Magic and ingredients

[Hormalakh]

In D&D, resurrection needed diamonds. Some other games made spells require ingredients as a general rule. In P:E, what do you guys think about some higher level spells requiring ingredients? Or lower-level spells requiring ingredients? Middle-level spells? All spells? Any spells?

 

Perhaps these ingredients are similar ingredients used in enchanting or crafting. Maybe not. What do you think?

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Sacred_Path]

I voted other, because

 

1) it's a nice touch to have requirements for casting magic. It's that very primitive logic that you have to sacrifice something in order to gain something (extraordinary).

 

2) It's so entirely gimmicky and not by any means necessary. It just adds one more component you have to take into consideration as far as balance goes. How many reagents of type x can you find or buy, how expensive etc.

[jezz555]

ugh no. I have never seen a DM play with those rules. It might be okay to have a ritual for a quest that requires you to gather materials as a one time sort of deal, but I don't want my mage to have to wander off in search of Yugoloth pubes or something every time he wants to cast a fireball.

[kabaliero]

i vote for needing ingregients to learn a particular spell

[Pipyui]

I actually like having to hoard ingredients to perform a few particular spells, so long as the acquisition of these materials involves a real cost. Having a collection of spells that can only be used with certain reagents gives me access to more (or more specific) power when necessary, but must be mangaged as a non-infinite resource. It's not much different from potions, really - just more class-particular.

[Agelastos]

Definitely. Like in Ultima. Something like the Ritual Magic system introduced in The Black Gate would be really nice. I'm so sick and tired of Vancian Magic and "mana pools":

Edited November 15, 2012 by Agelastos

[DreamingVoid]

If done in an intelligent and realistic way, why not. But I think they should restrict it to certain unique spells so it doesn't degrade into; "Blast, I've run out of [ingredient], I can't cast any fireballs!". Or maybe you should be able to "slot" ingredient(s) into spells, enhancing it or creating a new spell entirely. Doesn't necessarily have to be combat related.

Like, you slot a powdered ice golem heart into your water blast 'card' and use it on a river, the river freezes and allows you to walk over it for a short ammout of time.

[ReyVagabond]

Perosnaly despite liking the idea of Magical ingridiets like in the Ulitima Games (i loved ultima 7) its all about balance.

YES BALANCE.

 

Having ingrdiets for magic means that i need to stock on X item/s to cast magic, For example A mana potion can be considered as ingredient to cast a spell. dont tell me you never tought about it?

 

If i need mandrake roots, or dimond dust and vials of dragon blood! to cast my powerfull spells, that meens 2 things or is a gimic and i only need to stock up before entenring a "danger zone" or its means that i colect those ingrdiets to keep me fueled with my magic spells or keep me away from casting those spells for balance issues because they are to good to use often.

So there is no diference with a magic potion, both have the same objective keep me able to cast all my spells.

 

So personally i'll keep posting what i want.

Stamina as only resourse to cast spell or abilitis, and not having any kind restoring potions, time restores stamina or some spells or abilities and resting recovers fatigue witch is a simple stamina cap the longer it passes sinse you last rested or you used a realy exausting spell or ability.

Example A Wizard with a poll of 100 Stamina after two days without resting he has 50 stamina and heavy fatigue. that mens if he wants to cast a 60 fatigue conuming spell he cant because he is exausted!

 

In Crafting well i dont want the characters to craft anything but consumables or repair and upkeep their gear. Personaly i prefer that crafting NPCs help in that department. Something like the Witcher 2 is a start to keep building upon.

[Hormalakh]

I wouldn't want ingrdients to be a common need for common spells, like fireball. But something like resurrection (which i know doesn't exist in P:E; it's just an example) or "time stop" night be nice to need ingredients. But I guess you could do the same with scrolls...

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Tsuga C]

As with a number of previous posters, I wouldn't mind needing material components for high-end spell and one-off, powerful rituals. As a rule, though, it's more of a Pen 'n' Paper element that encourages players to spend their excess coinage, mingle with the locals in the market, draw them to exotic and/or remote locations in search of rare components, and add a dash of verisimilitude to the gaming experience. Verisimilitude? Yes, because throughout all of life it's virtually impossible to get something for nothing and this reinforces that maxim.

 

Why not require material components for all spells? Reality check, ladies and gentlemen: it's a videogame and a significant portion of the players will be too impatient to spend much time gathering mistletoe leaves with a silver or golden sickle by the light of a full moon. They'd rather be hacking critters to pieces and blowing them up than assembling the magical equivalent of chemical reagents for a chemistry lab.

[Agelastos]

Why not require material components for all spells? Reality check, ladies and gentlemen: it's a videogame and a significant portion of the players will be too impatient to spend much time gathering mistletoe leaves with a silver or golden sickle by the light of a full moon. They'd rather be hacking critters to pieces and blowing them up than assembling the magical equivalent of chemical reagents for a chemistry lab.

 

Why not? It's been done before. In Ultima 7, for instance, which is generally considered one of the best CRPGs of all time.

I thought the reason Obsidian decided to make this a crowd funded game was so that they wouldn't have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

People who are looking for a fast-paced action RPG will probably not buy P.E. anyway.

[Tsuga C]

Why not? It's been done before. In Ultima 7, for instance, which is generally considered one of the best CRPGs of all time.

I thought the reason Obsidian decided to make this a crowd funded game was so that they wouldn't have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

People who are looking for a fast-paced action RPG will probably not buy P.E. anyway.

 

There's a tremendous difference between the philosophical and existential conundrums posed in a setting like Planescape that are part of a journey of self-discovery and stumbling around out in the hinterlands looking for spell components while occassionally bumping into a random encounter. I certainly don't want P:E to be an RPG-lite hackfest, but if I'm to be gathering that mistletoe by the light of the moon with a sickle of precious metal, then there'd better be some amusing banter, wry observations, and/or profound questions posed by the party members or circumstances to keep the task engaging.

 

Otherwise, all I'm doing is the equivalent of folding laundry or vacuuming, chores that cause time to drag.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Tsuga C

[Agelastos]

There's a tremendous difference between the philosophical and existential conundrums posed in a setting like Planescape that are part of a journey of self-discovery and stubling around out in the hinterlands looking for spell components while occassionally bumping into a random encounter. I certainly don't want P:E to be an RPG-lite hackfest, but if I'm to be gathering that mistletoe by the light of the moon with a sickle of precious metal, then there'd better be some amusing banter, wry observations, and/or profound questions posed by the party members or circumstances to keep the task engaging.

 

Otherwise, all I'm doing is the equivalent of folding laundry or vacuuming, chores that cause time to drag.

 

It wouldn't be much different from gathering alchemy ingredients in game series like Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, The Witcher, or The Elder Scrolls. Besides, there could always be alchemy/herbalist shops for those who don't feel like taking that extra second or two to pick up some ingredients whenever they pass by a bush or a patch of flowers.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Agelastos

[Pshaw]

I'm going to say no. I don't think buying regents from a vendor adds anything but an annoying little bit of inventory management. I also dislike the idea of not being able to use spells I've earned through leveling.

 

Now I would be ok with the idea of some of the highest level spells in the game requiring pricey regents provided they packed sufficient punch. I'm ok with having a spell I only use on bosses or other extremely tough battles because casting it is very costly. Still even in this scenario I'd rather the cost come from the character rather than an item in the inventory. The slayer in BG2 did this pretty well as it cost 2 reputation to transform and ran the risk of getting you killed.

[Chilloutman]

Already posted it elswere but I particulary like idea about ingerients. and as for those who fear a need of them I am for lowering required amount of ingredients as user level up. So at the end, low level spells will require 0 ingredients where you will still need to find rare ingredients to cast those awesome imba allinsightisdead spells and think about using them in right moment (because you never know when or how many more you will find)

[Somna]

I'm thinking in the realm of "it depends."

 

If they include must-have spells like Stoneskin, then absolutely there needs to be expensive material components, and in limited quantities so people don't just keep spells like that up 24/7.

 

If they don't have anything like that, I don't see any particular reason to have expensive material components other than for a quest to help an NPC.

[Umberlin]

I wouldn't be against spell components. I wouldn't be against a lack of them either . . . heck, you could even make it so some spells/spell-types /classes/whatever required reagents, and others did not, and I'd still be okay with it. I see the value of ingredients, as a mechanic and limiter, and I also see the reasons for there not be ingredients in other cases.

 

I'm pretty easy to please where this topic is concerned.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Umberlin

[teknoman2]

the game will have a jedi-force style magic system based on innate powers so it's fairly useless to require components.

[The Guilty Party]

Ehh it's kind of like arrows. It's neat to be able to augment with special stuff, but day-to-day 'I need to maintain a stack of things that are very easy to come by' is just sort of tedious.

[HansKrSG]

As I understand the magic system powered by souls, there shouldn't be a need for exact ingredients for different types of spells, but I can see the use of some materials as focuses, or alchemical ingredients to help reaching into your own power, maybe getting to cast spells that otherwise would be impossible for you to cast, because of the power involved.

[Frisk]

I don't like spell components at all, and for "soul-based" magic they make even less sense than usually.

 

However...

 

I would be fine with items that would somehow help you focus your magic - items that would be necessary to allow two mages to cooperate on casting a really powerful spell or items that somehow store "soul energy" and allow you to cast spells that would otherwise be beyond your ability.

 

Magical components in general....no thanks.

[Agelastos]

"Less sense than usual"? Have you read anything about medieval hedge witchcraft, ceremonial magic such as theurgy or goety, or even your own country's tradition of stave magic?

Material spell components are vital in all of them, even if they don't all use herbal reagents. Fetishes, sigils and other foci are spell components.

 

And the fact that magic in P.E. is soul based doesn't really change anything. The soul/spirit, and it's various cultural equivalents, is the source of magic power in a lot of real world magic systems. Most of them, probably. That doesn't change the fact that there are extremely few, if any, forms of magic that are practiced without the use of material components of some kind.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Agelastos

[AGX-17]

It's not magic if it takes ingredients, that's one of the following:

A. Cooking

B. Alchemy

C. Chemistry

 

"Less sense than usual"? Have you read anything about medieval hedge witchcraft, ceremonial magic such as theurgy or goety, or even your own country's tradition of stave magic?

Material spell components are vital in all of them, even if they don't all use herbal reagents. Fetishes, sigils and other foci are spell components.

 

Fun fact: That doesn't matter because MAGIC ISN'T REAL.

Edited November 23, 2012 by AGX-17

[gglorious]

This sounds more like an annoyance than anything else. Inventory management is the part of playing an RPG game that I care the least about. I'm absolutely fine with making sure my characters have the best swords, as that's not a huge commitment. I can be convinced that arrows and healing potions are important for me to have a large stockpile of. Asking me to keep up with anything beyond this is just annoying though, as it simply means that I have to spend time thinking about whether my mage has sufficient mandrake roots and I don't want to play "Inventory Management Quest".

 

I mean, this really seems like what's actually desired is that instead of having one item(like a "resurrection focus"), we have to have a bunch of assorted items that may not be as easily found together, or may be differently served by different merchants, making the issue an annoyance as then I have to focus on finding the dragon scales and mandrake roots in the sufficient quantities for the recipe, rather than just being able to solve my problem and move on.

 

Here's what I'm going to say: If any system like this is implemented, I strongly feel the need for it to be optional. Maybe you save money by crafting, BUT other people just can opt out somehow and avoid all of the hassle.

[clippedwolf]

Needing to carry around ingredients for spells does not seem like fun, it seems like unnecessary management. I think requiring ingredients to use special, unique spells is acceptable.