Sexism?

[Agelastos]

A matriarchal society doesn't have to be misandric. Just like a patriarchal society doesn't have to misogynistic.

 

Except that's exactly what I was talking about. And when I said 'old' I did not mean 'not contemporary'.

 

But for the sake of argument... I think if you play out gender inequality in a game there's no way to not make it a bit demeaning in nature, otherwise the whole thing doesn't affect the player. If you want to portray an archaic patriarchal society it just begs to express views like 'women aren't built for physical labour or warfare, so they must be kept in the house' (and I'm not even going to argue if that is truly misogynistic, that's semantics).

 

You still haven't explained what makes it a sci-fi trope rather than a fantasy trope, and/or why it would be wrong for P.E. (even if it's just one out of many cultures represented in the game). Please explain!

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[Domigorgon]

I think you're onto something here. If Obsidian really doesn't fear to tackle mature themes, then maybe they should give the player ample oportunities to do some really vile stuff. Most roleplaying games don't let you do much on the evil side aside from lying, killing, and being an **** (KOTOR comes to mind, where you could become a Sith Lord from simply behaving like a spoiled brat - if the proverbial spoiled brat was given Force powers and a lightsaber). Fallout 3 also wouldn't let you kill kids. I never even tried doing that until I read somewhere that you couldn't. I mean, killing hundreds (thousands!) of anything that moves is OK, but not one single kid? Not even Princess from Little Lamplight? On that note, most games don't even bother to include kids (probably because they all agree that there is no point to include anything that you cannot kill).

 

I'm veering off-topic and I know it, but I would like to point out that it would be grand if Project: Eternity could (at least in some small part) allow us to play sophisticated archvillains (Xanatos) rather than just another chaotic evil butcher. I always found that aspect somewhat lacking in most video games.

 

As for the sexism thing... I am constantly reminded of the 'female armour' as discussed in some previous topics. Should the devs strive for realism, I hope they avoid armour cleavage and chainmail bikinis.

[Sacred_Path]

You still haven't explained what makes it a sci-fi trope rather than a fantasy trope, and/or why it would be wrong for P.E. (even if it's just one out of many cultures represented in the game). Please explain!

 

I didn't say it's wrong for PE, in my first post I quite clearly said I don't really care about gender (in)equality in PE. I was asking if it's not more of a sci-fi trope because I haven't encountered it in fantasy books (which I read) as much as I've seen it referred to in sci-fi books/ movies (which I don't read/ watch).

[Dream]

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

Well, personally, I want P:E to be a fun video game and not the next champion of the "games are art" crowd; leave that **** to pretentious indie developer douche bags like Jonathan Blow.

[Agelastos]

 

I didn't say it's wrong for PE, in my first post I quite clearly said I don't really care about gender (in)equality in PE. I was asking if it's not more of a sci-fi trope because I haven't encountered it in fantasy books (which I read) as much as I've seen it referred to in sci-fi books/ movies (which I don't read/ watch).

Ah, okay!

[Agelastos]

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

Well, personally, I want P:E to be a fun video game and not the next champion of the "games are art" crowd; leave that **** to pretentious indie developer douche bags like Jonathan Blow.

 

Why does rape = artsy pretentiousness? It could be used to tell emotionally raw and poignant stories, or just to illustrate the horrors of war.

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

As long as it isn't used in a gratuitous way just to make the game "dark and edgy"...

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[Sacred_Path]

Why does rape = artsy pretentiousness? It could be used to tell emotionally raw and poignant stories, or just to illustrate the horrors of war.

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

 

isn't that a sexploitation trope...

 

that's all folks!

[Agelastos]

Why does rape = artsy pretentiousness? It could be used to tell emotionally raw and poignant stories, or just to illustrate the horrors of war.

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

 

isn't that a sexploitation trope...

 

that's all folks!

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[PrimeJunta]

Dark fantasy is really hard to do well, though. Most of the time it just turns into dork fantasy. (See: Origins, Dragon Age.)

[Ieo]

Let's keep it focused then. Sexism is something I hadn't really heard discussed in the "maturity" threads, but I did see people posting "realistic female armour" with the assumption that a woman in armour would be a common sight in this game.

 

That's because when it's mentioned, people invariably mix sexism up with a whole bunch of other things based on unspoken assumptions and neither self-awareness nor social awareness (I'm speaking academically at this point). The immediate assumption in the OP and by other posters was "sexism" in the purely anti-female sense; subsequent discussion added the other potential side, but that's a distinct afterthought. It's also just the nature of a gaming forum--it's impossible for certain topics to stay focused.

 

For example, rape in our real world is usually the height of misogyny as a crime only against women, but no one seems to recognize thusly that there is no equivalent, socially "accepted" version against males either*. Have you not noticed that it's merely an accepted "oh well, it happens IRL so it should be in the game" from the perspective of male gamers, and really the main people who would be "squeamish" are female players? Yet their views have traditionally been seen as inconsequential in the gaming industry unless a game title is specifically marketed to them. Misandry doesn't exist at that level (no, murder doesn't count because that's equal opportunity).

 

At the same time, we do expect a level of subversion in PE, and it cannot be entirely "realistic" either for a number of reasons on the mechanical and/or player side (like lack of armored women because there were like three in the European Middle Ages)--what constitutes fantasy, what mechanics work with player enjoyment, what's appropriately mature versus dark for the sake of rating. The question then becomes, "To what extent can/should PE mirror our-world inequities and to what extent can/should they be subverted?"

 

Basically, I'm interested in any social inequity that is "equal opportunity," identifiable for the inequity it is yet quite possibly subverted for a fresh perspective or a rare historical truth (blacks enslaving whites), even in a classical fantasy setting: fictional races, slavery of multiple races, cultures covering differing political systems, societies covering unique mores, religious persecution, rape of boys/men by another race, etc.

 

 

* The cases of boy-rape against church leaders and the likes of Dahmer and Sandusky are notorious to another level and their treatment by society is a topic for different book.

[Pipyui]

Not much to contribute here, but to me the question here shouldn't be interpreted as "Should PE include elements of sexism because realism?" and should be interpreted "Should PE make a point to avoid sexism (and other touchy subjects)?" and my answer is of course a big "No."

I don't particularly care whether or not society in PE practices sexism, so long as the narrative choice made here is consistent with the feelings of an organic society. I don't want the devs to go out of their way to fit it in, and I certainly don't want them to go out of their way to cut it out.

 

Whether or not society practices sexism though, I do like the idea of granting the PC sexist dialogue options for roleplaying purposes, whether they be male or female.

[Elerond]

 

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

As long as it isn't used in a gratuitous way just to make the game "dark and edgy"...

 

In my opinion first is only sub group of the second. I haven't seen any revenge rape quests in any media, they are usually just trying to be dark and edgy and rape don't actually add anything else than easy dark start to story, These kind of cheap motivations and quest should be avoided if there isn't very good reason add them.

[SophosTheWise]

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

Well, personally, I want P:E to be a fun video game and not the next champion of the "games are art" crowd; leave that **** to pretentious indie developer douche bags like Jonathan Blow.

 

Off topic here: I seriously dislike that American anti-intellectualism. I see no reason, why Braid was pretentious, just because it tried something different, just because Blow tried to express his views on life the way he did. But that's somehow typical for our time, when everything intellectual is automatically "hipster" or "pretentious". I'm tired of getting labelled as a "hipster" just because I like literature, or because I write poetry and read philosophy for fun or because I'm wearing hipster glasses (that I wear because of poor eye-sight and also because my literay heroes did - it's the same as people wearing their new-era-caps because of some hip hop stars). It seems that in our time, everything that contradicts pure consumerism, everything that actively tries to change conventions or to be different, an alternative tends to get labelled that way. It's the death of progression.

[Agelastos]

In my opinion first is only sub group of the second. I haven't seen any revenge rape quests in any media, they are usually just trying to be dark and edgy and rape don't actually add anything else than easy dark start to story, These kind of cheap motivations and quest should be avoided if there isn't very good reason add them.

 

The reason is to make you feel. To make you crave revenge because you care for the victim. Or at least want to help him/her through it (if your character doesn't believe in revenge).

In most games, they do that by killing off the character's parents or something like that. People you don't know and have probably never even met. It's nowhere near as poignant, and it's been done to death.

 

Why is it cheap? It's a pretty common plot in literature, both classical and contemporary. And in films. But for some reason, it seems to be taboo in games.

Sure, sometimes a character will hint at the fact that s/he was raped in the past, or a character is about to get raped when the hero rides in and saves him/her. But to actually have it happen during the game...? Apart from Phantasmagoria, I can't think of a single game (that isn't some stupid hentai game) in which a character is raped.

 

And it's not like they have to show it on screen.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[Sacred_Path]

Off topic here: I seriously dislike that American anti-intellectualism. I see no reason, why Braid was pretentious, just because it tried something different, just because Blow tried to express his views on life the way he did. But that's somehow typical for our time, when everything intellectual is automatically "hipster" or "pretentious". I'm tired of getting labelled as a "hipster" just because I like literature, or because I write poetry and read philosophy for fun or because I'm wearing hipster glasses (that I wear because of poor eye-sight and also because my literay heroes did - it's the same as people wearing their new-era-caps because of some hip hop stars). It seems that in our time, everything that contradicts pure consumerism, everything that actively tries to change conventions or to be different, an alternative tends to get labelled that way. It's the death of progression.

 

Do you show any other hipster characteristics? Do you have an eclectic taste in music? Do you favor eccentric movie directors? Do you take photographs of your food?

 

References to hipsters should totally be in PE. They're the group everyone loves to hate (yes, once upon a time that position was occupied by women)

[Voltaire]

I think some level of sexism would make the game more interesting, as long as it does not seriously impair a players choice of a male or female character. By that, I mean that any limitations of being a female in one case should be more or less balanced out by playing a male in another case. I would not want the game to reward (e.g. more total XP potential) if you played one gender vs the other. However, the more different the experiences and interactions are for each gender, the better the game and more reason for repeat play through. (And unfortunately more work for the writers).

[AGX-17]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly, in another it was reading that wasn't something men did. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

 

Of course this could all work the other way. We could also see matriarchal societies, where men are the ones facing discrimination.

 

I've only heard of two primate matriarchal societies: Some tribe/s on a southeast asian island (learned about in a cultural anthropology course and I forget the details beyond men never move out of their mother's house, and they act as fathers for their sisters' children if they have any, they don't conduct incest, but males never move in with their sexual partners oe live on their own and their children are "fathered" by the brothers of their sexual partners,) and the primate species Bonobos.

 

In the case of Bonobos, which are effectively a variant of Chimpanzee, and just as closely related to humans, females dominate the society. But it's not the domination of aggression that male Chimpanzees use (terror, violence,) it's that the females are a united front (refusing to submit, showing threat of force rather than force itself,) in curbing the aggression of the males (Bonobo males are just as aggressive as Chimps.) The second, more important, and more ironic method is through sexuality. Sex is the basic unit of social interaction in Bonobo society, every individual in a Bonobo social unit engages in sexual intercourse with every other, conflicts are resolved through sex acts rather than violence, and most importantly, because all the females have coupled with all the males, no male can take the risk of killing any offspring because there's no way to know who the father is. When a new Alpha chimp takes over, he'll kill all the young of the previous Alpha, like lions do to the cubs of a rival male after taking over a pride (sometimes they'll kill their own cubs, it's such a strong genetic imperative.)

 

This matriarchal society in nature doesn't function so much like patriarchy inverted, but more like the patriarchal ambitions of males curbed by coalitions of females. Another point of note is that when two different chimpanzee groups meet, it usually results in violence and possibly cannibalism, but you can probably guess what happens when groups of Bonobos meet. If you can't it's

an orgy that can last up to several days.

 

 

The structure of Bonobo society reinforces the idea that the more control of their own sexuality women have, the more sexually equal a society can/will become. This obviously doesn't apply exactly to humans due to the amount of time it takes for human offspring to reach maturity and contribute economically, as well as because of the individualistic nature of capitalism, with neoclassical/chicago/austrian school economists (who dominate the field with their irrational political dogma,) and conservative political pundits focusing on the ideal of the "nuclear family" and looking down on extended family cohabitation (another situation in which women tend to be more equal.) Food for thought, anyway.

 

At any rate, in a high-medieval/early renaissance setting, it would require mass female rebellion against the patriarchy to achieve some form of sexual equality, and it would require male allies to truly accomplish this. Highly unlikely without a printing press and some way to covertly spread this message to all women and formulate a plan.

Edited December 3, 2012 by AGX-17

[Elerond]

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

As long as it isn't used in a gratuitous way just to make the game "dark and edgy"...

 

In my opinion first is only sub group of the second. I haven't seen any revenge rape quests in any media, they are usually just trying to be dark and edgy and rape don't actually add anything else than easy dark start to story, These kind of cheap motivations and quest should be avoided if there isn't very good reason add them.

 

The reason is to make you feel. To make you crave revenge because you care for the victim. Or at least want to help him/her through it (if your character doesn't believe in revenge).

In most games, they do that by killing off the character's parents or something like that. People you don't know and have probably never even met. It's nowhere near as poignant, and it's been done to death.

 

Why is it cheap? It's a pretty common plot in literature, both classical and contemporary. And in films. But for some reason, it seems to be taboo in games.

Sure, sometimes a character will hint at the fact that s/he was raped in the past, or a character is about to get raped when the hero rides in and saves him/her. But to actually have it happen during the game...? Apart from Phantasmagoria, I can't think of a single game in which a character is raped (that isn't some stupid hentai game).

 

It's common plot device in literature because it is easy way to motivate character and don't need any imagination from writer. And it is common in games too, for example in dragon age there is several rapes and even plot for revenge for rape (dispute between werewolfs and elves). And dragon age is not only one. Graphical rape is not so common, but some games have even that. But graphical rape is just explanation which should be avoided in all serious works (my opinion), because it really don't add anything to game/s.

[Agelastos]

 

 

Some tribe/s on a southeast asian island (learned about in a cultural anthropology course and I forget the details beyond men never move out of their mother's house, and they act as fathers for their sisters' children if they have any, they don't conduct incest, but males never move in with their sexual partners oe live on their own and their children are "fathered" by the brothers of their sexual partners,)

 

 

The Trobriand Islands? Papua New Guinea? Vanuatu?

[Sacred_Path]

Those bonobos sound suspiciously like elves.

[Dream]

Why does rape = artsy pretentiousness? It could be used to tell emotionally raw and poignant stories, or just to illustrate the horrors of war.

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

As long as it isn't used in a gratuitous way just to make the game "dark and edgy"...

 

I guess that making an "emotionally raw and poignant story" is impossible without rape, right?

 

And rape is ALWAYS used in a gratuitous way to make something "dark and edgy," name one time it wasn't (and casual references like Reavers raping people to death don't count).

 

Off topic here: I seriously dislike that American anti-intellectualism. I see no reason, why Braid was pretentious, just because it tried something different, just because Blow tried to express his views on life the way he did. But that's somehow typical for our time, when everything intellectual is automatically "hipster" or "pretentious". I'm tired of getting labelled as a "hipster" just because I like literature, or because I write poetry and read philosophy for fun or because I'm wearing hipster glasses (that I wear because of poor eye-sight and also because my literay heroes did - it's the same as people wearing their new-era-caps because of some hip hop stars). It seems that in our time, everything that contradicts pure consumerism, everything that actively tries to change conventions or to be different, an alternative tends to get labelled that way. It's the death of progression.

 

This is isn't about anti-intellectualism, it's about rape/racism/homophobia/other "mature and realistic" themes not being the only way to tell a good story. Not everything has some hidden agenda; some people just like to have fun and don't want to sacrifice that fun for the sake of "art."

 

Also Jonathan Blow is a pretentious douche bag because he says **** like “It just drives home how fictional money is” and "I’ve never liked money, really" while driving a $150,000 "green car."

[Agelastos]

 

It's common plot device in literature because it is easy way to motivate character and don't need any imagination from writer. And it is common in games too, for example in dragon age there is several rapes and even plot for revenge for rape (dispute between werewolfs and elves). And dragon age is not only one. Graphical rape is not so common, but some games have even that. But graphical rape is just explanation which should be avoided in all serious works (my opinion), because it really don't add anything to game/s.

 

I remember a revenge quest in the City Elf origin, where a human noble claims jus primae noctis and kidnaps you or your soon-to-be wife. But you rode in and saved the day before anything even happened. And you didn't have time to get to know the would-be-victims before the quest.

I don't remember anything about a rape in the Brecilian Forest. Did it happen before you even got there? Didn't happen to your or one of your companions, anyway, so it's not the same thing.

 

Graphical rape doesn't have to pornographic. It could just be a short cutscene that fades to black before anything really happens.

Yes, implied rape is pretty common, but it's rarely used to move the plot forward. Usually it's just there to showcase how dark and gritty the setting is, and that's exactly what I don't want. And there are plenty of good examples of rape in literature. I don't see how it's any less imaginative than murder is.

[Hormalakh]

These posts make me sad for how much many of them lack depth in detailing disparities in gender among cultures. I don't want a game where just if men =/= women then EVIL. There are more cultural truths out there in the world than what you, the player, are exposed to in your own culture.

 

Sexism is, sometimes, only what you perceive it as, from an outsider looking in. Many times these ideas themselves are by-products of other cultural movements (women's right to vote, WWII women being able to work, feminism) that have ultimately defined certain ideas/actions "sexist." This isn't to say that there aren't evils being done in the world and that some of these run in the "sexist" department. But the point that I'm trying to make is that these ideas/actions/cultures are more complex than a single theme of "sexism." To create cultures that are based on a singular trope, as it were, would be folly and, frankly, an insult to the intelligence of most culturally-aware adults.

 

To further illustrate my point, here is some real-life cultural clashes that are perceived as sexism and oppression to those who look at things from a singular point of view.

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Felithvian]

Part of what makes characters like Brienne in SoIF or Joan of Arc interesting, is all the adversity they have had to overcome to be considered an equal by men in a sexist time.

 

We cannot accept a mere supposition unsupported by any document. Armor was not viewed as exclusively "male" in that era, any more than a bullet-proof vest is exclusively "male".

 

Another, more innocent, misconception is the notion that Joan of Arc was a "feminist", a label which is not only an anachronism but is also called into question by her own comments, which seem to indicate that she preferred sewing, weaving, and other "womanly duties"; and she boasted that she could rival any woman with a needle and spindle. When asked why she wasn't doing such "womanly duties" in late 1429 and early 1430, she merely replied (with her usual matter-of-factness) that there were an abundant number of other women who were already doing such tasks. These comments would not seem to reflect a "feminist philosophy" (a feminist would presumably call for an end to such roles for women rather than embracing them with such enthusiasm).

Edited December 3, 2012 by Felithvian

[Osvir]

To be real..

 

Rape in literature is like enjoying "not enjoying" it. To give a reason for vengeance or anger in the player because the character gets somehow in some way emotionally attached. If you are the one doing it in the game to someone as the player character then, then I don't know, then it is bad design. Even if you make a cruel character intent to be utterly evil and it could be authentic to the setting I just feel that is taking it too far (for the player character).

 

As an indication, something we figure out by ourselves and decides what to do with it (passive or aggressive reaction/morality) is more feasible when the villager chick is distressed, afraid and doesn't seem to like our approach (no matter how kind we may seem to be). Something traumatizing, blegh, I don't even want to think about it.

 

Doesn't mean I like it, but there are times in video games where I get emotionally attached to characters (or in books) and I get so pissed off when something unfair happens to any of these attached characters (doesn't necessarily have to be rape). It really makes a story better though, with this element. I think this falls into the category of "Frustration", and getting your hands on that master sword only to have it slip to your fingers and down a drain never to be seen again is also part of this.

 

Whatever abuse or unfairness anyone receives (male or female). I don't like it, but it could be necessary for the "journey" and the narrative. Darkness of the Soul should be as apparent as the Darkness of the Fog. And it comes in many different forms.

 

"Postal" manages to pull it off but "Postal: Running with Scissors" is f- up by default (I had fun with it, because it felt undramatic and more of a joke).

 

On male and female~ oh well I don't know what to do with it.

 

* Human

* Aumaua

* Orlan

* Elf

* Dwarf

* Godlike

 

There'd probably be different branches (factions) in each of these as well. Let's say 2 factions in each Race and maybe 1 minor faction. Perhaps even an external faction that is open to all races (multi-cultural). A neutral faction where everyone is welcome.

 

How would male/female play out in these different cultures/factions?

Edited December 3, 2012 by Osvir