Male/Female+Classes, Lore

[Dream]

This is what you get when you try and come up with a new idea thread every day.

[Osvir]

^More like:
Read threads -> get ideas -> start post in thread -> post becomes brainstorm -> brainstorm post becomes "Should be its own thread" -> Becomes its own thread.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[Felithvian]

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

[Ieo]

Historically, Osvir, your "brainstorm" threads aren't very fruitful and more often than not aren't appropriate for PE for a variety of reasons. Don't get me wrong; I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but it's like you don't understand how the preproduction stage actually works: OBSIDIAN brainstorms, we vet, they tweak. This is their creative product, not yours (ours).

 

The most we should be doing is offering feedback or specific ideas that are not only content-positive (i.e. argumentatively improve player experience on its face with decent perceived RoI) but also appropriate for PE as an IE tribute.

 

Your ideas, historically, are neither content-positive (lots of resources for little or no gain, or a layer of unnecessary complexity) nor appropriate for PE (e.g. full VO, emoticon-like facial expression for every dialogue option, gear-based character advancement, LOS mechanic that requires a 3D environment with rotating camera, limiting pause functionally as a measure of difficulty, etc.). IMO.

 

Now, I'm not encouraging a chilling effect or anything, but you could be more mindful of your topics. And yes, it's easier to pick on your threads due to frequency. Does a proposal go with the feel of the IE games? Would the inclusion require significant resources or impinge on the player experience instead of enriching?

 

Well, I suppose in terms of judgment, Obsidian is always in the better position, so I'll remain confidant that they can separate the signal from the noise. We'll still evaluate as players, of course.

 

...Still NO. (Reasons explained by others already. )

[Dream]

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

[Alexjh]

 

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

I'd actually agree with needing more Peter Molyneuxs - I'd rather the games industry be in a state where there are loads of hyper ambitious people who fail to live up to their imagination than one where people aren't even trying to push the boundaries.

[Osvir]

@Ieo: I get the sentiment :D what I do is just close my eyes and imagine Baldur's Gate but with my, yours or Obsidian's ideas on top of it. I don't know what you do, but that's what I do because this forum is about a spiritual successor to that game. LOS is LOS is only about 3D objects, and does not require you to be able to rotate camera (see Nox), heck even Baldur's Gate has LOS (you can't see around a corner unless you go to the corner).

As a creative man myself, I get ideas, I'm creative/innovative and I just go whacky with it. "Digging" down deeper on the patch of dirt looking if there's anything there. If there's not, then I wouldn't be down there, something shiny on the ground, a piece of gold or whatnot (boom, and now I have a brainstorming idea for [Digging]). If there's problems of understanding or problems of complaining, then I'll do my best to explain. This doesn't mean that I am in favor of the idea, I am objective.

It is at the end of the thread we come to an understanding. Granted we read all the posts in the thread and manage to come to some conclusion.

"This is material" in a way that a Computer is Material. I can throw my computer out of the window if I decide to do that (not that I will).

The point; I get some intelligent people saying "No" and some intelligent people saying "Yes", and I sit in the middle of the chaos looking at both sides and understanding the perspectives. I'm a middle-man. Many of the threads I create, I get such a response in a way that I feel "NO" towards "feature creep" rather than the idea itself, or what Alexjh says "Pushing boundaries".

Why do you insist in thinking I am on some other page than you guys? "P:E" should be the best it can be, in a way that it is "P:E" and not only "IE 2.1".

+3 Arrows was a joke Ieo. Didn't mean to sound rude, just thought it funny when I saw it and couldn't resist. No bad blood kk?  I think you're a nice guy too! (very intelligent too, I really like pretty much all your posts Ieo).
 

Does a proposal go with the feel of the IE games? Would the inclusion require significant resources or impinge on the player experience instead of enriching?

 

Do you want a copy+paste? No I don't think so. Lore obviously is going to be different in P:E. Don't forget "Read Ancient Poetry" as well. And it is always about making the player experience gloriously enriched brother classes themselves were pretty bland in the IE games and the only game I can think of that had a twist too it was PS:T. Are Fighters part of the P:E world? How? Why? What do they do? Where do they go? What kind of culture? Profession?

What is the Paladin? Cipher? Priest? Does there exist a Holy Religious Order or several of them? Are there Male and Female Dominated Orders/Factions? Why? How? Where? What do they do? Etc.etc.

@Alexjh: Thank you! That goes in my bloody signature.... "I push boundaries"

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[Dream]

 

 

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

I'd actually agree with needing more Peter Molyneuxs - I'd rather the games industry be in a state where there are loads of hyper ambitious people who fail to live up to their imagination than one where people aren't even trying to push the boundaries.

Peter Molyneux isn't hyper ambitious; he just makes **** up and lies his ass off. 

[Alexjh]

 

 

 

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

I'd actually agree with needing more Peter Molyneuxs - I'd rather the games industry be in a state where there are loads of hyper ambitious people who fail to live up to their imagination than one where people aren't even trying to push the boundaries.

Peter Molyneux isn't hyper ambitious; he just makes **** up and lies his ass off. 

If you are going to take the most basic view of him then yes, he does, but I've always read it more as he basically comes up with loads of ideas, gets very excited by them so has to tell someone, which might be a news outlet of some sort, and then he goes back into work and his artists and programmers are like "what the hell Peter? we can't do any of that stuff with our budget/time/resources!".  It's annoying sure, but I never get the impression he's doing it because he wants to trick you into having this, just that he wants to have these things and then reality conspires to prevent him doing so.

[JFSOCC]

I like your brainstorm threads. yes, most of them aren't very fruitful. so what.

 

I have an anecdote about Albert Einstein. Einstein was a friendly rival of Niels Bohr. At the time, it was Bohr's ideas that held sway.

Einstein didn't like it. They would go out (with friends) and every time Einstein would have come up with a new theory, or a change in one he had before.

And every time, Bohr would find the holes in them, and shoot them down.

Eventually Einstein came with a theory he couldn't shoot down.

 

If only for the pleasure of shooting ideas down I vote Osvir continues his threads

Plenty of times they have served as inspiration for my own.

[NOK222]

One day Osvir will have his E=MC2

[Jobby]

Einstien was one of the most notorious plagerists known to science, irrelevant, but worth stating, on topic i have always advocated there being a difference between male and female classes, abilities and attributes, not because i am sexist but because men and women are different, they always will be, in real life certain professions will appeal more to women than men (and vice versa), I am a bit tired of fantasy games ignoring this simple fact of life, even when they try to bring in more complex themes that parallel society they generally avoid the sexism argument (and i can understand to some extent why). 

 

I don't think there needs to be huge differences but the idea of certain cultures finding female warriors abhorrent and then showing this belief by scorning your party would be a nice touch, likewise with, as Osvir suggested, male priests being considered to be out of place in some cultures, given that it is a fantasy game it doesn't need to be clear cut "man fight, woman cook" you could have a society similar to the dark elves in BG2 for example.

 

Point is, they've already stated there will be mature themes in this game, I don't see why sexism has to be avoided but racism is allowed.

 

P.S. i enjoy your meandering brainstorm posts too Osvir, although you maybe shouldn't quote yourself in the original post lol

[Ieo]

Why is the quote function all screwed up in the add-post thing?

 

Point is, they've already stated there will be mature themes in this game, I don't see why sexism has to be avoided but racism is allowed.

You're missing the point. Osvir wants sexism built into parts of the classes themselves--some by title only (without actual differences, hence pointless), another by getting rid of Obsidian's own already described priest and paladin classes...

 

Basically, his approach is bass-ackwards: Obsidian supports player choice in most things (as many things as possible). That means freedom for whatever class and sex you choose (think about the "purpose ready" update statement too). Then the WORLD reacts to those initial choices and subsequent actions at the local level. Of course there's going to be racism and sexism, but that's endemic to parts of the world itself, not something at character creation (i.e. that wouldn't be "reactive content"). I mean, Osvir did propose something about global "good/evil" reputation, but all of that flies in the face of Project Eternity's direction because we should all know there's no concept of alignment.

 

 

 

The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

I'd actually agree with needing more Peter Molyneuxs - I'd rather the games industry be in a state where there are loads of hyper ambitious people who fail to live up to their imagination than one where people aren't even trying to push the boundaries.

 

Well, besides which that comparison is irrelevant here. There is a vast, vast difference between an actual game designer and programmer in the industry who creates his own contexts for his ideas and tries to follow through, even with failure. That's why his approach, while off-the-wall and whatever, is respectable in some sense. Here? We have people throwing half-baked ideas at someone else's creative context.

 

If you think you're all that awesome creative, build your own world and game rules or write your own book or something. Like some of us are already doing on our own time. 

[Jobby]

Why is the quote function all screwed up in the add-post thing?

 

Point is, they've already stated there will be mature themes in this game, I don't see why sexism has to be avoided but racism is allowed.

You're missing the point. Osvir wants sexism built into parts of the classes themselves--some by title only (without actual differences, hence pointless), another by getting rid of Obsidian's own already described priest and paladin classes...

I do see what you mean however I'm not entirely against it in the character creation screen either, different names for different sexes same professions is a bit pointless (although it is mimicked in real life to some degree), but i do think there should be advantages and disadvantages when choosing the sex of your character beyond aesthetics, again Obsidian have already stated that this will not be the case and i respect their decision, hence my example of how sex could affect reputation and standing with various factions.

 

I would personally propose quite major reactions, although ideally without locking too much game content out, for example, some race or culture don't like women to fight, therefore their fighters guild doesn't allow women in, in order to get into the fighters guild as a female you have to first complete a set of quests for a militant woman's suffragette group.

 

Alternatively if you play as a female this militant suffragette group is your alternative to the fighters guild (and perhaps halfway through the questline this group and fighters guild merge at which point you will have a decent standing and carry on the male branch of quests), point is i'd like to see something real, as opposed to "if you play male women like you more, if you play female men like you more".

[LadyCrimson]

Why is the quote function all screwed up in the add-post thing?

There was a forum software update. It's not technically "messed up", but in quick reply it no longer seems to show the tags ... I only see the 'boxes' in the WYSIWIG "preview" area.

 

Something about saving in HTML vs. BBcode or something probably. If you turn off BBcode mode (the paperclip in the far upper left) you can see the tags then.

[Osvir]

Why is the quote function all screwed up in the add-post thing?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63180-forum-update/

I mean, Osvir did propose something about global "good/evil" reputation, but all of that flies in the face of Project Eternity's direction because we should all know there's no concept of alignment.

High Reputation (Good) = Faction B dislike, Faction A like, Faction C skeptic

High Reputation (Evil) = Faction A dislike, Faction B like, Faction C skeptic

High Reputation (Neutral) = Faction A+B skeptic, Faction C likes

 

Alignment/Reputation/Morality/Faction-Based w/e it's the same thing just different names. Mechanically might function in various ways but it's there to fulfill the same thing. Just like High Chaos and Low Chaos does the same thing in Dishonored, some sort of "Feedback" on your characters personality.

 

What I was proposing was a "Global Reputation" so you can get a "Temperature" on where you're at in the World, instead of having some sort of 10-15 Faction List that you have to go through to see who likes you and who doesn't. Didn't get far in Fallout: NV but that's one of the initial feelings I got about it when I began to interact with Reputation.

 

I like where Jobby is going, Male could have some easy way through some instances and Female could likewise have an easy way through some instances. I wouldn't mind flirt my opponent as a Female, just to take them down non-lethaly so that the rest of gang can enter. Seduction, and that's not perversion or anything but an actual skill and if proficient enough; a very effective method on swaying men. 1+1+1 (Male+Female+Seduction)+1(Dialogue Options)

 

Paladin says nothing about "Male/Female", but Priest does, I wrote the thread from memory and what I recalled and I'm looking into both of those links and thinking "Yep, that can be fleshed out a lot and we can be innovative with it still". Even if it is the finished product (as in 100%, you can always come up with new things). I am not suggesting that the Paladin should be "My" Paladin but I am looking at the "Assets" and seeing what they got and puzzling that together with another asset, 1+1 (Paladin+Priest).

 

Likewise, Paladin doesn't say that Priests and Paladin do not have any relations, actually, Paladin+Priest does have one relationship (taken out of context! Just saying, read all of it @Paladin-link above):

Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a chosen cause, combining the zeal of a priest with the ascetic discipline of a monk.

The bold implies that Paladin and Priest are related, and the Monk too, even if it is more "figure of speech" to explain the Paladin, it explains the Paladin by mentioning the Priest and the Monk. You don't say that the Fighter is a Ranger or draw inspiration from the Ranger, do you? It'd actually be less work for Obsidian if they just had one main "Holy Order" and threw Paladin, Priest and Monk into it (not advocating for it! Just stating the obvious). 1+1+1+1 (Paladin+Priest+Monk+Religion).

 

@Wanting only title change: No, I am actually suggesting that Barbarian could have an Amazon skillset as well, let's look at Diablo 2. Barbarian and Amazon are quite different in their builds and skills. If Barbarian could have some Amazon traits, I'd be happy cus I think it would be cool  1+1 (Barbarian+Amazon Skillset).

 

If only for the pleasure of shooting ideas down I vote Osvir continues his threads 

Plenty of times they have served as inspiration for my own.

Same ^ though I would like to say that about everyone, everyone is an inspiration Wizard  

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[Alexjh]

I think Osvir that the thing you have to bear in mind when doing these threads is that quite a few of the ideas you are pitching at the wall are basically generic fantasy game ideas which aren't really tailored to PE as such, or occassionally miss the point entirely.

 

PE is a fixed perspective isometric 2D RPG with tactical class based combat where the player creates a single protagonist and can recruit a number of addition party members.  Characters are customised as they level up through skills, abilities and equiptment to create the characters that the player wants to choose to use.

 

This is the framework your ideas need to fit within. So, to pick one idea from that last post of yours, whether or not Barbarians by default have Amazon traits is kind of irrelevant - you can build them in to your specific character as you level up.  I'm not saying don't come up with ideas, thats good, just focus down the scope a little.  

 

On the subject of Paladins and Priest, the closest analogy I can think of that demonstrates how they are affiliated, but different (in D&D this is, PE has already been confirmed to have  Paladins which aren't inherantly religious) is that Clerics are effectively like a GP, while a Paladin is basically like a surgeon.  Both are within a hospital and both are needed by the hospital, but, ones job is to be an expert on the specific bits of obscure knowledge required by the profession and know how to apply them and what needs doing when, the others job is to cut things that need cutting.    

 

Also the "combining the zeal of a priest" reads to me as a metaphor rather than an actual connection.  Zealotry isn't an inherantly religious thing, and its phrased in a way more like "hey you know those really zealous guys? this guy is just as zealous as them!"

[Osvir]

Thanks man, explains a lot

It's good to hear another one's perspective, but I'm really on the same page:

PE is a fixed perspective isometric 2D RPG with tactical class based combat where the player creates a single protagonist and can recruit a number of addition party members.  Characters are customized as they level up through skills, abilities and equipment to create the characters that the player wants to choose to use.

This is the framework you need to look at my ideas with.

This is also something that has been said to me several times xD I get it! I love Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment and although I might not have finished all of them entirely, I know the mechanical system of how they work. I've played with DLTCEP and other tool-sets to figure out the core files "What is it that keeps Baldur's Gate together??", I know what assets exist and what you can do with the editors and how you can mod the IE games.

 

This is the framework your ideas need to fit within. So, to pick one idea from that last post of yours, whether or not Barbarians by default have Amazon traits is kind of irrelevant - you can build them in to your specific character as you level up.  I'm not saying don't come up with ideas, that's good, just focus down the scope a little.

But it is relevant!! If P:E ships without an Amazon skillset I'd be absolutely fine. But the point is that at least now it's been asked.

[Alexjh]

I did specify "by default" as in as a class feature - the thing here is that you were basically pitching a Barbarian-Amazon fusion class, which would be pretty concept intense.  On average, my reading of the official posts is that the classes in PE are essentially going to be loose archetypes with a limited number of "exclusive" features within each.  So to take a Barbarian, it might be a rage power, an attack speed bonus and a damage resistance power, and then the rest is up to you.  In a game like this, the devs aren't going to go "well there will be mandatory greataxe feats, barbarians can only ever wear hide armour and they must all have huge bushy beards": what the implication seems to be is that if you want to build a barbarian who is just a direct version of those things, but if you wanted a female barbarian who specialised in javelins and spears and other Amazony things thats your perogative to build that, or even build an intellectual Barbarian who is an expert in historic porelein figurines, loves cucumber sandwiches and fights with a rapier while wearing silk robes.  It's all valid but as long as they include the options to make your Amazon, that should be available to take those in all the other classes too and then you can build the exact character you want.

 

This isn't to say there shouldn't be some inworld restrictions like I pitched earlier in this thread, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where a particular gender/race or whatever is entirely locked off from an entire class. If specific orders of wizards only accept Dwarves or Women or Dwarven Women that's fine, but as long as there are other orders of wizards who have an open doors policy to compensate.  Characters are really separated into 2 aspects: Form (race and gender) and mechanics (class and build), and while you can say that certain mechanics might preclude other mechanics, form should never really preclude any general options.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Alexjh

[Amentep]

nvm

Edited January 18, 2013 by Amentep

[Osvir]

I did specify "by default" as in as a class feature - the thing here is that you were basically pitching a Barbarian-Amazon fusion class, which would be pretty concept intense.  On average, my reading of the official posts is that the classes in PE are essentially going to be loose archetypes with a limited number of "exclusive" features within each.  So to take a Barbarian, it might be a rage power, an attack speed bonus and a damage resistance power, and then the rest is up to you.  In a game like this, the devs aren't going to go "well there will be mandatory greataxe feats, barbarians can only ever wear hide armour and they must all have huge bushy beards": what the implication seems to be is that if you want to build a barbarian who is just a direct version of those things, but if you wanted a female barbarian who specialised in javelins and spears and other Amazony things thats your perogative to build that, or even build an intellectual Barbarian who is an expert in historic porelein figurines, loves cucumber sandwiches and fights with a rapier while wearing silk robes.  It's all valid but as long as they include the options to make your Amazon, that should be available to take those in all the other classes too and then you can build the exact character you want.

 

This isn't to say there shouldn't be some inworld restrictions like I pitched earlier in this thread, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where a particular gender/race or whatever is entirely locked off from an entire class. If specific orders of wizards only accept Dwarves or Women or Dwarven Women that's fine, but as long as there are other orders of wizards who have an open doors policy to compensate.  Characters are really separated into 2 aspects: Form (race and gender) and mechanics (class and build), and while you can say that certain mechanics might preclude other mechanics, form should never really preclude any general options.

Yes

[Dream]

If you are going to take the most basic view of him then yes, he does, but I've always read it more as he basically comes up with loads of ideas, gets very excited by them so has to tell someone, which might be a news outlet of some sort, and then he goes back into work and his artists and programmers are like "what the hell Peter? we can't do any of that stuff with our budget/time/resources!".  It's annoying sure, but I never get the impression he's doing it because he wants to trick you into having this, just that he wants to have these things and then reality conspires to prevent him doing so.

So what you described is a child? Anyone can (and does) come up with ridiculous off the wall ideas; the important thing is to not promise people things you know can't be done.

 

Also he's admitted to making **** up on the spot just to generate hype for his games; that's not someone getting too excited, it's someone who craves attention and publicity.

[Adhin]

What? I.. what? Priest isn't a male or female thing. Sorcerer 'is' male and female, Witch is male and female. None of the examples you throw out have a gender bias. Also, Barbarians? Class name is meant to be a descriptive of that characters combative leanings. Barbarian is generalized, Amazon is a culture. Vikings is... a word with in a culture we've started using as a title 'for' that culture and some of them 'maybe' Barbaric in how they fight but...

 

Anyway im gonna just blanketly state I disagree with the OP.

[Osvir]

 

If you are going to take the most basic view of him then yes, he does, but I've always read it more as he basically comes up with loads of ideas, gets very excited by them so has to tell someone, which might be a news outlet of some sort, and then he goes back into work and his artists and programmers are like "what the hell Peter? we can't do any of that stuff with our budget/time/resources!".  It's annoying sure, but I never get the impression he's doing it because he wants to trick you into having this, just that he wants to have these things and then reality conspires to prevent him doing so.

So what you described is a child? Anyone can (and does) come up with ridiculous off the wall ideas; the important thing is to not promise people things you know can't be done.

 

Also he's admitted to making **** up on the spot just to generate hype for his games; that's not someone getting too excited, it's someone who craves attention and publicity.

 

True. Not necessarily publicity, attention for sure ^^ I like to give attention too. I completely agree that it is important not to promise anything, but that doesn't mean you can't explore 150%. Perhaps there's 1% in that +50% that could be swapped with something in the 100%, the +50% could both be more complex or more simplistic than other ideas.

[JFSOCC]

Peter Molyneux hypes himself as much as anyone. I've read some interviews with him, he truly has that childlike enthusiasm. He believes it. Which I guess can be a good think. you got to feel passion for your creations after all.