Update #56: Paladins and Wild Orlans

[J. Trudel]

Now i wish you guys made a tabletop PnP version of Project Eternity, every update get me more excited for this game.

 

I would also like to see a pen & paper Project Eternity. However it all depend on how the rules of the gameplay are handled. PnP games tend to have a lot less calculations than a crpg in their design. I hope P:E designers made the rules of the game similar to a PnP, this was also a part of the infinity engine charm. Rules you can calculate yourself. 

[J.E. Sawyer]

I love the look of the wild Orlans, being just how I imagined them, but I'm disappointed that the Hearth Orlans seem to have been more humanised and now are looking a bit like 'short hairy elf'. The renders in this update don't capture what grabbed me about that original detective art, alas.

 

Because the renders are from untextured Zbrush models, you can't see the mottled skin patterns that hearth orlans have.  This is also why some people are interpreting the wild orlans' body/facial hair as "wrinkles".  The "wrinkles" are actually their hair.

[Lephys]

I would assume that's possible, but such a Paladin would never be as effective as a Fighter with the same role.

My worry isn't that they won't be the perfect equals of Fighters or anything of that nature, but rather that there was really no mention of anything that didn't pretty much SOLELY help entities other than the Paladin, herself. I mean, I suppose it's possible that things like "Shake It Off" could be self-targeted. But, I'm worried that if 80% of the Paladin's abilities are simply "improve things about other people in a strategic fashion," then that sort of dictates the tactics of the entire party that are viable when a Paladin is present.

 

Got a Rogue who needs to skirt the battlefield and strike at people from opportune angles? Well, obviously he's not going to hug the Paladin's proximity, then, so that's -1 potential person's worth of effectiveness for your Paladin's party-boosting benefits. Got a Ranger who's an awesome archer and needs to stay far away and work his own angles as well? There's another person that isn't really Paladin-friendly. Got a Wizard? There's probably another who isn't going to stand toe-to-toe with the Paladin Posse for some fervor boosts.

 

I'm not suggesting there isn't any value to the Paladin outside of how many other characters you can "buff" via proximity. But, if there is, then we haven't really heard about it thus far. So, I'm mildly concerned about that unknown, until it becomes a known.

 

I'm totally cool with a Paladin with a nearby task force always being more effective, overall, than a sole Paladin with no one else around (no matter what build route you take), but I still think no class should be so restricted to the buff-beacon role that they're all but useless when no one else is around. "Oh no, this big troll tends to knock everyone about quite often, scattering the party. Better sit this one out, Paladin, since even the Wizard's better than you at single combat."

 

That's all.

 

Also, I'm still very curious about the "flinch mechanics," as I'll call them, because I think that could be a very good basis for Barbarians, even, if not Paladins. Without even tying it into a class mechanic, I'm still curious as to how that'll work in general. (Flinch mechanics being the effects of physical hits/effects -- like taking a crossbow bolt to the shoulder or being lit on fire -- on the on-going flow of actions by the target. Delayed attacks, falling to a knee for a moment, impaired movement, disarms, knockdowns, defense detriments, etc.)

[Iron_JG]

I doubt we need to be worried about paladins not being effective on their own, that seems like a simple balance issue that devs wouldn't lose sight of. However, I think the trade off for being able to amp up other party members is that they won't be quite as effective one-on-one as a fighter, which traditionally puts everything into direct combat prowess. But I think a paladin focused on improving their personal fighting abilities should get very close to similar fighters. I also think they should be more effective against certain enemies, a la D&D. Paladins should be especially devastating against direct enemies of their order or ideals. In PE terms, that might equate to a "favored enemy" system, since a paladin isn't alignment based. But it would make sense that paladins naturally hit 110 percent when matched against their enemies, given the intensity and focus of their souls.

 

Question for devs: How will players be forced to roleplay this "devotion to an ideal" bent for paladins sans alignments and alignment based checks? It diminishes paladins if they can roleplay however they want. I think there should be the risk of paladins losing their abilities for grossing violating their professed codes of conduct.

[J.E. Sawyer]

All Zealous auras apply to paladins as well as the people around them.  That said, scattering the party is playing against the benefits of the paladin just as having a barbarian solo a singular powerful enemy is playing against the barbarian's benefits (specifically, Carnage AoE melee damage) and having a wizard try to dump low-damage AoEs on one or two targets is playing against the wizard's benefits.

 

Positioning is often an important element of IE combat and we believe it should be in PE as well.  Fighters works well as islands.  You can plant them in the middle of a hallway (even a wide one) and they can lock down melee combatants running through the area.  They work less well (or rather, provide less benefit) in immediate proximity to their allies because they can't force anyone to engage them over someone else.  They also have trouble when enemies are primarily ranged-based and spread out.

 

Paladins do not work well as islands.  They work well with one or more allies around them.  They don't have to be holding hands, but they can't be on opposite sites of a battlefield.  Yes, a wizard, ranger, and rogue in the party could spread far out from the paladin (I don't really think most of them need to), but in many cases, a full party will likely have two more melee-oriented characters in the party (most IE parties have 2 or 3).  A paladin standing 10' in front of a ranger and wizard can provide the same Zealous Barrage benefits to shooters and casters that he or she would if he or she ran up alongside a monk and a barbarian.  Even if a ranger or wizard are on the other side of the battlefield, if they are the closest ally attacking the paladin's current target, they'll gain the benefit of Coordinated Attacks.

 

Paladin Talents will unlock more offensive capabilities for them, but the bog-standard paladins won't hit like wet noodles just because they don't have Abilities specifically dedicated to smashing in faces.  It makes sense that in a tabletop game like D&D, a "buff beacon" character should be avoided because the player experience can be boring.  That's why 4E buff abilities are often minor actions or they are side effects of attacks (e.g. Healing Strike).  In a party-based CRPG where the player is controlling up to six characters, every class doesn't need to be a self-contained murder machine with the same number of active use (or even offensive) abilities.

[Odglok]

Just dropping my comments in after reading the OP.

 

While I don't see myself playing as either type of orlan, I really like the direction you're going the wilder subrace. I was very critical of the first orlan concept art revealed, but now I can see them as a people to be taken seriously.

 

I may be in a very small minority on this feeling, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I had been just a little fearful that orlans might become too "furry" for my taste. It was a subconscious apprehension until I read "hirsute" in the OP, which I immediately assocated with "fursuit", and it hit me. But the renders defintely evoke more wildman notion than anthromorph, and I personally like that much better.

 

I'm very curious to know how paladins will function in the absence of alignment. I would think each paladin has a particular diety or cause that drives them, yet the possibilities seem too numerous for the team to create an extensive list for players to choose from at character creation. And I would like to think that paladins will have abilities specific to their diety or cause, so I'm not sure how this would be accomplished. I hope you're not planning on giving all paladins access to the same selection of abilities, since it would mean that playing a traditional, Lawful Good paladin would be no different than playing a Chaotic Evil death knight (at least, not in combat).

Edited June 20, 2013 by Odglok

[Gumbercules]

Something just occurred to me: does Inspiring Triumph count assists, or does the paladin have to be the one actually delivering the killing blow? I'm not sure that last-hitting has a place outside of esports. If the paladin is engaging that particular enemy when they are killed, it should count IMHO or else things might get too fiddly and meta-gamey.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Last-hitting is also used in 4E for some abilities.  Inspiring Triumph provides a passive bonus and is unlikely to be something you hang your hat on.  There's no need to micro just for that benefit.

[Epsilon]

Unfortunately my first post here will be one of complaining, but it's something that I find deeply troubling; the ears of the wild orlans.

They look too much like so many elves from so many popular mmo's, which get their inspiration from the artstyle portrayed in popular shonen anime's, and thats not what I'd like to be a stablehold in a western made rpg, that harkens back to the 'golden years' of Black Isle.

I'm glad I pledged to the game and will proudly wear the patch on my jacket when I get it, and haven't found reason to complain. Until now.

[Elerond]

To me they look more fennec fox ears than manga/anime elf ears. Especially when you think them with fur textures.

[Epsilon]

To me they look more fennec fox ears than manga/anime elf ears. Especially when you think them with fur textures.

Maybe if they curved inwards and were 2 cm shorter, but they're not and they don't, they hang and curve outwards. Like so many elves in so many korean mmo's http://www.tentaclearmada.com/images/figures/lineage_elf/elf-01.jpg

[greenmonster]

I like the orlans.The wild ones remind me of the Green man, which makes me thirsty.

 

http://www.greenmanbrewery.com/

 

[Nixl]

Thanks for the last two posts Mr. Sawyer (the posts in this one and the language thread).  Both were very promising.  I definitely appreciate the amount of thought you are putting into this world. 

 

Don't have time to post my thoughts on Paladin's just yet, but I think it is an interesting step.

 

I definitely can't wait for cipher and wizard. 

[Eiphel]

 

I love the look of the wild Orlans, being just how I imagined them, but I'm disappointed that the Hearth Orlans seem to have been more humanised and now are looking a bit like 'short hairy elf'. The renders in this update don't capture what grabbed me about that original detective art, alas.

 

Because the renders are from untextured Zbrush models, you can't see the mottled skin patterns that hearth orlans have.  This is also why some people are interpreting the wild orlans' body/facial hair as "wrinkles".  The "wrinkles" are actually their hair.

 

That's reassuring! At the moment hearth Orlans are the race that most intrigue me.

[Karkarov]

I like everything I saw and read.  I especially think the wild orlan design is very well done, I like the direction so much I am considering having one in the party in fact.  The "small race with furry parts" normally doesn't rank high on my priority list for party members.

 

Paladins are about what I expected, maybe slightly more defensive/buff minded than I expected but it is still a good direction for the class.

[TrashMan]

 

 

Effective in what way?

Both are front-line melee warriors, and can be built in different ways.

 

A paladin that sacrifices his boosting-powers for offense/defense should match a fighter IMHO. Altough it's not a simple balance, since so many factors some in.

 

 

But aren't you simply playing a fighter then? If you don't use the abilities that make the paladin what he is, then you just want a fighter that is called "paladin".

 

Nope.

Because both are fighters essentially, but fight differently.

 

Would a offensive paladin build be similar to a fighter? Yes. Is that bad? No.

 

I detest the "One True Build" approach. If one build is so superior, then why give a choice to begin with?

[Monte Carlo]

Could you make a ranged paladin that stands back a bit, generating auras and buffs, while plinking away with a crossbow?

 

I think making classes that you can tinker / theorycraft is good, even work against the grain for fun. Like the melee demonhunter I saw in D3 that kicked ass.

[Sensuki]

Could you make a ranged paladin that stands back a bit, generating auras and buffs, while plinking away with a crossbow?

It seems that you can, and that would even be a good idea if you had a primarily ranged party, because then the ranged characters would be getting the bonuses as long as they were in range of the auras etc.

[Somna]

 

 

Effective in what way?

Both are front-line melee warriors, and can be built in different ways.

 

A paladin that sacrifices his boosting-powers for offense/defense should match a fighter IMHO. Altough it's not a simple balance, since so many factors some in.

 

But aren't you simply playing a fighter then? If you don't use the abilities that make the paladin what he is, then you just want a fighter that is called "paladin".

 

 

Nope.

Because both are fighters essentially, but fight differently.

 

Would a offensive paladin build be similar to a fighter? Yes. Is that bad? No.

 

I detest the "One True Build" approach. If one build is so superior, then why give a choice to begin with?

 

I don't think assuming Paladin is a different flavored Fighter here is a good idea. The Project Eternity Paladin's similarity to the Marshal is so much that assuming it's "a fighter essentially" is as misleading as assuming a Rogue is "a fighter essentially." Considering that Paladin will start with that "Zealous Barrage" ability from the beginning, a portion of their combat contribution is always going to come from the bonus to attack and attack speed they grant to allies around them, unless you choose not to use it for some bizarre reason.  Given the teamwork theme of the Paladin and the abilities that have been explained so far, an offensive Paladin sounds like it is only concerned with hitting its target to enable bonuses for allies attacking the target.   Which you could attribute to any other class that needs a weapon hit to connect.  

[TrashMan]

Yeah, well, I prefer my paladins to be capable of being more than buff-bots.

I like paladins being "essentialy fighters" because that's what they should be (IMHO)

[Sacred_Path]

Btw, how are paladins perceived in the world? I demand they be admired and reviled at a 50/50 rate

[mstark]

Do paladin auras stack? To clarify, in a 6 paladin party, can I have 6 different auras active and receive 6 separate buffs for each party member?

[Sensuki]

seems that way as long as its not the same auras

Edited June 20, 2013 by Sensuki

[Exile2k4]

Love the update, looks great.

 

One question I have - in the update it lists paladins as potentially being dedicated to orders or causes others perceive as bleak or malevolent. Are there plans to reflect this in game? In dialogue options? I love the thought of a game supporting my idea of a character with options that fit the character I want to play, but obviously there's only a fixed amount of work you can do, and the more branching/reactive options the shorter the overall game. Personally I'd love to play a religious zealot, a character whose dogmatic, single minded obsession leads them to do things others might perceive as evil, but with 11 classes/6 races and potentially different takes on each class, I'm not sure how much dialogue options/npc reactions can reflect a player's view of their character.

[Sistergoldring]

I think that the Paladins are sounding really interesting. I'm looking forward to finding out more about them and of course the other classes too. Thanks for another great update.