Respectful discussion

[Ralewyn]

[Apologies if this topic should be posted elsewhere, this was the best place I could think of for it.]

 

I've been noticing a rather disturbing trend on this forum as of late when it comes to discussions on Project Eternity, and I figure somebody should probably bring it up.

 

Now, I understand we all care very deeply about the success of this project and a lot of us are expecting Project Eternity to be the grand glorious return to the golden age of yore. However, a lot of people have very different and often conflicting ideas on what will make this project successful, as is obvious in the long threads about particularly controversial topics like resting, experience gain and such. While this is okay and in fact a good thing, how these conflicting ideas are being discussed a lot of the time is becoming problematic.

 

Again, I understand that we're all very passionate about this project, and it's natural for that passion to be expressed through what we want in the game or what we think it needs, but we're going overboard and it's derailing legitimate discussion. I'm seeing civil and legitimate debates and discussions turned into really petty internet arguments where it's just a back and forth between two or more dudes trying to prove the other party 'wrong' without trying to see the issue from the other perspective. It gains the thread plenty of attention but all the new opinions and perspectives it brings in are swept away by the constant mile-long multi-quote posts that often just boil down to "Once again, sir, you're the jerk."

 

Now I know anyone who's doing this is only doing it because they care so much about the project, but I'd like to contend that this behavior does more harm than good when a discussion thread degenerates into this state because the communication is no longer efficient or productive.

 

We're supposed to be the Glorious PC Master Race, are we not? If this is true, can we not rise above these petty squabbles for the sake of the community and the project? Can we stop treating our opponents as though they're knuckle-dragging morons because they have a dissenting opinion? Can we all accept that sometimes we may not necessarily be correct in our arguments or assumptions, and not be afraid to admit that? Can we stop ridiculing and ostracizing the man who wants this game to work with a gamepad, even if his reasons aren't necessarily the best and he doesn't necessarily realize the implications of making an interface work on a user experience level with both a keyboard/mouse and gamepad?

 

Project Eternity's got a veteran design team, and they're not going to listen to any arguments that were shouted the loudest, nor are they even going to listen to what arguments are proven right in discussion. They know what they're doing, and they're going to rigorously prototype and playtest every argument they can in the most efficient manner possible before any community suggestions that are beyond 'three days of work to implement vanity feature' are integrated into the design of the game at large. This means we don't have to worry about 'my' Project Eternity being hijacked by some huckster trying to sell everyone on x feature, because debate and discussion means squat when put next to hard playtesting data.

The real purpose of these discussions is to bring as many perspectives and ideas to the table as possible for the design team to synthesize while allowing them to get a general idea of what this small slice of the fanbase wants, as hopefully a sample group for the rest of those who kickstarted the project. I believe these arguments getting out of hand muddles that valuable data.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm just new here and I'm seeing patterns that aren't there or this is something that's just part of the culture around here and that's just something to accept. If that's the case, feel free to just let this thread die.

But if anyone else thinks what I'm saying here has merit, can we start trying to make a better effort towards respecting each-other and and keeping discussions on track?

 

Thank you.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Ralewyn

[Osvir]

I think that communication is super important, and on that; your post is great. I'd personally want frankness however, if someone thinks I'm a jerk, I want them to tell me I'm a jerk. Maybe it releases stressful tension in their bodies that they need to vent, or maybe it makes me re-think what I'm actually writing.

 

What others respond to me is the Feedback I get, what "others think" and sure it can be saddening or hurtful when others either don't respond or respond in a poor manner. I think that's probably worse to be honest, one of the reasons why I'm responding here to you. Not getting an answer at all would be the worst, that's like saying "I wouldn't even poke that thread with a stick". It might just be so simple that people agree with you but think it's senseless/useless discussion because within a week there's going to be a new "Villain" who appears at the scene who wants to express his views and opinions, and he'll run you over with harsh bitter words just like the one before him did. Some people, as harsh as it sounds doesn't give a damn. Some fight Fire with Fire, some fight it with Water, and some with Oil (because they think it's fun) the point is that the Fire will still be there, specially at a place like this with so much Passion.

 

Then again this is a community where everyone is bipolar (as a whole), you might want console controller support I might want keyboard+mouse support (if I only got to choose between the two), someone wants Level Scaling, someone else doesn't want it at all. Some people want Multiplayer, some strictly Single Player. Some want 300 companions, some only 1. Some play Solo, or only Once, some play with passion over and over again until they've found every bit of needle in every haystack there is, then they go and mod more needles that they throw senselessly into the haystack. Some scream and rage when they die in Dark Souls, others take a deep breathe and try to learn from their mistakes "Where did I go wrong?". Some try to be friends, and for some it's their job (Moderators) and they are doing their job very well imo. Some like chocolate more than vanilla, and vice versa, if you catch my drift, I can go on forever. Some like to communicate, some don't.

 

Some try to be adults, when they really are children, and some try to be children, when they really are adults. That was way wiser than I intended xD

 

Anyways, I think you're cool Ralewyn, kudos. Have a great wonderful day

 

EDIT: Someone has to teach for another to learn~ simply put; treat others like you want others to treat you

Edited November 9, 2012 by Osvir

[Hellfell]

Apart from occasional pew pew, Obsidian forum is one of the better game communities out there.

[Jarmo]

Apart from occasional pew pew, Obsidian forum is one of the better game communities out there.

 

As long as the discussion is not about game romance.

[Farbautisonn]

Apart from occasional pew pew, Obsidian forum is one of the better game communities out there.

 

As long as the discussion is not about game romance.

 

There is a reason I havent participated in that thread....

 

As for "Respectfull conversation" pr the OPs initial post. Im all for it but we come from different backgrounds and we do have strong opinions. Some of us take critizism better than others, and some of us like a heated and passionate discussion rather than a misundestood compromise.

 

I think this forum is one of the better, no doubt, but I dont think you can avoid controversy, trolls and a heated discourse.

[FlintlockJazz]

Its generally decent here, there are the occasional ruckus between egos and there were some who seem intent on being bastards but those latter ones don't seem to stay long. I am a bit concerned at the use of some language that is derogatory to certain forms of roleplaying due to misconceptions (for instance the misuse of LARP for derogatory activities) especially considering that RPGs as a whole is a hobby often looked down upon by others that we really don't need to turn on each other...

[rjshae]

Tl;dr, but I agree with the OP in the general sense of preferring civil discourse, both here and elsewhere.

 

Then again, it's convenient when obnoxious individuals expediently identify themselves, as that makes it trivially easy to maintain my Ignore list.

[BetrayTheWorld]

Very good post, and I agree for the most part. I try to be respectful of other people's opinions, but I also consider the situation carefully, and am not afraid to dissent and post something that isn't in line with an OP or vocal person in a thread. I think I've done a fairly decent job of reining myself in, and not being too inflammatory in my responses.

 

Even with posters who have shown themselves to be....illogical, I've tried to be at least superficially respectful. Although, admittedly, I've taken a couple intellectual jabs at people, but only when I thought the jab would go over their head anyhow.

 

One question: How do you deal with the posters who are knuckle-dragging morons? Because you have to admit, they exist.

[Few]

We're supposed to be the Glorious PC Master Race, are we not?

 

True

Edited November 9, 2012 by Few

[SophosTheWise]

I still remember the days of Forumfall... *shudders*

[Monte Carlo]

[Hassat Hunter]

It can be pretty annoying to talk to people who just plainly do not read your post... it's... hard.

 

Aside from that, the discussions generally stay pretty civil here, no complains there. Joke threads maybe a bit too many now. And I stayed clear of the romance discussion...

 

If I am being mean, demeaning or inflamatory (of which I am sometimes accused) it's never really intentional.

 

Also really good to see the activity died down a bit around here... the amount of topics to read through before could get insane. It's a lot more managable now. In the end I assume only the most interested in PE remain, and that could spark interesting discussions...

[LadyCrimson]

Also really good to see the activity died down a bit around here... the amount of topics to read through before could get insane. It's a lot more managable now. In the end I assume only the most interested in PE remain, and that could spark interesting discussions...

Yeah, my experience has often been that the most interesting topics can occur when the forum pace is slower. But my guess is that it'll pick up pretty heavily again as it gets close to actual release (and after, of course). So enjoy the relative slow period/calm while you can.

[mcmanusaur]

I think we should hold a community picnic to encourage emotional bonding and mutually respectful interaction. Who's with me? I'll bring paper plates!

[Monte Carlo]

No.

[SinoSamba]

I lurk around on BSN, Valve forums and RPGCodex. Obsidian forums are very friendly and reasonable compared to those.

 

But OP's point is appreciated, we should try to keep the discussions at a higher level and not devolve into name-calling.

[Sacred_Path]

bromance > romance

[Pipyui]

While I agree 100% with this, was it really something that needed to be addressed? I kind of thought this sort of behavior was, you know, expected. Everyone knows they should be civil, some just don't care, and I doubt starting a thread telling them to is going to change that.

 

It's unfortunate, but no amount of patronizing can stop the internet from being the internet.

 

Edit: Smiley face for positive inflection.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Pipyui

[smithereen]

I actually really like the atmosphere on these forums, it's like the Bioware forums before they got infested with haters.

[Farbautisonn]

I actually really like the atmosphere on these forums, it's like the Bioware forums before they got infested with haters.

 

So... before EA ?

[Hormalakh]

I think we should hold a community picnic to encourage emotional bonding and mutually respectful interaction. Who's with me? I'll bring paper plates!

 

I'll only come if you bring lots of chocolate cake.

 

To the OP. Well said.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Your mom is a respectful discussion.

[jezz555]

I say let people say what they want. As long as people aren't just trolling and they have legitimate beliefs to espouse I have no problem with them espousing them, and I'm not going to get offended if they choose to employ sarcasm or w/e. Maybe it's just me, but this whole topic just seems a little patronizing.

[Kaz]

I agree with your observations. As most of us know, trolls are only a problem if you keep feeding them with attention. You don't win by reacting to them because that's exactly what they want. The ignore list is a handy feature. If you see a post or reply that clearly isn't adding to or moving the topic forward, smile, then recite the words "cool story bro" and move on. It's pretty magical.

[Jasede]

I'd love to do some emotional bonding and some mutually respectful interaction.

If you know what I mean.