, swords DO BREAK!

 

Its understandable if you deemed not worth loosing man-hours properly adding breaking weapons so you can finish PE in time.

 

There are special medieval sword breaking weapons, heavy iron maces and heavy iron flails etc.. shields and plate armor also can break swords due to inept sword-strikes  as you might be very well avare of.

 

If you decided that you do not wish to bother with managing BROKEN_WEAPON_STATE in your code from a pure programmers standpoint  and you do not wish to bother to make DROPPED_BROKEN_WEAPON items disappear, you are destroying fun realism that made Baldurs Gate so great. Simple weapons do break, should break, because that means the character hit too hard - maybe it was a critical hit, then the cracks in the cheap sword spread too far. 

 

Or the character is a beginner fighter, and breaks regular swords often, which is fun to observe!

 

Also the following is great fun:

1. start a physically strong character with no weapons, just rags on his/her body.

2. Then try to fight bare-handed - yes its hard -

3. Anything you can get from the enemy you can use: a leather armor maybe and a weak sword

4. Then watch that sword become damaged then break in the middle of battle.

5. Watch the weak armor become damaged and then unusable / broken / torn / too much holes, etc..

6. Experience the Ladder of Ascension process until my character has a somewhat better equipment and take on stronger enemies with confidence.

 

Thank You for reading!

 

 

Edited July 3, 2013 by mercy

[Walsingham]

Um... as others have already said, thi sisn't a simulation it's a fantasy game.

 

I can understand repair and maintenance. I polish my shoes. But that doesn't mean I dream of doing so in my fantasy other worlds.

 

EDIT:

 

On further consideration I can see how it can help with immersion. but I would suggest ading it as a scripted event with certain areas like a swamp or burning house or sandstorm or what have you.

 

In this way the players would be reminded of the fragility of their uber kit, and samsara in general. Without it getting bloody annoying.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Walsingham

[keysersoze]

Item Durability has been an annoying mechanic in every single player game I've experienced.

And it can make you view your chosen items in a negative way due to bad timing (FFS - NOW my "sword of slaughter +6" needs to be repaired - in the middle of this dungeon - piece of ****).

 

You should not make the game worse as a whole just to buff up the "Crafting Skill" to make to comparable to other skills. 

[smudboy]

Making gear? Cool.

 

Item degredation? Sucks. Play Fire Emblem and see how ridiculous your legendary metal weapons disappear after 30x swings.

 

Try this:

 

Sharpening

Similar to a wand having limited charges, this merely boosts the effectiveness (stats) of a weapon.  Each use uses up a charge, until it goes into a normal state.  Normal states (of a sharp weapon) can further degrade into dull.  So:

1. Dull (-boost) (0 charges)

2. Normal (300 charges)

3. Honed (+boost) (# of charges, based on blacksmith, items used, metal of sharp weapon, etc.)

 

Keep using your same bladed weapon over and over on foes and opening up chests, and you get a club.

 

This gives us reason to see a blacksmith whenever we're in town. The above relates to a bladed weapon.  Weapons like metal hammers wouldn't really need to be maintained, because they're hammers.

 

For more complex weapon items, let's say crossbows, they have working parts and must be maintained, and can certainly be broken.

Maintenance

1. Broken (0 charges/can't be used)

2. Faulty (-boost) (150 charges)

3. Normal (300 charges)

4. Well Maintained (# of charges, craftsmith, items used, etc.)

5. Peak (+boost) (ditto)

n. Ethereal (can't degrade)

n. Special (can't degreade -- whatever lore reason the writers come up with)

 

Non-weapon equipment:

1. Broken

2. Dented/deformed (depending if metal or non-metal)

3. Normal

4. Well Maintained.

 

Another complimentary, simple idea is Tempering.  Tempering can increase the number of charges of Maintenance or Sharpening on an object.  So an Iron Sword can be tempered in Steel, but still be an Iron Sword, just now have a greater pool of (Normal) charges. It might also offer some resistances to being broken, or certain effectiveness against various weapons/defences.

 

If you really want to get fancy, whereas weapons do in fact break, that would involve a series of spells, counter-weapons, and blunt-force weapons that are designed to shatter weapons and armor, like hammers.

 

And if you want to get really fancy:

http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/armorypages/sword-breaker.htm

[Malekith]

 

 

That's why item durability is a bad idea. It prevents players playing the game like IE games completely ignoring crafting. Even if you can make the uber+124 Hammer of Doom with crafting, i would still ignore it. But with item durability, i cannot. Or are you propose to run around with damaged weapons because i couldn't repair my items? Or swap weapons all the time.

 

Or you could go and pay a blacksmith/armor/whatever to repair them, you aren't required to do it yourself.

 

Yep. And that is just a chore. Not a game breaking one, but a chore still. What fun does it add? As weapons don't break completely, it doesn't even add strategic considerations. It sounds very close to what Arcanum had, it it was terrible there as well.

[John Forseti]

 

 

 

That's why item durability is a bad idea. It prevents players playing the game like IE games completely ignoring crafting. Even if you can make the uber+124 Hammer of Doom with crafting, i would still ignore it. But with item durability, i cannot. Or are you propose to run around with damaged weapons because i couldn't repair my items? Or swap weapons all the time.

 

Or you could go and pay a blacksmith/armor/whatever to repair them, you aren't required to do it yourself.

 

Yep. And that is just a chore. Not a game breaking one, but a chore still. What fun does it add? As weapons don't break completely, it doesn't even add strategic considerations. It sounds very close to what Arcanum had, it it was terrible there as well.

 

 

How is keeping your weapons in top-shape any different to keeping sufficient healing-items, resting to restore spell/talent uses or any other "fun-destroying chore"?

[Zed]

I don't really like the sound of the crafting system. It does sound like the crafting in an mmo.

 

I thought BG2 did it perfectly.

 

I also don't like durability penalties. It's just bothersome.

 

Oh well.