Now that you released the first video...

[Vortis]

When it's night, it's dark. The moon shine only a week in a month, i like infravision, torch etc.. Makes it more fun and scarry.

 

But what I would like most is to make them swim a bit. Characters that needs a path of stones to crossover a 50 ctm high river makes me cry.

[JFSOCC]

There's a cave, narrow and dark.

 

It is filled with enemies which are attracted to light. Too many to fight.

Yet, you'll need light to navigate. So, every few paces, as you bump into something soft and squishy again, you'll have to consider pulling out your torch and fighting the hordes of enemies which may be closer than you think. Hell it might be that thing you just bumped into.

Or it might be moss. Or slime moulds.

 

And there's traps triggered by light too, collapsing the ceilings above alcoves to deny you treasure and crush the unaware. Which seal the rooms you are in forcing you to find another exit, or be stuck.

There's small visual cues to show you where it is safe to light your torch, glimmerworms which aren't dead on some floors, bioluminescent moss, which isn't dead. And other sources of light, like a magically burning candle on a table which confirms that this place has seen intelligent life, where it actually ISN'T safe. You should know the artificial light holds a trap. (Because of the research you did before entering this cave, unless you didn't do your due dilligence)

 

And then finally, near the end of the cave, where the long lost treasure of Vertillian Metalsheen is, you pull out your torch because you NEED to see, except there is no light, because there is a Silent Night in the room, and it needs to be beaten first.

 

Yeah, I can see how light and darkness can make for exciting gameplay.

Edited April 11, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Gfted1]

I mean, really, if you're just flat-out against having to use light in the darkness, then you might as well be against having to overcome armor, or having to reveal magically invisible/stealthy enemies, or having to have lockpicks to pick locks. Is it really so bad that a certain situation would require a certain item/thing to overcome? (Is what I ask anyone who is so hardcore against the idea of darkness and useful lightsources that they STILL moan about even my compromise suggestion)

Im not against a "light source", Im against minutia. I don't want to have any mechanics in place whos sole purpose is to add a layer of busywork in the name of being "tactical". I don't want to eat/drink, I don't want to use the potty and I don't want to have to treat the blisters my party will get humping back and forth from rest points. If there is some method to abstractly represent a light source that doesn't force crap mechanics then Im all for it.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't want to have to treat the blisters my party will get humping back and forth from rest points

I now demand that vendors sell "Blister Wrappings +2" in stores just to make Gfted rage.

 

Fine by me

Actually, yeah...I think that could be pretty cool myself. Imagine giant purplish moons casting an eerie wash of color across a bright sky. Or whatever color suits your fancy.

[Gfted1]

 

I don't want to have to treat the blisters my party will get humping back and forth from rest points

I now demand that vendors sell "Blister Wrappings +2" in stores just to make Gfted rage.

 

 

GFTED1 SMASH!

[mokona]

The light effect in the video was neat but to me, personally, it's just a one trick pony. Once you've seen it used once or twice in interesting ways it is used up and won't contribute anything further to my enjoyment of the game. I'd rather have decent lighting so I can enjoy all those beautifully painted backgrounds.

 

On another note, tracking and managing Torch inventory is a useless pain in the rear.

[Shevek]

I think the nights are dark enough. This is one of those things that may sound good in theory (more realistic, etc), but it would just be silly in practice. Having to spend a few silver just to carry a large stack of torches that periodically go out on you is silly. It would add nothing to the game other than a minor money sink and bother the player with having to switch out spent consumables every 30 minutes. There would be no added challenege, no added tactical or strategic thought, no added gameplay depth or anything else.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Shevek

[Amentep]

 

Hell no. The last thing I want to do is have to carry around a bunch of torches (although we could carry the entire forests worth in our bottomless backpack) or have to put the torch down to re-equip my weapons.

Given how annoying that can be, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't make torches implicit. Although it might be interesting if there is a "Light Source" slot on each character, so that you can either leave a default torch there or add a magic torch, magic light, or other light source there. It'd also be interesting if stuff like lanterns could be used to change the light circle into a cone of light, or other shapes.

 

I liked how Dragon's Dogma did it; you had to equip a lantern that hung from your belt.  It used oil when equipped and always took an inventory space (as did the oil). 

 

But it meant that it was hands free (other than the seconds it took to pull it out, light it and hang it on the characters belt).  A lot better than torches, IMO, which I don't think tend to translate well from P&P to video games).

[Gfted1]

That's a good compromise. I also liked the idea someone mentioned earlier about a glowy crystal imbedded in your armor.

[Amentep]

Using Crystals opens the way to people saying "think of the power of crystals!" and then we're back in the 70s listening to New Age music while sitting cross-legged under a pyramid symbol, surrounded by crystals while meditating and frankly no one wants that.

 

I kid, crystals would be a good solution as well.  Or giant fireflies and glowworms as pets*.

 

*this could lead to awesome dialogue like "You arboreal menace!  You've slain my giant glowworm!"

[Osvir]

I believe that having a tedious element (such as torches in the main-hand/off-hand) early in the game might make the game better as a whole.

Why?

You begin with shoddy gear, shoddy execution, you got to equip a torch in your off-hand or main-hand to get more light in a dungeon (in essence: to see further in the FoW). As you get more party members/level up, find new gear, craft items, you start to learn that you can get better light sources (that doesn't require an off-hand/main-hand). Magical spells, lanterns on the belts, glowing armor, night vision upgrades, glowing crystals etc. etc. eventually the torch is a thing of the past and you've experienced some minor "evolution".

Scale is 1-10.
1-3 Early-Game
4-7 Mid-Game
8-10 Late-Game

1 = Tedious, primitive, torch. Requires off-hand or main-hand (Can drop or throw). Night Vision "Light"
3 = Spells on duration, lanterns, glowing crystals, Night Vision "Medium". Requires no hand usage (Paradigm shift).
6/7 = Constant light source spells, glowing armor, Night Vision "Pro" etc. etc.

Basically allowing the Player to go through a sort of "paradigm shift" where they become self-sustainable (in terms of light). The torch becomes a thing of the past, and can be re-used in a stereotypical "You've been stripped off all your gear"-Dungeon/Jail/Imprisonment Late-Game Level and characters could even react to it as well.

EDIT: Not to exclude tamed animals that see better in darkness (Panter or Cats with a great Night Vision, Wolves, Birds etc. etc.)

Edited April 11, 2013 by Osvir

[Greensleeve]

I believe that having a tedious element (such as torches in the main-hand/off-hand) early in the game might make the game better as a whole.

 

Why?

 

You begin with shoddy gear, shoddy execution, you got to equip a torch in your off-hand or main-hand to get more light in a dungeon (in essence: to see further in the FoW). As you get more party members/level up, find new gear, craft items, you start to learn that you can get better light sources (that doesn't require an off-hand/main-hand). Magical spells, lanterns on the belts, glowing armor, night vision upgrades, glowing crystals etc. etc. eventually the torch is a thing of the past and you've experienced some minor "evolution".

 

Scale is 1-10.

1-3 Early-Game

4-7 Mid-Game

8-10 Late-Game

 

1 = Tedious, primitive, torch. Requires off-hand or main-hand (Can drop or throw). Night Vision "Light"

3 = Spells on duration, lanterns, glowing crystals, Night Vision "Medium". Requires no hand usage (Paradigm shift).

6/7 = Constant light source spells, glowing armor, Night Vision "Pro" etc. etc.

 

Basically allowing the Player to go through a sort of "paradigm shift" where they become self-sustainable (in terms of light). The torch becomes a thing of the past, and can be re-used in a stereotypical "You've been stripped off all your gear"-Dungeon/Jail/Imprisonment Late-Game Level and characters could even react to it as well.

 

EDIT: Not to exclude tamed animals that see better in darkness (Panter or Cats with a great Night Vision, Wolves, Birds etc. etc.)

 

See, I don't think that would actually make the game into a better game as a whole. It would work great for games such as Legend of Grimrock or similar games where survival and dwindling resources are something central. In a game trying to bring back the Infinity Engine feel, you don't want that tedium. If you can hang a lantern on yourself, fine. But having to essentially gimp yourself in order to see is just not desirable, nor something that'll feel like an Infinity Engine game. Especially since light spells are low-level magic. 

 

No, darker night is one thing, and not something I'd have a problem with. But I think that the tedium of having to bother with torches is extremely out of place in the type of game Project Eternity should be.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

An interesting idea IMO, and while I personally don't really need darker nights, some darker and even pitch black(without light source) dungeons could add certain flavour to the game. And while it might seem like a hassle and a unnecessary reduction of characters damage/defence or what ever the torch slot would reduce, I think that light effects, both visual and mechanical, could be a good strategy asset.

 

Imagine a pitch black cave filled with monsters that can see in the dark. It could be that if the player enters without any light, there'd be some penalty in accuracy or a score of things, while the monsters have 0 penalty in everything and the visual effects of the darkness makes them hard to on both the characters and players standards. Now let's bring light into the equation. Let's assume that the monsters that see in the dark, are sensitive to light as a result. So, with something simple as a torch, the tables would be turned, with the players party enjoying good eye vision and 0 penalties from darkness, while the monster have a score of minuses on their side.

 

And well, IMO, a very dark room would create a more tense atmosphere than a less dark one. And the light effects from torches and spells would create a different kind of light element than sun(or equivelant), creating a different "mood" to the enviroment all together.

[The Mist Devil]

If I remember right, in Neverwinter Night there was an option to make nights really dark. It could possibly be done with PE, an option to make the nights/caves darker if we so desire without forcing it on those disliking such effects.

[Lephys]

If this is good for a game though is another question.

It's totally chocked full of vitamins and minerals, and helps promote healthy gameplay development.

 

 

Really, though, I think the possibility for some entity to take advantage of such a level of darkness and hide from/surprise your characters is useful, but the inability of your characters to see the ground 2 feet in front of them is not so much...

 

Which is why I'm all for some manner of compromise for the good of gameplay, so that darkness can still representatively affect detection and such (and maybe the ability to discern certain details, even within terrain or inanimate objects), but doesn't ever completely hinder your ability to navigate simple spaces/paths.

[Lephys]

Im not against a "light source", Im against minutia. I don't want to have any mechanics in place whos sole purpose is to add a layer of busywork in the name of being "tactical". I don't want to eat/drink, I don't want to use the potty and I don't want to have to treat the blisters my party will get humping back and forth from rest points. If there is some method to abstractly represent a light source that doesn't force crap mechanics then Im all for it.

Understandable. I realize you may have simply been responding to the sentiment, but, just to be clear (because we all know I'm sometimes neglectfully cloudy), I only meant that whole "If you're against such-and-such" bit as a pre-emptive comment for anyone who even shunned a compromise, and simply hated the idea of darkness affecting gameplay no matter what.

 

It wasn't directed at you, . And I agree that, even things that DO add interesting gameplay elements can be taken so far as to not be worth all the minutia they come with. But, with lightsources, I do think we can get oodles of benefit to gameplay while keeping the frustration manufacturing to a minimum.

[Ffordesoon]

What about localized pockets of unnatural darkness? That is to say, spells that blind enemies and/or the player?

[JFSOCC]

I still like my idea of enemies in the dark attracted to light. Makes for interesting gameplay.

[Amentep]

What about localized pockets of unnatural darkness? That is to say, spells that blind enemies and/or the player?

 

I may be in the minority, but I'd rather pockets of unnatural darkness effect the characters and not me.  *I, the player* didn't get hit by a blind spell, why should *I, the player* be blind.

 

While its a bit understandable in a first person game where your eyes are your character eyes, I'd rather they solve the issue differently for an isometric game.  Characters who stumble or can't find targets, etc. than blinding me.

 

 

I still like my idea of enemies in the dark attracted to light. Makes for interesting gameplay.

 

Only if there are grues afraid of the dark.  *Casts frotz on grue*

Edited April 12, 2013 by Amentep

[kalbinabiva]

wow dark nights! Especially on a new moon. Somebody could hide in the bushes 1 meter in front of you and you would not even be able to see him.

[Failion]

There certainly is creative things they can do with these effects. Light a room to raise the water level. Making traps and things that cause darkness. Terrain that hurts when animation plays. Or they can keep it completely cosmetic if they want.

[teknoman2]

a really nice spell could be the light wisp... the mage summons a very bright wisp that you can move around with your party and illuminates the area. it doesnt just follow you around, but you can send it ahead to light up that dark room or hallway. also you can find and light up torches and other things along the way to create a steady source of light. darkness is needed, because as someone said in another topic, how can a dungeon abbandoned for centuries and inhabited by zombies or other non sentient critters have lit torches all over?

[Osvir]

I still like my idea of enemies in the dark attracted to light. Makes for interesting gameplay.

 

Indeed! Furthermore, one area where an oily shadowy darkness psuedo-Fog of War enemy (an enemy that is imitating "Fog of War") is ever-closing in on you, so you have to use a torch/light source or else the darkness will engulf you, and at the same time there's monsters/enemies that are attracted to light, so what do you do? 

 

EDIT: There could be some creative solutions to it as well (except the most obvious one "Bring out light source and fight everything that comes close enough"), Flash bombs and other light sources that attracts the enemies elsewhere, blind spells. Perhaps the enemies can only physically see light?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Osvir

[Osvir]

Well, the game's setting is not earth, it is a new fantasy world.

 

Who knows how dark it really gets there? Maybe the planet has a really bright moon? Or several?

So the "realism" argument in favor of darker nights falls flat.

 

It should only get so dark that you require torches, if the developers feel that it would considerably add to the gameplay.

 

It would be awesome if P:E had several different days (Like "The Elder Scrolls"), and different nights could have different moons

 

I could probably stretch it as far as I'd be okay if some Quests could only be accessed during some nights. Replayability and a sense of surprise (One game I get to a certain area on Day 5, another game I get there on Day 3, and there's a quest there on Day 3). For the Community as well, I miss the quest entirely on my first playthrough, and someone else finds it and tells about it making me "Oh! Got to check that out hoho!".

 

It could possibly also allow Obsidian to insert some more content without having to make more areas/landscapes..

 

Maybe some spells could only work on certain nights! (high-level stuff)

 

Okay I'm immersing myself too much in this idea *documented* Just seeing so much that could be done with it

[JFSOCC]

 

 

I still like my idea of enemies in the dark attracted to light. Makes for interesting gameplay.

Indeed! Furthermore, one area where an oily shadowy darkness psuedo-Fog of War enemy (an enemy that is imitating "Fog of War") is ever-closing in on you, so you have to use a torch/light source or else the darkness will engulf you, and at the same time there's monsters/enemies that are attracted to light, so what do you do? 

 

EDIT: There could be some creative solutions to it as well (except the most obvious one "Bring out light source and fight everything that comes close enough"), Flash bombs and other light sources that attracts the enemies elsewhere, blind spells. Perhaps the enemies can only physically see light?

 

 

 

 

There's a cave, narrow and dark.

 

It is filled with enemies which are attracted to light. Too many to fight.

Yet, you'll need light to navigate. So, every few paces, as you bump into something soft and squishy again, you'll have to consider pulling out your torch and fighting the hordes of enemies which may be closer than you think. Hell it might be that thing you just bumped into.

Or it might be moss. Or slime moulds.

 

And there's traps triggered by light too, collapsing the ceilings above alcoves to deny you treasure and crush the unaware. Which seal the rooms you are in forcing you to find another exit, or be stuck.

There's small visual cues to show you where it is safe to light your torch, glimmerworms which aren't dead on some floors, bioluminescent moss, which isn't dead. And other sources of light, like a magically burning candle on a table which confirms that this place has seen intelligent life, where it actually ISN'T safe. You should know the artificial light holds a trap. (Because of the research you did before entering this cave, unless you didn't do your due dilligence)

 

And then finally, near the end of the cave, where the long lost treasure of Vertillian Metalsheen is, you pull out your torch because you NEED to see, except there is no light, because there is a Silent Night in the room, and it needs to be beaten first.

 

Yeah, I can see how light and darkness can make for exciting gameplay.