Power of classes (Realism vs. Filling unlimited power)

[TMTVL]

What's it with all this anime talk? I thought this was gonna be a WRPG.

 

OT: Classes should be somewhat balanced, preferably all having a moderate "power level" so we don't have fighters who are useless at high levels and wizards who barely survive past level 1. Also, supernatural powers for all classes sounds fun, reminds me of the swordsage (and ilk) in 3.5 D&D.

[necromate]

Well, if you think about it basically every RPG is about DBZ style levelling. You start as a little village monkeyboy, gain some xp, and then suddenly eneregy ball/swordmastery/whatever. And then go to next village/cave/city/mountain and kill some more powerful ones, get more xp, throw lighting/devastating critical etc...

The only RPG I can think at the moment that broke with this stlye was Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I really enjoyed that you only got XP for completing objectives, you could decide your methods, weather you would sneak past enemies or sloughter them, use seduction, intimidation or reasoning to get what you wanted. SAME reward or maybe even bonus xp for not killing anyone.

 

And basically what this thread is about is power balance between you and your enemies. I'm pretty sure everyone here likes Baldur's Gate, NWN, etc... well after lvl15 you can be rather godlike, slaying dragons etc. But your enemies match you in power (DBZ style) and that challenge makes you entertained. Those who say they want to be weak and want a really really really challenging game well, I did not want to be this specific, but: TURN THE F***ING DIFFICULTY TO NIGHTMARE! Thank you.

 

Of course I do not want a game where I can be as powerful as in DBZ, but considering how powerful legendary mages are in D&D ( like Halaster who created Undermountain in The Hordes of The Underdark and ruled over all of it's creatures with his magic) I want to be at least a fair challenges for them (with my party or alone if I choose soloing). And sometimes I want some fools for breakfast, who do not know who I am, just to see how far I have come from the village monkeyboy :D

Edited December 16, 2012 by necromate

[Lephys]

What's it with all this anime talk? I thought this was gonna be a WRPG.

 

*shrug*... I made a Dragonball joke, because the Dragonball universe followed the tiniest crumb of power-balancing rules for a game (there should always be a challenge, however powerful you are), and I don't think people got the idea that I thought DBZ, in its entirety, would be the perfect model for balancing P:E. Heh.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Lephys

[JFSOCC]

edit nvm.

Edited December 17, 2012 by JFSOCC

[AGX-17]

What's it with all this anime talk? I thought this was gonna be a WRPG.

 

*shrug*... I made a Dragonball joke, because the Dragonball universe followed the tiniest crumb of power-balancing rules for a game (there should always be a challenge, however powerful you are), and I don't think people got the idea that I thought DBZ, in its entirety, would be the perfect model for balancing P:E. Heh.

 

But DB is more like an MMO where every area/dungeon is 100 levels above your level when you finish the current one, so you have to spend 100 years grinding to be on the same level as the enemies in the next area/dungeon.

Edited December 17, 2012 by AGX-17

[Lephys]

The only -- ONLY, mind you -- valid thing to take from the DB universe is that, no matter how ridiculously imbalanced and terrible the rest of the whole setup is, they always make sure there's a challenge. Everything else about the DB universe only supported humor, in regards to any kind of cRPG systems. Haha. It was pretty poorly executed as itself, much less as a game's mechanics.

[Adhin]

I wouldn't say the 'only' thing. I mean, ultimately the power they use in DBZ is the same as PE (sort of). The idea of manifesting your energy, or the energy produced from your soul, to great an energy ball that explodes when you throw it is a nifty idea. But it's not really unique to DBZ either so... yeah. Always having something that's a challenge regardless of lvl is a good thing to take from it - that and they always had weaker crap to show how far Goku had come.

 

-edit-

The power to blow up planets with said energy balls... bad for an RPG really. Should be left up to freakishly ancient rituals that your attempting to stop (or get going).

Edited December 18, 2012 by Adhin

[Lephys]

^ True. I suppose I should have said "the only thing pertinent to this topic." 8P

 

Although... maybe we should just have a hyperbolic time chamber in the stronghold, and the ability to alter gravity! 8D. Because that wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Shadowless]

I wish to be a weakling at start and moderately powerful on my own at the end (as in the PC only not companions) except I want my magic missle wannabe and sleep to progress to omgwtfbbq levels of power.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Shadowless

[Stiler]

To me I think each player class should have both strengths and weaknesses, with each having high level/top tier "amazing" abilities that really make you stand out as an exceptional character within your class once you get there that is.

 

As far as supernatural abilities, I think those should not be restricted to mages, rather open to other people as well. I really want to play a magic melee fighter based type of character. A sort of battle mage or such.

[Adhin]

@Lephys: Hah yeah, nothing like a freakishly white infinite space room where time is extremely stretched to allow you to get years of training in in a short time frame.

 

-edit-

As far as the whole fighters in MMO's and fighter types with supernatural like abilities. My biggest issue literally sits more with how it often looks vs actually having active skills. Fighter skills shouldn't have flashy graphics unless it's literally explained in some manner. Though I think Barb/Fighter should be less flash in general, should mostly be internal oriented soul stuff. I love my anime, I love the idea of flinging energy stuffs at things via your fists or swords but... yeah, I wouldn't mind some of that but that sounds like more of some kinda Mage/Fighter combo or some special requirement Fighter talents.

 

Not sure how they'd go about that but I'd rather it not be a primary part of the class, but some off line that either requires a class combo (if they allow that) or stat requirements or whatever to allow said weapon-flinging explosive soul bolts. Doubt they'll do any of that though, I just hope something that enhances strength or doubles your dmg for a short time cause RAWR SOUL MAKE HULK STRONG doesn't equal crazy ass glow and sparkles like your some fake-day-vampire of a mage.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Adhin

[Adauli]

I want to play a Hero not Joe Average in a RPG and towards the end even powerfull Moster should fall with 7 hits or less. I absolut hate it if a fight goes on for more then 50 turns.

Where is the fun if you fight the same enemy for half a hour or even longer?For me the story is important and not the fights related to the story. If a game have fights in it where I only can manage 1 fight in a half a hour or even longer then I consider it a extrem bad RPG game that wastes my time when I only manage this single fight during the time I could play the game on this day.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Adauli

[necromate]

I want to play a Hero not Joe Average in a RPG and towards the end even powerfull Moster should fall with 7 hits or less. I absolut hate it if a fight goes on for more then 50 turns.

Where is the fun if you fight the same enemy for half a hour or even longer?For me the story is important and not the fights related to the story. If a game have fights in it where I only can manage 1 fight in a half a hour or even longer then I consider it a extrem bad RPG game that wastes my time when I only manage this single fight during the time I could play the game on this day.

 

I think the term you are searching for is Action RPG. PE will be based on infinity engine games to a cirtain extent, that exludes Diablo like gameplay, go play torchlight or diablo... BTW I dont remember any single fight being longer than a few minutes in any D&D based game I have ever played (maybe bossfights). It's true that sometimes as you go dungeon crawling an awful lot of time goes by with killing enemies till you advance in the story/quest. Even in level... I'd like to be able too see a more subtle progression, not the "I gain XP, me lvl up, just 2 mo' wolf". Something inbetween TES, VtM:B and Fable 1. I love the idea when you can pour "XP" directly into your ablities and only get major xp for completeing objectives/bossfights. In VtM:B I loved that you did not have a specific lvl, just abilites/skills. You have a feeling: "good, now I got a little closer to being powerful" and not the "omg, I'll lvl up soon and THEN I'll be more powerful"

 

I would be more than happy to welcome half hour bossfights, if they are tactical, and you have to use your brain a little.(Queen Morag in NWN, a few fights in Dungeon Siege 2 etc)

[Adhin]

I would... never want half hour boss fights. MMO I've had some fun with it but then I had 30-ish other people to talk to and laugh with over the 20-30 minute boss fights. Diablo they don't really last that long unless your severely under leveled but they definitely last longer then any DnD stuff. But it usually just comes down to absurd HP totals and you spamming a single skill or 2 as you run around like a mad man till the boss eventually dies.

 

Only way I could see enjoying an actual 30 minute (5-10 minutes I can see) boss fight in a single player game would be for the boss fight to be in stages, and it to have save points between stages. And I'm not talking about it just shifting in front of you. I mean you have a 5-10 min fight, then it escapes (maybe into a secondary form) and you finish it off later in another 5-10 minute fight after you catch up with it again.

 

I mean, 30 minutes for a single player game... that would have to be one entertaining fight to not drag on.

[JFSOCC]

I mean, 30 minutes for a single player game... that would have to be one entertaining fight to not drag on.

tense

 

but I hope not every fight is tense, since I suspect there will be a lot of fights.

[Quadrone]

Wow, this must be the most laid back forum I've ever been to...

I'm not a grammar-nazi in any way but no one is even saying a word at all? Goddamn!

[Tamerlane]

We made fun of it very briefly.

[Sacred_Path]

I'm not a grammar-nazi

so what kind of Nazi are you then? ô.ô

 

I'm for a bit of realism, that is relatively short battles and no big masses of foes (except at a higher level where you spend relatively many buffs and one-use items). I think it's immsenly satisfying if you can severely hurt a foe by just hitting two times with the crossbow or gun. OTOH I'm not sure I want the same to happen to my characters often There's probably a reason why enemies in Darklands practically never carried heavy crossbows or guns.

[Darkpriest]

I think that BG series got it right. If you plan to make a series out of this (trilogy?) then do not let us reach the godly powers in the first game.. I won't mind world shattering powers in grand finalle in the third game after hundreds of gameplay

[TMTVL]

On the other hand, you could... NOT make a series out of it, or at least not a protagonist-transmissive series (the Divine Divinity series, as well as Spidweb's Exile/Avernum series are good examples of the latter).

[Adhin]

BG is actually a kind of awkward example due to the A/2E rule set. 2E was literally a 1-10 game. BG2 going past 10 was mostly just because they needed growth, you didn't really gain much for going past 10 up till you got into the expansion stuff with epic skils stuff that was pretty heavily influenced by 3E stuff (like Barb/Monk class where). I mean your health heavily stints at lvl 10, 1-9 is the main HP growth then its all 2 or 3 + bonus.

 

Beyond that higher you go up, the longer it takes. Pretty sure they'll go for a lower level limit then compared to an ARPG like diablo or something, probably 1-20. And as fun as carrying your character through games is, I also enjoy just completely new ones. BG1-2 kinda got lucky with how they did that, partly cause BG1 has so many characters they didn't really do anything with that BG2 had a lot of growing room for some of em while adding in a few new ones.

 

I mean look at PST, if they made a second one I don't even know what they'd do. Continue the story? From which ending, and would any of the old party members make sense to show up again? Not that anyone can really make a sequel, DnD dropped the planescape setup years ago but.. yeah. A BG3 as Obsidian (back when they where the true Black Isle) was going to be a completely fresh start for the player character, completely new guy and just touching on past events kind of thing.

 

That right there is what I'd like to see to be honest, new PC, some returning characters, few years later touching on past events as a new story unfolds. That and once you get into a more complex leveling system like 3E or what PE will have in comparison to 2nd Edition which was as basic as it gets, a few lvls tends to leave a lot to be desired. I 'love' building characters, I like coming up with an odd ball concept and figuring out the most effective way to make the character even if hes gimped. 5-10 lvls is rarely enough to really dig into that stuff and often feels a bit hollow. Only reason it works in 2E is because there is no character building past starting stats, just static, extremely basic lvl progression that usually brings nothing but HP and 'maybe' some THAC0 drop.

[Adauli]

I think the term you are searching for is Action RPG. PE will be based on infinity engine games to a cirtain extent, that exludes Diablo like gameplay, go play torchlight or diablo...

Ohh my Good never, never ever!! I don't say I hate Action RPGs but they are just dumbed down RPGs many are not even RPGs in my opinion at all as the complet caractersystem is droped out and instead they just live from item hunting what can be fun for a vew hour but thats it for me. (I played trough Diablo 2 once and for Titan Quest I not even saw the end)

If you play a combat tactical then do you realy want to fight for 50 turns? Its one thing if you bash 50 times on the mousebutton with a hit each second or so but if you think about each move then 50 turns get to long for a single fight! From a RPG point it means if your weapons hit for 1d10 what means 5.5 dmg in average with a party of 4 people the oponents must have over 1000 HP! I don't know a single Pen and Paper RPG that drags the fights for this long and where the player them self have a Hp to dmg ration that let them go on for this long for "just" a single fight.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Adauli

[Adhin]

Heh, funny, but D2, 2000, had a more complex 'character' system then 2nd Edition had. Unless you start counting the sea of 'class kits' that attempted to change that. Granted it was light on the actual roleplay aspect but as far as building a character Diablo 2 beat the turds outa 2nd edition. Now 3E, that was a thing of sheer beauty... but it also came out a year or 2 later. D2 has a good feel to it, control wise, but the way they handle there skills and general gameplay leads to a lot of mindless spam which is where the real issues start to kick in for me.

 

As for 1k hp, outside of epic levels 1k HP is asking a good bit from a party (depending on lvl). Now my epic lvl Barb/Psion could handle far more then that but he has about 1k hp enraged so he doesn't count, hes a goddamn monster and has no business being in any real PnP like campaigns. That said no fighter is gonna only be doing 5.5 dmg unless hes finesse and heavy DEX/AC based, and by lvl 11 has 3 attacks. First 2 of which generally hit with relatively high percentages. I remember doing the math for a lvl 20 fighter with 24 str vs a Balor (35 ac) and the general 4 attacks a fighter has and the BAB totals that involves with proper equipment. Basically game down to 95/80/55/40... anyway point is you usually always hit with 2, about half the time you hit with 3, sometimes hit all 4. That's also about 20 damage per hit on average, so more like 60 damage per turn. That's not counting critical hits or the like but that's a hell of a lot more then 5.5 dmg a turn. Basic 3E stuff, and Balors I think have closer to 300 hp, its the energy resist and spells that really kill.

[kenup]

What I want is challenge and balance, regardless of power level. I don't care whether I am supposed to be on an average city guard's level or a god slayer's level. As long as the setting and story support it and there is balance and challenge up to the endgame, it's fine(for example: don't give us average bandits to fight, if we are at "high" levels).

 

The only real thing I don't want on the subject, is to be able to max everything. Being good(not perfect necessarily) at more than one thing is fine, being good at most or all things/skills is not.

Edited December 22, 2012 by kenup

[TMTVL]

The game WILL have more then just combat, you know?

 

If one of the PC's could end up brokering a peace between two nations or something it would be cool, but I kinda feel that's just too much power to give the player. On the other hand, Arcanum kinda pulled it off, so maybe it could work.