Update #41: D&D: Dwarves and Doors

[rjshae]

 

Well, I'm a bit disappointed... this dwarf looks kinda like Jean Luc Picard, with different beards attached. I hope this is really "wark in praaahgress, so don't go whaa?". Besides, the dwarven beard is somethin that their kin are proud of, not make fun of. This is mine imagination of how dwarves should look like, I mean c'mon - isn't he badass? Surely his wallet has "mean mofo" written on it!

 

The faces in the OP? They look nothing like Jean-Luc Picard. I mean, like... what? I... what? Do all bald people look alike to you or something?

 

I think Messier-31 is probably picking up on the similarities in the nose structures. But Patrick Stewart doesn't have as broad a jaw line and lacks the prominent brow ridges of the dwarf model. Hence they bare only a passing similarity, and I certainly don't understand why that is even a problem. Just a common troll, I expect.

Edited February 7, 2013 by rjshae

[sirchet]

Please tell us we'll have smash-able doors and chests ... Pleeaaasseeee!

[Faerunner]

This is amazing. I love reading your guys' updates. I always used to wonder how video games and, especially, my favorite RPG's were made. Watching this process is almost as enjoyable as playing the games. While I eagerly await the completion of Project Eternity, the weekly-ish updates are so interesting that it makes the wait much more enjoyable. ^^

 

The dwarves look amazing, by the way. ^^

[Messier-31]

 

 

Well, I'm a bit disappointed... this dwarf looks kinda like Jean Luc Picard, with different beards attached. I hope this is really "wark in praaahgress, so don't go whaa?". Besides, the dwarven beard is somethin that their kin are proud of, not make fun of. This is mine imagination of how dwarves should look like, I mean c'mon - isn't he badass? Surely his wallet has "mean mofo" written on it!

 

The faces in the OP? They look nothing like Jean-Luc Picard. I mean, like... what? I... what? Do all bald people look alike to you or something?

 

I think Messier-31 is probably picking up on the similarities in the nose structures. But Patrick Stewart doesn't have as broad a jaw line and lacks the prominent brow ridges of the dwarf model. Hence they bare only a passing similarity, and I certainly don't understand why that is even a problem. Just a common troll, I expect.

 

Listen, mate: JLP was just my first impression (not only mine for that matter, but don't ask me for a testimony, unless you are familiar with slavic languages), when I saw it, so it makes me a troll? It's not like I compared it to a Chevrolet Chevelle from 1965, or something. It would be unfair to the chevy (joke alert!). You guys can't stand when someone has a different opinion, or what? Now if you'll excuse me, I got some trollin' to do back in mah mossy cave. Cheers.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sirchet, I'll join you in your choir of deploration (just adding guns shooting locks to the begging):

Please OE, and let us know soon. And if it is a dreaded no, please explain why. 

[WorstUsernameEver]

Please tell us we'll have smash-able doors and chests ... Pleeaaasseeee!

If I recall correctly Sawyer was against it in New Vegas because it made lockpicking an arguably useless skill. Of course, he's designing the system from the ground up, so he might be balancing it with smashing doors and chests in mind.

[Tamerlane]

 

 

 

Well, I'm a bit disappointed... this dwarf looks kinda like Jean Luc Picard, with different beards attached. I hope this is really "wark in praaahgress, so don't go whaa?". Besides, the dwarven beard is somethin that their kin are proud of, not make fun of. This is mine imagination of how dwarves should look like, I mean c'mon - isn't he badass? Surely his wallet has "mean mofo" written on it!

 

The faces in the OP? They look nothing like Jean-Luc Picard. I mean, like... what? I... what? Do all bald people look alike to you or something?

 

I think Messier-31 is probably picking up on the similarities in the nose structures. But Patrick Stewart doesn't have as broad a jaw line and lacks the prominent brow ridges of the dwarf model. Hence they bare only a passing similarity, and I certainly don't understand why that is even a problem. Just a common troll, I expect.

 

Listen, mate: JLP was just my first impression (not only mine for that matter, but don't ask me for a testimony, unless you are familiar with slavic languages), when I saw it, so it makes me a troll? It's not like I compared it to a Chevrolet Chevelle from 1965, or something. It would be unfair to the chevy (joke alert!). You guys can't stand when someone has a different opinion, or what? Now if you'll excuse me, I got some trollin' to do back in mah mossy cave. Cheers.

Clearly you are just bald-people racist.

[Jenda]

I believe lockpicking can be balanced against other methods of opening locked doors, containers etc., so it doesn't become obsolete even if there are a number of viable options. For starters, you can award more XP for a successful lockpick than for other resolutions, and make all options comparably difficult.

 

Brute force methods should alert nearby enemies of your presence, drain your stamina, possibly damage the weapon used, and in case of containers, break potions and other fragile consumables. Magical methods should destroy (non-quest) scrolls in chests - depending on the mechanics, this should encourage mages of all people to have lockpickers available. Also, magical attempts could have a chance of critical failure preventing further magic attempts (e.g., you melt a lock with a focused fire spell, but all you achieve is blocking the latch in place, leaving the door stuck until bashed in).

 

Doors and chests could have various levels of high DT (moderately high for a flimsy door, very high for a sturdy door, immense for steel doors etc.), plus they wouldn't be subject to minimum DT penetration - this way, only characters with big weapons and strength could bash doors and/or containers. If you somehow managed to get an equivalent of a 20+ STR character with a gigantic maul, perhaps you should be able to bash even otherwise indestructible doors. A dual-dagger weilding rogue should and would only be able to "bash" through a canvas sheet.

[rjshae]

I believe lockpicking can be balanced against other methods of opening locked doors, containers etc., so it doesn't become obsolete even if there are a number of viable options. For starters, you can award more XP for a successful lockpick than for other resolutions, and make all options comparably difficult.

 

Perhaps it is possible to provide a mixture of situations; some where it makes sense only to use lockpicking and others where brute force attacks are more appropriate?

 

For example, if you're confronted with a locked and trapped chest in a town, then using brute force would make little sense since it could quickly cause an alarm. In contrast, an old, musty dungeon may have doors with encrusted locks that can only be opened through brute force. In the middle lies a situation where you're not concerned about raising an alarm, but all of the easy pickings have long since been looted. This leaves solid old chests and heavy, barred doors that would require significant effort to force open, but which can still be attacked physically by a powerful character wielding a suitable tool. These types of objects can be treated as having armor that is resistant to most weapons, hence requiring that the party lug a heavy pick around (or else summon a resilient creature like an earth elemental).

 

Providing a mixture could gives a sense of flexibility while still yielding much value for the lockpick skill.

Edited February 8, 2013 by rjshae

[Ulquiorra]

 

I believe lockpicking can be balanced against other methods of opening locked doors, containers etc., so it doesn't become obsolete even if there are a number of viable options. For starters, you can award more XP for a successful lockpick than for other resolutions, and make all options comparably difficult.

 

Perhaps it is possible to provide a mixture of situations; some where it makes sense only to use lockpicking and others where brute force attacks are more appropriate?

 

No we don't have enought resorces .. we must centel all lockpicking mechanics

[rjshae]

^^^ I'm not quite sure I understand what you're attempting to say.

Edited February 8, 2013 by rjshae

[zimcub]

Clearly you are just bald-people racist.

Now you're just being stupid.

Even i can see how the shaved model top half might resemble Patrick Stewart, although that wasn't my first thought.

Just because he doesn't like the model doesn't make him some kind of a racist. A lot of designers use models/tv stars to help design characters so connecting it to a know person isn't really that strange, even though it probably wasn't the case here.

 

 

As for the model i will also point out that i find it lacking a bit as i prefer heavier bearded dwarves like the models in warhammer online where the beard reaches all the way to the cheek bones instead of just the jaw line

 

Obsidian sends a newsletter every update asking what we think about the update, and i'm giving it.

You don't like it? Tough luck.

[GrinningReaper659]

Please tell us we'll have smash-able doors and chests ... Pleeaaasseeee!

I wholeheartedly agree. I've already articulated my stance in the "KNOCK KNOCK!?" thread, so I won't bother reiterating, but I'll be pretty disappointed if locks can only be bypassed via the lockpick skill.

[Messier-31]

Clearly you are just bald-people racist.

 

Not even once have I said (wrote?) anything about baldness being a bad thing, yet here you already two times used this argument in this conversation. There is this saying in polish language "głodnemu chleb na myśli" roughly translated to "a hungry person has bread in his mind". So, maybe it is you having a "bald" problem? But hell, forget it, I don't wanna know. Goodbye and thanks for the fish.

 

 

Clearly you are just bald-people racist.

Now you're just being stupid.

Even i can see how the shaved model top half might resemble Patrick Stewart, although that wasn't my first thought.

Just because he doesn't like the model doesn't make him some kind of a racist. A lot of designers use models/tv stars to help design characters so connecting it to a know person isn't really that strange, even though it probably wasn't the case here.

 

 

As for the model i will also point out that i find it lacking a bit as i prefer heavier bearded dwarves like the models in warhammer online where the beard reaches all the way to the cheek bones instead of just the jaw line

 

Obsidian sends a newsletter every update asking what we think about the update, and i'm giving it.

You don't like it? Tough luck.

 

Hell yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it

[rjshae]

^^^ I think these are just some samples to illustrate the work they are doing. Personally I'm fine with playing a dwarf that doesn't fit every stereotypical archetype. It's a new world; new rules can apply.

[zimcub]

^^^ I think these are just some samples to illustrate the work they are doing. Personally I'm fine with playing a dwarf that doesn't fit every stereotypical archetype. It's a new world; new rules can apply.

While i agree with you there i feel like the current model looks too human. You could have easily said that this was a human model and you wouldn't take a pause to disagree. So while it's not stereotype it's not really new either.

[rjshae]

 

^^^ I think these are just some samples to illustrate the work they are doing. Personally I'm fine with playing a dwarf that doesn't fit every stereotypical archetype. It's a new world; new rules can apply.

While i agree with you there i feel like the current model looks too human. You could have easily said that this was a human model and you wouldn't take a pause to disagree. So while it's not stereotype it's not really new either.

 

Ah... well I'm still not seeing a problem, but we all have our own preferences. Personally I thought it had neanderthal-like features. It seems distinctive enough for this game's purposes. You're not exactly going to be seeing a lot of detail at the expected scale.

[Tamerlane]

 

Clearly you are just bald-people racist.

 

Not even once have I said (wrote?) anything about baldness being a bad thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

[rjshae]

The real problem with bald dwarves? The constant glare...

[Lephys]

But they're much more majestic, like bald eagles. And, like the eagles, they're probably fueled by freedom. Freedom Dwarves. *nods*

[LadyCrimson]

To me a dwarf is largely about size (short) and stature (stocky/muscular) rather than their face. Or if they're paintings, often they're shown as being older with broad/ruddy faces and big noses (and beards, often). But heads with no color etc. don't tell me much about what they're going to look like in the game. I don't see that they're going to look all that different, to be honest. Hard to tell from just a white model head, imo. Stick those heads on the "typical" dwarf body and they may look not much different than your average dwarf in overall impression then, when combined with the expected stature.

 

eg, they always look rather "human" to me anyway, so I'm a little confused by the statements that this might be a negative. I think they look fine, for model heads.

[zimcub]

As i said already it's mostly the beard that i find lacking. It's what mostly defines a dwarf for me and different ornaments, lengths and designs are what separates one dwarf from another and gives them character. You could always recognize that this is a dwarf by it even if it's just the head that is shown.

 

As far as the model goes, the nose isn't really that big, I've see people in in real life with noses like that, same goes for brows. The
only difference is the jaw width, which might be a bit uncommon but hardly exaggerated. If they initially announced this model to be human instead of dwarf, no one would assume otherwise, and would just think that it's just a more rugged type of character (Think Hulk Hogan). This is why a distinct beard is required.

 

Now you can claim that a heavily bearded dwarf is just stereotyping and that it's better if it's something different, but how is looking more like a human really different?

You take away it's dwarven characteristics, it's beard ornaments, that could describe it's history or clan or whatever lore they will have, and you replace it with typical human features.

If that's fine than why not just give human model a height and width slider at the creation screen and you'll get the same effect?

 

EDIT:

Actually never mind, you win, I can't be bothered to talk about this anymore since art is subjective and it's really just my point of view, i already posted the model design that i think looks cool and it's up to obsidian to decide what to make of it.

Edited February 9, 2013 by zimcub

[Archmage Silver]

It's good to see how thorough the attention to detail is within the team.

[LadyCrimson]

Actually never mind, you win, I can't be bothered to talk about this anymore since art is subjective and it's really just my point of view, i already posted the model design that i think looks cool and it's up to obsidian to decide what to make of it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to "win" anything ... my post wasn't directed specifically at you, just a general commenting on the concept of dwarf vs. human.

 

I can understand preferring characters with fancy artwork beards, that's personal taste as you mention, but my confusion is why having such may make them seem less human, or something. By that I mean, there are apparently plenty of human men who can grow/style some pretty funky beards in real life, some of which at least resemble or could be turned into the typical fantasy dwarf look with little effort. I see pics of guys like Jack Passion, who seems perfectly human to me, and I don't see how the beard makes a non-human. That's all I mean.

 

Edit: on what makes them different from your average human - their average height, strength for size, and constitution, mostly, imo.

[uaciaut]

Wow people are elitists even when it comes to dward model/design. Next up, picks of how hairy gnome feet should be and how groomed said hair should be.

 

Seriously, even if you did preffer the specific design of a certain element (race in this case) in a game it doesn't mean that all other games should you PRECISELY YOUR prefference/vision of said race to the point of what jewelry they should have in their beards and how everything around them should have runic designs on them. Chill out and be more open minded, we'll see exactly how stuff really feels like when the game's out anyway D:

As i said already it's mostly the beard that i find lacking.

I'm tempted to rewrite that quote as "i find your lack of beard disturbing" and sig it D: Edited February 10, 2013 by uaciaut