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And I quote " I'm not a fire-fly expert so I can't really comment". Imo saying somebody is a "Slayer"or "rofl genetic engineering", to somehow make up for their total lack of muscle mass or martial training is a pretty crummy explanation( and why I don't like Joss Whedon's stuff) but Whedon does at least try to explain it(sort of), so it's irrelevant. I'm not debating fire-fly fluff with you, It was a general example.

 

All of Whedon's stuff is tongue-in-cheek, though. He's constantly lampshading and playing the tropes associated with the genre (horror/vampire fiction for Buffy, Western and Space Opera for Firefly, etc.) for laughs. So if you find something in his shows to be over-the-top or just ridiculous, then that was probably his intent.

His shows are like porn to us B-movie fans.

 

Sorry! I know you didn't want to talk about Whedon, but I couldn't help myself.

Edited by Agelastos
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No they are both fine, what isn't is unexplained incongruities with the real world. This thread was originally about sexism/realism remember? Not firefly. I am explaining to you the difference between realistic fantasy, and unrealistic fantasy, you are changing the subject to whether firefly is better than Game of Thrones. Which is just about the definition of missing the point.

 

I think they're both good, personally.

 

What I want to know is how River or Buffy are anymore incongruous with the real world than Daenerys since you're using GoT as an example of "good" fantasy and Firefly as an example of "bad." All three characters have their powers explained by a certain fantastic element (hell, River is the most "realistic" of the three).

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No they are both fine, what isn't is unexplained incongruities with the real world. This thread was originally about sexism/realism remember? Not firefly. I am explaining to you the difference between realistic fantasy, and unrealistic fantasy, you are changing the subject to whether firefly is better than Game of Thrones. Which is just about the definition of missing the point.

 

I think they're both good, personally.

 

What I want to know is how River or Buffy are anymore incongruous with the real world than Daenerys since you're using GoT as an example of "good" fantasy and Firefly as an example of "bad." All three characters have their powers explained by a certain fantastic element (hell, River is the most "realistic" of the three).

God I should have known better than to bring it up, okay guys I wanted to start a thread about themes of sexism in PE but I guess this thread is now about how awesome Joss Whedon is, so have at it.

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My main point in starting this thread was an interest in realistic "strong-woman" protagonists as opposed to the kind of thing you would see stumbling around in the Whedon-verse. (skinny, beautiful, young girl who can somehow beat up a roomful of enraged cannibals armed with swords an axes).

 

Your MAIN POINT was to say that those characters are "unrealistic" while using a character from a story that contained an equally "unrealistic" character as an example of an apparently good character.

 

Just answer the question of what's the difference between River's/Buffy's powers (and the explanations for them) and Daenerys' from a "realism" standpoint.

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Heyya, guys, New poster here, just want to go ahead and put in my own two cents.

 

The thing with things like Sexism, Racism, Jingoism, and such, is that if you don't give it the proper amount of gravity it needs, or just handle it badly, you're going to hurt the story. If you just mention it, or just say "Hey, go and make me a sandwich lady!", you're not really using those themes properly, and it just serves to make the players uncomfortable.

 

Now, I don't mean to say that being made to feel uncomfortable is necessarily a bad thing. We all need to feel uncomfortable, or feel offended every once in awhile. It's how we reevaluate our views, and see things from different perspectives. This however only works if you're actually trying to say something, or have a specific feeling you're trying to make the player, or consumer, feel.

 

However, in order to really get that feeling across, you've got to of experienced it in one way or an other. You can't talk about how sexism makes you feel, if you've never really experienced it. You, as a man, might be able to empathize with a woman who feels objectified by a group of **** making cat calls or what ever the hell, but you can't say you understand it like she does, unless you've been there yourself. And, as men, that sort of thing happens a lot less to us, which makes us a lot less sensitive to how someone in that position feels.

 

As for racism, that’s something that’s completely gender neutral, and its a topic that should also be treated with respect. For example,

 

And women in Saudi Arabia having acid thrown into their faces for going to school? Would you say that's sexist, or is it just my western perception that makes me think that's horrible?

 

See, the racism here stems from the fact that Jezz (who by the way I've seen make a number of good posts, but that’s not here nor there) has no idea what the hell he's talking about, and makes massive assumptions about a very large group of people who are culturally very different from him. First off, that’s a mashup of two different stories, both of which showcased some complete nutcases, and not the entire region themselves. Jezz may not of meant to of implied that somehow all of the middleeast hates women and wants to dump acid on them, but the fact that this was the first thing he could think of when he saw that previous image shows at least a hint of racism.

 

I don't mean to pick on Jezz in particular; it’s just that the thing about racism is how creeping it really is. If Obsidian managed to get the subtlety in racism that makes it so dangerous down (Which I'm sure they could do), then they should go for it, but if all they manage is "Man, I'm a Dwarf and I hate dem elves!" they're missing the subtlety of the racism, and it will serve as nothing but to belittle the setting.

 

And I think thats the main thing it should come down to. If Obsidian is able to give these themes the attentions they deserve, than they should be in, otherwise leave it out or risk hurting the setting.

 

Err.. My two Cents, also, Sorry again Jezz for picking on you.

Edited by Zenning
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Err.. My two Cents, also, Sorry again Jezz for picking on you.

 

None taken, pick on me all you wan't. I'm not really sure were the "massive assumptions" come in here, the acid attacks thing is not a mashup of two stories, it's many stories of literally women having acid thrown at them for trying to go to school, look it up. I wasn't implying that all Arabic people are sexist or anything like that (nor would I ever) and I don't really consider it a racial issue, unless you consider Islam a race. My main point in that post was that I object to Hormalakh's point that sexism is culturally relative, especially in the example he gave. He's not the only one to think that of course, but I think it's kind of hog-wash. Women are forced to wear burkha's nobody forces women in America to wear bikini's.

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My main point in starting this thread was an interest in realistic "strong-woman" protagonists as opposed to the kind of thing you would see stumbling around in the Whedon-verse. (skinny, beautiful, young girl who can somehow beat up a roomful of enraged cannibals armed with swords an axes).

 

Your MAIN POINT was to say that those characters are "unrealistic" while using a character from a story that contained an equally "unrealistic" character as an example of an apparently good character.

 

Just answer the question of what's the difference between River's/Buffy's powers (and the explanations for them) and Daenerys' from a "realism" standpoint.

 

Sides... Splitting... River is the ultimate unrealistic "girl-power, hurr durr" stereotype, she's an uber-feminine adolescent with poorly explained super powers that allow her to beat up men. By contrast, GrrM's female characters, if they are powerful, are that way for a reason, whether it's skill, intellect or physical might.

 

In reality, the sorts of "strong women" you see in anime or whedon's ****e are just fan services for male-feminist mouth breathers to wank over.

 

See, the racism here stems from the fact that Jezz (who by the way I've seen make a number of good posts, but that’s not here nor there) has no idea what the hell he's talking about, and makes massive assumptions about a very large group of people who are culturally very different from him. First off, that’s a mashup of two different stories, both of which showcased some complete nutcases, and not the entire region themselves. Jezz may not of meant to of implied that somehow all of the middleeast hates women and wants to dump acid on them, but the fact that this was the first thing he could think of when he saw that previous image shows at least a hint of racism.

 

I actually know someone (friend of a friend) who works with advocacy group for victims of acid burn attacks, mostly Saudis and Yemenis IIRC and I can tell you that you're talking out your ass. The perpetrators of the attacks aren't crazy, they're misogynistic religious fundamentalists. The biggest issue that womens advocates in the mid-east have to deal with is the fact that those cultures tacitly condone such attacks, since they see the women as having transgressed in the first place by having the audacity to work or attend school. Condemning that sort of injustice is anything but racist.

 

/Digression over.

Edited by Mandragore
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In reality, the sorts of "strong women" you see in anime or whedon's ****e are just fan services for male-feminist mouth breathers to wank over.

 

Haha! Whedon is revered by (female) feminists around the globe for his portrayal of strong women, and there's even a field of Gender Studies called "Buffy Studies" at some universities. :p

Edited by Agelastos
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By contrast, GrrM's female characters, if they are powerful, are that way for a reason, whether it's skill, intellect or physical might.

 

Or the "blood of the dragon," which, I ask again, is different how, exactly, from being a Slayer or having been enhanced with future tech (at least River's powers have some basis in science)? Unless you're telling us that magic in your blood making you fireproof is reasonable but magic in your blood making you super strong is not; in which case I can TOTALLY see where you're coming from.

 

Like I said earlier; I'm a fan of both, but saying that one is more "realistic" than the other is a bit ridiculous.

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By contrast, GrrM's female characters, if they are powerful, are that way for a reason, whether it's skill, intellect or physical might.

 

Or the "blood of the dragon," which, I ask again, is different how, exactly, from being a Slayer or having been enhanced with future tech (at least River's powers have some basis in science)? Unless you're telling us that magic in your blood making you fireproof is reasonable but magic in your blood making you super strong is not; in which case I can TOTALLY see where you're coming from.

 

Like I said earlier; I'm a fan of both, but saying that one is more "realistic" than the other is a bit ridiculous.

 

You dissembling a bit there, Buffy and River can beat up large numbers of male opponents totally at odds with their physical appearance, that's whats unrealistic (in the sense of hurting verisimilitude). Denerys, who looks as feminine as either Buffy or River, can't beat up anyone and her one fantastic ability is based on magic, not physicality.

 

If a female character is going to be killing her opponents with fireballs and such that's one thing, but if she's swinging a sword around she should at least look the part. My point is that I don't really want any fetishized "skinny girl with giant sword" anime BS in the game. let the sorceress and the rogue be sexy, the female fighter should be a be a competent, intimidating hardass.

 

there's even a field of Gender Studies called "Buffy Studies" at some universities. :p

 

The horror...

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there's even a field of Gender Studies called "Buffy Studies" at some universities. :p

 

The horror...

 

It's more about the depth and inner strength of his female characters than it is about their fighting abilities, though.

Edited by Agelastos

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself! Apart from pain... and maybe humiliation. And obviously death and failure. But apart from fear, pain, humiliation, failure, the unknown and death, we have nothing to fear but fear itself!"

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You dissembling a bit there, Buffy and RIver can beat up large numbers of male opponents totally at odds with their physical appearance, that's whats unrealistic (in the sense of hurting verisimilitude). Denerys, who looks as feminine as either Buffy or River, can't beat up anyone and her one fantastic ability is based on magic, not physicality.

 

If a female character is going to be killing her opponents with fireballs and such that's one thing, but if she's swinging a sword around she should at least look the part. My point is that I don't really want any fetishized "skinny girl with giant sword" anime BS in the game. let the sorceress and the rogue be sexy, the female fighter should be a be a competent, intimidating hardass.

 

Except Daenerys being able withstand an inferno is totally at odds with her physical appearance of being a human. How is a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one strong out of the question but a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one fireproof is not (after all, improved strength is a staple spell in fantasy right up there with fire protection)?

 

Also you say that the rogue should be sexy, but then what is the problem with River since that's basically what she is. She was strong, yes, but not unreasonably so (not like Buffy or Faith); she was simply very fast, extremely skilled, and telepathic (so she could predict her opponents moves). Besides that, who knows what kind of technology is available in the future that would allow one to alter the muscle density of a human (which, again, is a hell of a lot more realistic than "magical blood makes you fireproof").

 

Edit: Really when you think about it you're the sexist one here because in your mind the only women that should be allowed to fight are giant butch she-men.

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Err.. My two Cents, also, Sorry again Jezz for picking on you.

 

None taken, pick on me all you wan't. I'm not really sure were the "massive assumptions" come in here, the acid attacks thing is not a mashup of two stories, it's many stories of literally women having acid thrown at them for trying to go to school, look it up. I wasn't implying that all Arabic people are sexist or anything like that (nor would I ever) and I don't really consider it a racial issue, unless you consider Islam a race. My main point in that post was that I object to Hormalakh's point that sexism is culturally relative, especially in the example he gave. He's not the only one to think that of course, but I think it's kind of hog-wash. Women are forced to wear burkha's nobody forces women in America to wear bikini's.

 

First off, no, what ever the hell you're talking about does not exist. There is no story involving women being unable to go to school because someones throwing acid at their faces. There are however stories of insane **** from the UK, to Cambodia, Afghanistan, to Ethopia. It is not a reocurring thing in Islamic, or Abrabian cultures.

 

Edit: Whoop, looks like there was one

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/world/meast/cnnheroes-jan-afghan-school/index.html

 

Sorry Jez. But still, my point does stand that its not somehow exclusive to the Middleeast, its considered ****ing nuts in the Middleeast, and it isn't really indictive of Muslim culture any more than the West Boro Church protesting funerals of Christians, or Scandinivan church Bombers were of Athesists.

 

Second, have you ever actually asked a woman in Burka why she wears it, or if she feels oppressed? Because I actually have, and funnily enough, she didn't wear it because of her family, with her parents both opposing it. She didn't feel oppressed, and she didn't do it because she felt she was better than those western women she knew, and were friends with. For her, it was a choice she made because of who she wanted to be, simple as that.

 

And there are the massive assumptions I was talking about. Assuming that people who wear those clothes must wear them becaues they are forced to. Assuming that the acid throwing asshats are purely an Eastern thing (its not, its a ****ed up **** thing). Assumptions. See, racism isn't this "Dur durr, I hate black people" thing that its often portrayed as on TV, it's often assumptions made about people you don't know. Racism, Jingoism, Sexism, Bigotry in general, all stems from this assumptions thing. And one of the biggest assumptions is that we're immune to these isms.

 

And thats also why I think Obsidian should avoid these topics unless they want to focus heavily on them. It is impossible to get the subtle ugliness that is racism and bigotry with a few small quips, or off hand comments. It really requires digging into it, which is something that Obsidian is really good at. And if they did it, it would be wonderful, but I'm afraid that it just requires a lot of work, and writing to be able to get it just right, so you can walk away with it thinking "I never thought of it like that" instead of "Woah, those guys were racist!".

 

Yes, that idea can be applied to any topic, but I feel its more important to topics like racism, simply because of its ability to actually offend, and incite people. Its not worth putting it in if you're not focusing on it, simply because it brings up too much of a ****storm.

 

 

Edit:

Oh, also, I don't like Joss Whedon, but do we really need to keep talking about him? Based on the current posts, I don't think we'll be able to reall convince anyone about either side, without going massively off topic.

 

Edit:2

Also, heres' the Acid thingy you were talking about. It's really, REALLY, horrible. NSFW, NOT SAFE FOR EYES either. (Actual news story though)

 

http://freethoughtbl...top-loving-men/

 

You've been warned.

Edited by Zenning
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Except Daenerys being able withstand an inferno is totally at odds with her physical appearance of being a human. How is a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one strong out of the question but a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one fireproof is not (after all, improved strength is a staple spell in fantasy right up there with fire protection)?

 

Also you say that the rogue should be sexy, but then what is the problem with River since that's basically what she is. She was strong, yes, but not unreasonably so (not like Buffy or Faith); she was simply very fast, extremely skilled, and telepathic (so she could predict her opponents moves). Besides that, who knows what kind of technology is available in the future that would allow one to alter the muscle density of a human (which, again, is a hell of a lot more realistic than "magical blood makes you fireproof").

 

Edit: Really when you think about it you're the sexist one here because in your mind the only women that should be allowed to fight are giant butch she-men.

 

First off, the powers of the characters you mentioned aren't magical, so that point is moot. Second, you obviously don't understand what verisimilitude is. Its synonymous with plausibility. Nowhere in fire-fly (IIRC) does it say that river has technologically enhanced strength. She's an emaciated fourteen year old girl with a fourteen year old's musculature. No matter how awesome she is at space karate, its not really PLAUSIBLE to see someone with that frame cold **** or throw grown men around a room.

 

Valeria and Red Sonja from REH's conan stories would both fit the bill of a female warrior for me and neither one was a "butch she-man" they just weren't innocent looking weaklings. I'm not sure what planet you live on where female fighters either have to be emaciated anime waifs or buff transexuals.

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Except Daenerys being able withstand an inferno is totally at odds with her physical appearance of being a human. How is a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one strong out of the question but a fantastic ability based on magic that makes one fireproof is not (after all, improved strength is a staple spell in fantasy right up there with fire protection)?

 

Also you say that the rogue should be sexy, but then what is the problem with River since that's basically what she is. She was strong, yes, but not unreasonably so (not like Buffy or Faith); she was simply very fast, extremely skilled, and telepathic (so she could predict her opponents moves). Besides that, who knows what kind of technology is available in the future that would allow one to alter the muscle density of a human (which, again, is a hell of a lot more realistic than "magical blood makes you fireproof").

 

Edit: Really when you think about it you're the sexist one here because in your mind the only women that should be allowed to fight are giant butch she-men.

 

First off, the powers of the characters you mentioned aren't magical, so that point is moot. Second, you obviosuly don't understand what verisimilitude is. Its synonymous with plausibility. Nowhere in fire-fly (IIRC) does it say that river has technologically enhanced strength. She's an emaciated fourteen year old girl with a fourteen year old's musculature. No matter how awesome she is at space karate, its not really PLAUSIBLE to see someone with that frame cold **** or throw grown men around a room.

 

Valeria and Red Sonja from REH's conan stories would both fit the bill of a female warrior for me and neither one was a "butch she-man" they just weren't innocent looking weaklings. I'm not sure what planet you live on where female fighters either have to be emaciated anime waifs or buff transexuals.

 

Slayers were young female humans bestowed with mystical powers that originate from the heart of a demon, which gave her superhuman senses, strength, speed, endurance, agility, and healing in the fight against forces of evil.

 

If that's not magic, then neither is whatever the **** Daenerys has (asbestos skin?).

 

Also, do you know anything about martial arts? Like, at all? It's beyond easy to throw or knock down an opponent twice your weight or more if you have the proper training (

). In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Summer Glau would probably kick your ass in real life; just saying.

 

Finally, have you ever asked an actual women about her opinion on this subject? Most I've talked to are big fans of Buffy, River, and Daenerys, but when asked about Brienne all I get is "why can't she be a little prettier?" and "why does the only woman on this show that can fight have to look like a man?"

 

Edit: Also, Red Sonja, really? I mean I like it but it's hardly a shining example to support your point.

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Slayers were young female humans bestowed with mystical powers that originate from the heart of a demon, which gave her superhuman senses, strength, speed, endurance, agility, and healing in the fight against forces of evil.

 

If that's not magic, then neither is whatever the **** Daenerys has (asbestos skin?).

 

Also, do you know anything about martial arts? Like, at all? It's beyond easy to throw or knock down an opponent twice your weight or more if you have the proper training (

). In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Summer Glau would probably kick your ass in real life; just saying.

 

Finally, have you ever asked an actual women about her opinion on this subject? Most I've talked to are big fans of Buffy, River, and Daenerys, but when asked about Brienne all I get is "why can't she be a little prettier?" and "why does the only woman on this show that can fight have to look like a man?"

 

I'll concede is that In light of Buffy's power's being magical its a bit less verisimilitude breaking, although IMO still silly.

 

The rest of it is nonsense though. I'm sure a well trained female martial artist could kick my ass IRL; I'm equally sure that real female martial artists do not look like River or Buffy. Also, why would it matter what some random women you know think about firefly or buffy? Bad taste is not unique to men.

 

As for why Brien looks like a man, again, she doesn't have to, but it helps. Contrary to what anime may have led you to believe, waving a sword around does actually require some muscle power and size and reach are an advantage in any fight. You don't have to be Jersey shore steroid swole like Brien, but if you look like River, good luck even holding a long sword straight, much less swinging it at someone.

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I'll concede is that In light of Buffy's power's being magical its a bit less verisimilitude breaking, although IMO still silly.

That's a rather PC way of saying "I'm wrong." The only reason it's "still silly" is because you don't want to completely swallow your own bull****, but I'll take the W.

 

The rest of it is nonsense though. I'm sure a well trained female martial artist could kick my ass IRL; I'm equally sure that real female martial artists do not look like River or Buffy. Also, why would it matter what some random women you know think about firefly or buffy? Bad taste is not unique to men.

Did you even watch the video? That chick looked less toned and about the same size as River and she was throwing that dude around rather easily. As for why the opinion of a woman matters; it's because you thinking you know better than women about what is sexist towards them is, in fact, sexism.

 

Additionally, earlier you said:

In reality, the sorts of "strong women" you see in anime or whedon's ****e are just fan services for male-feminist mouth breathers to wank over.

Are you now retracting that statement and replacing it with "the sorts of strong women you see in anime or Whedon's ****e are made for both genders, but I personally do not care for them"? Also, don't complain about fan service and then use Red Sonja as a counterpoint; makes you look a tad... out of touch... would be a polite way of saying it.

 

As for why Brien looks like a man, again, she doesn't have to, but it helps. Contrary to what anime may have led you to believe, waving a sword around does actually require some muscle power and size and reach are an advantage in any fight. You don't have to be Jersey shore steroid swole like Brien, but if you look like River, good luck even holding a long sword straight, much less swinging it at someone.

It "helps" for a female fighter to look like a man because, what, female fighters shouldn't look feminine?

 

Also I did not realize that, you live in the future. I mean how else would you know about all the light weight alloys they may have or all the advances in muscle therapy they may have developed. Yea..... (A sword made of modern low density high strength alloys would be light as **** compared to medieval weapons by the way).

Edited by Dream
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You know there's a lot of themes and ideas to exploit and make a game about besides rape and homos. Like, what can change the nature of a man?

But for some reason these two seem to be most demandable.

 

It's the only way to make a work mature, raw, and/or real (did I miss any other buzz words), didn't you know?

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Did you even watch the video? That chick looked less toned and about the same size as River and she was throwing that dude around rather easily. As for why the opinion of a woman matters; it's because you thinking you know better than women about what is sexist towards them is, by definition, sexism.

 

Um, yeah, and he wasn't resisting the throws, either. If he actually threw his weight against her, I doubt she'd be able to budge him. I can't budge my housemate when he wants to resist me, and I'm 4 inches taller and seventy pounds heavier than he is--he is just flat-out stronger than I am, even though I lift weights at the gym and he does not. One of the major components of judo is that you use your opponent's momentum against them--the kind of momentum they have when they're actually trying to hurt you instead of just helping you demonstrate various moves. She wasn't "kicking his ass". She was demonstrating several different moves with his assistance.

 

Granted, it doesn't mean diddly squat in the long run, because winning a fight is more about using your brains to secure an advantage. If I wanted to kill my housemate, I wouldn't try to match strength with him, because it would be futile. It was rather amusing when we did some German Longsword fighting, because he would try to lock blades or match strength, and I'd just let him push past me and whack him right in the gut or the crotch with my sword. The thing is, I was wielding a big-ass sword perfectly well, even though I am flabby and weak in the muscles. I just wasn't hewing limbs off with a single mighty chop! But that's not a fighting style that'd be suited to my physique. Nor does having a bigass sword imply that you necessarily use a strength style. They don't weigh 50 lbs, you don't need to be some kind of bruiser to wield one. You want to see a weapon where you really need to be a bruiser to use it effectively? LONGBOW. Not many women can manage the draw on a real longbow, and there is no mitigation. It's pure upper-body strength with nothing to help you or compensate for it, no leverage you can use and still aim. (Throwing weapons are the same way.) Yet in movies they always give the bigass sword to the man and stick the skinny girl with a bow. Foolishness. Heck, legend has it that the Amazons actually cut one of their breasts off in order to use a bow properly--**** are not an asset here, either.

 

That's not to say I would declare I'm as fit to join the military as any guy. I'm semi-incapacitated from pain for at least four days every month, which makes campaigns extremely problematic. Hygiene is not a simple matter when you're fighting a war. Granted, not every woman has this problem in the same degree. Nor would this be a problem in every combat situation. But it does add a complication, and complications in wartime can get you killed. I, personally, think men do the fighting because their anatomy is less likely to get inconveniently fubar'ed, and certainly not on a regular monthly basis. Nor can they get pregnant. Facts which almost all fiction about fighting women conveniently ignores.

 

Heh, if they want to have some realistic male/female stuff in the game, have the female companion periodically get all grumpy and refuse to leave the base for a while.

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Um, yeah, and he wasn't resisting the throws, either. If he actually threw his weight against her, I doubt she'd be able to budge him. I can't budge my housemate when he wants to resist me, and I'm 4 inches taller and seventy pounds heavier than he is--he is just flat-out stronger than I am, even though I lift weights at the gym and he does not. One of the major components of judo is that you use your opponent's momentum against them--the kind of momentum they have when they're actually trying to hurt you instead of just helping you demonstrate various moves. She wasn't "kicking his ass". She was demonstrating several different moves with his assistance.

 

Aren't you kind of proving the point that a smaller, lighter opponent can beat a larger one? A lot of it is genetics (which River had top notch to begin with and then was given even better through crazy experiments) which determine the natural strength of one's muscles. Besides, if you're well trained you can pull those moves off even easier in a real fight since, as you said, your opponent will have a lot more momentum (being a telepath doesn't hurt either).

 

Heh, if they want to have some realistic male/female stuff in the game, have the female companion periodically get all grumpy and refuse to leave the base for a while.

 

Now that'd be funny.

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You don't need to be Brienne of Tarth to be a female female warrior.

 

You can be Julie d'Aubigny. Who was a real person, mind you, and was both a successful opera singer and a duelist. Who beat her male opponents. Throw in the fact that she was fiercely independent and bisexual, she'd be considered "fan service for the male-feminist to wank over".

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Aren't you kind of proving the point that a smaller, lighter opponent can beat a larger one? A lot of it is genetics (which River had top notch to begin with and then was given even better through crazy experiments) which determine the natural strength of one's muscles. Besides, if you're well trained you can pull those moves off even easier in a real fight since, as you said, your opponent will have a lot more momentum (being a telepath doesn't hurt either).

 

Sure. But keep in mind that my housemate, while smaller and lighter than I am, is also substantially *stronger*. When a man is bigger than a woman, he's usually also substantially stronger. It's the strength that's the advantage, not the height/weight so much. Although strength + height/weight can really magnify the advantage. IF you're dumb enough to try to attack where your opponent's advantage is.

 

Also, I've developed being a wuss to professional levels, so I'm a really bad example on "fighting" anyone apart from cheap shots and low blows.

Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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I'm not going lie, I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet but I would like to say that I really am hoping to see a certain level of sexism in the game. As long as there's a way to counter it, and there always should be, both genders should be viewed differently by different characters and cultures.

 

If there's a character in a quest line that has been rather built up to be a sexist pig, then I fully expect that character to treat me like he would any other woman. Whether he leers at me, tries some extremely terrible chat up lines(or some really smooth chat up lines) or laughs at my fully plated Fighter, claiming she's "playing at war", I would expect him to try something and I would be bitterly disappointed if he didn't. If I encounter a stalwart, gentlemanly warrior and I drop him on his arse in combat, I would fully expect him to gracefully concede, perhaps even admit that I fight better than most men he's faced.

 

I don't think there should be ways to counter sexism if it's in the game, at least not on a regular basis. The thing about cultural prejudice is that it victimizes you and you can't usually change the way people perceive you. So if there's a tribe of barbarians demeaning your female character because "women are weak", besting one of them unarmed shouldn't radically change the way they think about you/ women in general. It would be far more realistic if they either a) don't comment on it at all, b) all get up in arms and you have to slaughter them - a very unpleasant resolution.

 

If they are going the 'mature' route of integrating racism and sexism, do it properly and make them as uncomfortable as they really are.

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