Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[Semper]

 

[...]the silliness of needing recipes to convert mundane ingredients into something extraordinary. Like, there are almond leaves everywhere, but I need a bloody recipe before I can brew a cup of tea[...]

 

 

first we don't know if there will be such mundane recipes. second if you gain those recipes automatically after investing a few points into cooking skills it's like knowing them from the start.

 

crafting will stand and fall with balance. the recipes for items on par with legendary loot should be very sparse and difficult to obtain. the majority of crafted items should be weaker than legendary gear, but still viable and more useful than the basic stuff. to all the ones yelling for the bg2 crafting quests: they will be in! at least that's what was communicated while the project was kickstarted.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Semper

[Cultist]

Here we go

 

It's both for the economy and to make Crafting a skill that has value on more than one party member. Typically, crafting-related skills can/should only be taken on one party member because the rules don't reward taking it on more than one. If you do, those points are essentially wasted. A durability system allows us to use individual Crafting skills to scale individual degradation rates. And yes, repair does become an economy sink because "static" items have a consumable aspect to them. A lot of players have a preference for finding, rather than buying, rare/unique items in the world (e.g. many people responded negatively to unique items in IWD2's stores), which can result in a lot of money accumulation in the late game. The stronghold will be a good money sink, but a lot of people may choose to not do much with the stronghold, so there's no guarantee it will be a sink.

[Shadenuat]

Will it be as fun as Arcanum, Tim?

Please make it as fun as in Arcanum.

 

I will send you a chocolate bar from Russia then with cool picture on it.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Shadenuat

[Gizmo]

All sounds pretty straightforward, but none the worse for it. I just want to raise one point:

 

To begin crafting, you must find an appropriate crafting location.

 

I've always found it really bizarre and silly in games that you can just wander up to some blacksmith's forge, elbow him out the way, and start working. I'd really appreciate it if you actually had to gain the right to use these locations from their owners (options could be owning one yourself in player housing, paying to rent the use, included with board at inns, or being allowed access from a friend, for a few examples).

Or... another option could be that the crafter works better with better tools.  A crafter with full access to a magnificent workshop faring far better at their work than had they done it on some hamlet's back-yard anvil.  And/but the PC might be allowed to carry a small [8 pound?] anvil for in the field emergency crafting ~~But that would only make sense if items degraded beyond damaged (which I wish they would).

 

Here is an idea:  What if items that made it to 'damaged' (or severely damaged), became vulnerable to breakage in heated combat with a better blade or mace; your heroes' damaged longsword snaps parrying the ogre's war-mace... Possible (or I should say probable, mostly because it was in such bad condition).  A hero could stop [even mid-spelunking] and repair his equipment (with light-duty tools) to repair it enough to not likely break before they get back to town.

 

**Speaking of breakage and my wanting items to potentially break... Arx Fatalis had [iMO] a grand repair and crafting system, that allowed for casting ore into ingots, and ingots into swords; and/or working blanks into blades on the forges, to just simple repair work.  One thing though... In Arx Fatalis, the skill of the PC affected the quality of the repair; in many cases the PC could improve the item's condition, but incompetence would ultimately damage the item's maximum condition ~meaning that repeated repair work on the same item would render it [overworked] junk over time; unless they were master craftmen; [like the blacksmith was].

 

I like the idea that a PC's crafted magic weapon could run the risk of breaking if greatly neglected.  I do recall times in Baldur's Gate 2 when my PC might have a weapon break, and them have to switch out for anything at hand ~even if they were unfamiliar with it. Like a grandmaster swordsman suddenly without a blade, and scrounges a mace; or lesser quality sword until they can get a new sword. 

 

Another aspect was that in BG2, there were creatures that could not be harmed by swords (or even magic weapons)... this would cause a great sword fighter to have to resort to a conventional mace to put dent them. Now imagine they are in the thick of it an their only non-magical mace breaks.

Such a shift in tactics could never happen if the players were assured they would never lose any equipment.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Gizmo

[Sacred_Path]

first we don't know if there will be such mundane recipes. second if you gane those recipes automatically after investing a few points into cooking skills it's like knowing them from the start.

Of course it's possible there's only one crafting skill and basically all "food" recipes are at the very low tiers... which would make sense.

[curryinahurry]

^ It might be, as Semper is implying, the opposite of recipes being a basic stock that is needed for camping purposes.  Generic food and drinks might be a given, and that the recipes yield special benefits; like an herbal soup that grants protection from poison for a day.

Edited July 3, 2013 by curryinahurry

[Sensuki]

The Item Degradation/Crafting relation to durability mechanics are going to change the Crafting archetype from the Wizard to the Melee classes.

 

If the party is given more skill points than they *need* to have pretty good specialization in all skills (this may be impossible), then it's going to be a no brainer to dump any extra skill points into Crafting for any martial character to reduce the rate of equipment becoming damaged / cost to repair items.

 

I'm not against Item Durability, but if it's not designed properly it has the potential to be annoying.

[Labadal]

I just hope that it is better implemented than it was in Arcanum.

[Sacred_Path]

^ It might be, as Semper is implying, the opposite of recipes being a basic stock that is needed for camping purposes.

it certainly is (not needed for camping purposes), JES has said that there will be no resting ressources.

[kenup]

Personally, I never cared about crafting. As long as crafting is not necessary though, I'm fine with it.

 

IMHO it would be better if alchemy was separated from "smithy" crafting, though.

 

But, guys, durability? Seriously?   This isn't a survival game(as far as we know at least). It's just going to be a tedious and boring time and money sink after a while/instantly.

Edited July 3, 2013 by kenup

[tur1n]

What is the purpose of the durability stat in a single-player RPG?

 

I was wondering the same thing and came up with the following answer: It could serve to balance out combat and non combat approaches. Combat will most likely yield loot, but since you will have to spend it on repairs, you won't necassarily be better off then if you had just snuck past the encounter.

[Rubarack]

Oh, and the image is great. I'm guessing it is a modified movie poster, but I'm not sure what movie it is. Anyone knows this, maybe?

 

The Craft, look closely near the top of the image and there's a subtle clue...

 

I'm not a fan of this system as it stands, I don't like crafting because it feels like busywork that takes me out of the core experience and I don't like item degradation  because it feels like busywork that takes me out of the core experience.

 

I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place here. In addition item degradation lends itself to degenerate gameplay where you never end up using that +10 sword of awesomeness because it's more cost efficient to use that rusty dagger.

 

It sort of feels like "We've developed this crafting system we're happy with. Now I'm going to beat you with this stick, if you use it I will beat you less often and less vigorously. How's that for a deal!"

[mstark]

First update to leave me disappointed. There's been a lot of discussion regarding what 'crafting' system, if any, would be good to see in PE, and MMO/Diablo3 style crafting CERTAINLY was not one of them.

 

I'd much prefer to see IE style crafting (mainly BG2), where it's limited to certain legendary items, and you need the help of a master blacksmith to put the pieces together. This was fine because I could find for example the hilt and pommel jewel of the equalizer, and that would be exciting,something to look forward to, as opposed to finding 5 pieces of iron and knowing I can make my 3rd sword once in get back to town...

 

Also, having a skill that does nothing but reduce the cost of something (crafting/durability in this case), has never added to the gaming experience of any single player game, unless it had an amazingly complex bartering system. Durability is a great concept for adding an abstract form of realism to the game, but I have never played a game where it did something good (and where subsequent games didn't do away with it).

 

I'd write a longer reply, citing examples and linking to old discussions here on the forum, but I'm on my phone and going to work

[Sageoflatnam]

I also like the Idea with the crafting. I hope the Things to craft are as good as the things to find in the game. But the recipes are no good Idea....thats too much trouble with that. At first finding them, then using them...oh I have not the right things to use them.....thats boring. Please cancel the recipes...no one needs that

[Waswat]

Ugh. Crafting... "Crafting". One of the mistakes a lot of developers make is to add crafting to the game and then simplify it to something like "add fire damage to your sword".

Nevermind the foodcrafting: "Drink milk to gain a mana buff" and then "drink goat milk to gain a slightly bigger mana buff".

 

Usually crafting is the most boring part of the game and sometimes even mandatory, depending on the game. I sincerely hope that the developers do it correctly and don't add any mundane stuff like the examples above to the game. Considering however how simplified the durability mechanics seem, I am afraid the whole crafting thing will turn out to be as bad as it usually is.

 

Which brings me to another point, one which Bhazor mentioned as well: Why add durability mechanics in a single player game? Normally it is a gold sink in MMO's so that the economy does not inflate (since there are an inifite amount of mobs they can farm on and gold sinks from trading via an auction house are not enough). In a single player game it should not even matter and becomes even a chore to keep going back to town and repair the weapons. 

 

A 'quest' crafting system where you have to look for parts of the artifact with a story involved in it would be a much better experience since devs can then give the item some actual personality.

And if you don't want to involve writers in a questline for an item, then something as the crafting in dark souls might be interesting as well, where you can forge a weapon from the soul of your enemy (for example the fiery greatsword from the soul of quelaag, a lavaspitting arachne; or the moonlight greatsword which can slice things from afar, made of the soul of a giant moonlight butterfly)

Yeah, this is basically the update I am the least excited about. Slightly annoyed even. 

Edited July 3, 2013 by Waswat

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm one of those that never cared about crafting in IE games or NWN games. Like someone said, it was a lot of junk that I had to sift though to find the things I was looking for. However, in other games I've appreciated some aspects of crafting. Perhaps the most important aspect is the possibility of vanity items. I played on a persistent NWN1 world, and there I merely crafted in order to make nice-looking items, and it was pretty fun, actually. Another important aspect is that I would love to see crafting that created items with slightly varied stats, as an incentive to do it all. I'll prolly be roasted for this: But I actually liked Diablo 3's endless variation to items crafted - but I hated it for being a game where everything was about the gear. What I am talking about here are subtle differences that are not, or at least very rarely, affecting the gameplay in any major way. Furthermore, never ever make the crafted stuff better than what I can find while I play through the game - it should be on equal footing. The greatest flaw of MotB was that elemental-crafted weapons got absurdly powerful, for instance. 

 

As for item degradation, I usually detest it. It's such a chore. And no need to even mention Diablo 3. Here, I think Tim is walking on really thin ice, indeed. Will this even be remotely fun? Perhaps it will, but for now I remain sceptical.

[Sacred_Path]

In addition item degradation lends itself to degenerate gameplay where you never end up using that +10 sword of awesomeness because it's more cost efficient to use that rusty dagger.

Chances are that sword +10 will be more powerful even when it's blunted than a shiny dagger. Although I concede this may be true for two weapons where one is only marginally more powerful... but then you could simply save the more expensive one for when you need it the most.

 

edit: btw guys... no design by comittee plz. I like your vision so far and I hope you stick with it.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[Mico Selva]

 

Oh, and the image is great. I'm guessing it is a modified movie poster, but I'm not sure what movie it is. Anyone knows this, maybe?

 

The Craft, look closely near the top of the image and there's a subtle clue...

Haha, and there I thought the title was edited too. :D

[Sabotin]

Huh? Item durability? Seems simple, a point was made to make it look non-tedious, reminds me a bit of Arcanum... What's the point of it, though, I mean it's.. no... oh no no no, please don't... don't do it... NOOOOOoooo!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Crafting I'll most likely ignore as in most games, it's not really my cup of tea. Unless it's the only way to get something I deem as invaluable or is very very simplified and not tedious at all.

 

Not requiring dozens of trips to gather the materials would be a good start. I mean if I enter a forge I'd expect it to be stocked with everything needed even if I have to buy what I'm missing from the owner at a markup. I much prefer to hunt unique and hidden crafting components.

 

One other thing that'd be nice, if it was avoided - having to have a character specialized in crafting at the expense of everything else. For example if you wanted to craft in NWN2 it was probably common practice to have a magic oriented companion learn all the crafting related feats and skills and have them sit in the camp forever. That way you didn't have to "waste" any combat effectiveness of your main party.

[Maf]

Always ask yourself the following question: Is this fun?

If the answer is clearly YES, go for it!

Note: Sometimes doing a chore is ok, if the result is worth it!

 

I liked the inclusion of "crafting" inside storylines myself, like (part of) Gothic for example:

You had to pick up a job and do chores because you needed favors and money, simple enough system for me!

I also liked the fact that I actually saw the guy working the steel which made it feel more "real".

This effect will probably be less in PE due to the distance of the camera if you did decide to implement something like that.

For some this probably appeared as a chore and nuisance, but if ALL you want is action... why play an RPG?

 

I'm not sure if I've EVER seen a game where I thought crafting was executed well, but perhaps you can see this as a challenge

You should definately do something fun with food if you include it!

Like the game forcing you to cook for a lord or something and your cooking skill will be related to the outcome (jail and hanging not excluded as possible options ).

Go nuts!

[Tuckey]

@Sabotin  The arcanum ui certainly didn't help the crafting cause. Watching Chris Avellone try to figure out how to use the map while his inventory was cluttered with pointless stuff was entertaining! Then his main character lost there clothes in the starting area due to durability and I think we know where this goes. Poor Chris was mega frustrated by the wolves and losing his armour certainly didn't help lol.

[Waswat]

What irks me as well is that taking crafting is encouraged by having item degradation in the game.

 

Making a system where players who don't really want to get the crafting skill for the crafting get penalized more than the players that already like crafting and are taking that skill.

[talkingtree]

I don't understand what the point of durability is in this setup other than being an extra nuisance that will vaguely stray at the back of your mind every time you enter a shop and check your items for comparison. Also, I guess, being an gold-specific trashcan. It doesn't seem to have any actual affect on gameplay (unless you stay out of towns for an exceptionally long period of time?) in this format and the gold/crafting balancing could probably be better solved through other, less 'fun'-detrimental means.

[centurionofprix]

 

For example, you might have a sword with high accuracy and a Flaming Sword recipe that adds fire damage to any sword.

 

PLEASE DON'T trivialize the existing items/lore by allowing the player's crafting efforts to improve upon or surpass the best items to be found in the game, esp. if these items have legendary origins. Having a generic adventurer improve an eldritch creation from the beginning of time by slapping some random enchantment of his choice on it just ruins the weight of its discovery and its role in the setting unless this is to restore the weapon to its former glory.

 

If there was a specific thing one had to do, a ritual sacrifice of souls or combination of crafting materials to awaken such a weapon to its full strength after aeons of neglect leaking out its power or forgetting its hunger in the corner of some crypt without a living soul about, that would be neat.

Edited July 3, 2013 by centurionofprix

[Sensuki]

Poll here on Item Durability as there seems to be a fair amount of widespread disdain for it's inclusion

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64050-item-durability/