Identifying unknown items in PE

[Huinehtar]

I don't mind a Lore/Skill ability for this, altho I tend to get irritated when only a mage can learn it or something (essentially "forcing" one to have a mage in the party).

 

But to me it makes sense that there are going to be magiks that no one in your party may be able to ID offhand, so a representation of needing some skill/knowledge in order to do it isn't something I'm against. Just...no constant "scrolls of ID" that one has to carry around all the time. And I'd be fine with being able to equip an item regardless of it's ID state, unknown penalties/risk included.

 

I wasn't necessarily referring to a mage to master lore, take the example of a legendary bow mentionned by an ancient tale:

 

a lone knight dismissed by his master because he was desobeing an order to take over a noble family's possessions; only the daughter could be saved by the knight from comploting man's spies who kills parents; the knight and the girl flew into the woods far from cities; years after, during a hunt, he discover a priest of some "nature" god -some kind of druid-; the priest kidnapped the girl to force her to worship his deity; so the knight wandered days and days, searching, and he found an old treefolk which gave him a little branch with which he build a bow; weeks after, the knight's soul was plenty of various feeling, like fear, hate, will, despair, etc... but the knight fought againts negative feelings inside himself, and always hold the bow, so intense feelings from his soul were communicated to the bow's soul (the treefolk forgot to tell that his branch had a part of his soul).

 

After months, the knight found the priest deep inside the forest. When the knight tried to bend his bow, this bow was ready to shoot, as one being, the girl shout not to kill, she didn't want more blood to be spelt. And both knight and bow after ten long seconds accept to release the mad priest. Years after this tale, a mysterious being is wandering in deep woods, not searching some revenge, shadows can be seen, and some folks from little towns anear are telling that his being can spare only just's life, and may forgive some people, but doesn't have any mercy for others, and the bow acts at his own will, so noone tried to steal it.

 

With this example, I am pretty sure, that rangers, and town folks would be aware of this kind of story, and a mage wouldn't find this tale inside one of his books.

[Huinehtar]

Nothing wrong with how identify worked in the IE games. Surprisingly that so many people liked the old IE games but turn around and then say about the IE games: this was bad, that was bad, identifying was a chore, etc. It almost seems everybody hated the IE games everytime a topic like this pops ups.

 

It's not about telling that IE games were bad, but they are perfectible. And especially the game system (AD&D, D&D3.0 for IWD2) which is the PnP most played in the world, but it's not really the best (and I am telling about each editions it had). Personally, I have seen much better systems in fantasy settings (but not necessarily).And the fact is OE doesn't plan to make an IE game with PE, because it won't use D&D rules (like Identify spell).

[rjshae]

To give item identification any depth, I think they would need to provide more than one set of descriptive information for every magic item. For example:

• Unidentified -- it looks like a well-made sword and is very useful for opening envelopes.
  
• Qualified -- it is unusually well balanced weapon and has some magical properties, giving it a 5-10% better chance of striking a foe and inflicting around 4-8% more damage. The weapon seems to hum slightly when you breath upon it.
  
• Identified -- this is the long lost sword of the winds. It improved attack odds and damage by +9%, while gaining a +24% to critical attacks against winged creatures and air elementals. The wielder gains a +1 to Parry and once per day it can cast gust of wind.
  

You get a Qualified result after using it for a period, or by studying it with a low Lore skill. Identified requires a much higher Lore skill, either by a player or from an expert using various identification techniques.

[GrinningReaper659]

Nothing wrong with how identify worked in the IE games. Surprisingly that so many people liked the old IE games but turn around and then say about the IE games: this was bad, that was bad, identifying was a chore, etc. It almost seems everybody hated the IE games everytime a topic like this pops ups.

Well, a great deal of the serious fans of these old games (myself included) have played through one or all of them dozens of times over the years and, in doing so, have come upon aspects that just clearly seem to be lacking in some way, in that it seems that they could be made better. Some people played Baldur's Gate a time or two back in the day, and are looking to just essentially play it again today, and so these people are leary of change; whereas others have played Baldur's Gate thirty or more times and have come across things that could definitely be improved upon. Still, if I were to start a new file of an RPG today, it would be another playthrough of BG, or PS:T, or Fallout. I own DA and NWN 1&2 and many other of the more recent RPGs, but I still prefer those older games. The thing that made those games great was a large combination of things, and so I don't think there's anything wrong with attempting to imrove upon those individual components, without straying too far from the magic that made the games so great to play.

 

Saying that something could be improved doesn't mean that it isn't currently the best representation of itself available, it just means that there is potential for improvement. The ie games and fallout were great, and potentially the best cRPGs ever made as a whole, but that definitely doesn't mean that the components that made them up can't be improved upon, becuase they can.

 

As I see it, it's all about learning from the mistakes of the last decade and a half of RPGs. In the cases where branching out from that which worked well in the classics has proved to make for a worse game, use restraint when considering changing that specific mechanic. Consider all the things that have gone wrong since the games inspiring PE (and why they've gone wrong) and avoid those things, while considering all the great things about those games and employing them (or something similar) in PE.

Edited October 27, 2012 by GrinningReaper659

[GrinningReaper659]

everyone should be able to determine the nature of an obviously magical item, simply by using it, but only an expert (or someone with an identify spell) should be able to find out the actual nature and background of the enchantment, as well as possible side effects that are not so obvious.

 

Whether or not the enchantments are clearly seen in the use of an item is largely dependent on the types of enchantments that end up being common. Weapons that enable the wielder to cast some spell x times per day, or almost all activated effects of magical artifacts, wouldn't just be discovered, especially if, as some are suggesting, there's no way to tell if an item is even magical or not by looking at it. Some of the ideas presented have been interesting, but most of them just seem that they'll end up making the entire process more tedious.

 

So, as far as identificaion goes, my vote is to keep it as simple as it was back in the day or simplify it more, I wouldn't be happy to see it replaced with some more tedious system. I'd be happy with very little identification throughout the game in general: only a few unique, powerful magic items need to be identified by someone, and so are taken to the society of mages in the nearest big, big city. Also, having just a few of these items could allow for their identifications to become quests in themselves, quests to identify said items. Just a thought.

 

Anyway, as I said, when it comes to identification, the more often you have to worry about it, the more tedious it becomes, and more tedious = less fun (in this case at least).

[The Guilty Party]

IE style identifying is just kind of pointless, as people have pointed out. It's a speedbump that doesn't add much. But a more fulfilling system might be fun. Maybe something where most items are automatically identified, but rare artifacts have quests or something to unveil their powers. (Maybe with choice in the quest so that the item is different, depending on your choices. At least in some cases).

[nikolokolus]

Trial and error baby. No dodging cursed items unless you have a very strong legend lore type spell or have your item examined by a certified enchanter.

[rjshae]

Trial and error baby. No dodging cursed items unless you have a very strong legend lore type spell or have your item examined by a certified enchanter.

The problem with cursed items is the problem with traps: game reloads. To avoid this, the curse effect would have to be insidious, gradually working its magic over the course of a significant length of game play. Alternatively, cursed items have benefits that must be weighed against the imposed penalties.

Edited October 28, 2012 by rjshae

[Pipyui]

I think it might be kinda neat to not know whether or not an item is magical, though I don't know how well that might fit into the lore (perhaps magic has an intrinsic flavor). Of course, then we'd all just ask the wizard in the party to examine it, nothing really changes.

The idea of using the lore skill to determine how many enchantments an item has can also be expanded to classify enchantments in merely qualitative terms at lower skill levels. You'd be able to ascertain that an axe may incinerate foes for instance, but not how much damage that incineration yields. Plus, since items are going to be mostly unique and not randomly generated, magic effects might have unique twists too - side effects only knowable to arcane experts.

 

Also curses, definitely riding the curses wagon over here.

[Sedrefilos]

Idintifying items is just stoopid. It only makes you use scrolls or memorize xtra spells where you could memorize something more useful. You are going ot identify the object eventually. Just stoopid.

[JFSOCC]

Trial and error baby. No dodging cursed items unless you have a very strong legend lore type spell or have your item examined by a certified enchanter.

The problem with cursed items is the problem with traps: game reloads. To avoid this, the curse effect would have to be insidious, gradually working its magic over the course of a significant length of game play. Alternatively, cursed items have benefits that must be weighed against the imposed penalties.

boots of blinding speed in morrowind. made you blind (but that was fixable with magic) and increased your speed significantly.

 

I like the idea that you can identify a magic item in parts, If it has any activated abilities, it might not be apparent that they're possible. You could be walking around with a staff that allows you to cast a powerful spell three times, a lesser spell once per day, and a cantrip all the time, and you might only know how to do the cantrip because you don't realise you haven't fully identified its function yet. That would allow for some depth in identifying items.

[Mils]

To give item identification any depth, I think they would need to provide more than one set of descriptive information for every magic item. For example:

• Unidentified -- it looks like a well-made sword and is very useful for opening envelopes.
  
• Qualified -- it is unusually well balanced weapon and has some magical properties, giving it a 5-10% better chance of striking a foe and inflicting around 4-8% more damage. The weapon seems to hum slightly when you breath upon it.
  
• Identified -- this is the long lost sword of the winds. It improved attack odds and damage by +9%, while gaining a +24% to critical attacks against winged creatures and air elementals. The wielder gains a +1 to Parry and once per day it can cast gust of wind.
  

You get a Qualified result after using it for a period, or by studying it with a low Lore skill. Identified requires a much higher Lore skill, either by a player or from an expert using various identification techniques.

 

I like this idea, a two step identification method would be cool, and prevent you 'having' to memorise identify spells. Perhaps certain conditions could trigger an items abilities, thus identifying them through use. For example you would notice that your sword inflicted deeper wounds when fighting goblins etc, recognising it as a 'Goblin Bane'. Or simple enchantments that grant a bonus to hit would be conveyed as your blade striking much truer than a normal weapon, but not knowing if its +1 or +3.

 

But for the lore and full identification of an item you would need a high lore skill or to seek someone out to research it for you. I completely agree with being able to use unidentified items and gauge some ability from that through use. It would be fun and a nice change from the usual identify mechanic.

[Osvir]

Another idea which I think belongs in this thread as well:

 

Lifting curses from weapons, basically if a cursed weapon has 1 pro and 1 con given by the curse, as well as 1 pro regardless of that, you could remove the 1 pro 1 con and be left with 1 pro only on the weapon. It'd be remarkably weaker but you'd get a more flexible (and less dangerous) weapon.

 

Could you curse your own items?

[mstark]

No word yet. If there is such a spell, then I don't want the items (specifically armour/jewelry or weapons) to be unequippable. With the risk of a curse, but whatever.

 

I think it'd be nifty if specific magical abilities were discovered over use instead, with the option to take an item to a magic expert for full identification. For example, you find a mace. You can tell by the fact that your soul flows more freely through it that it has magical properties, but you're not sure what. You decide to wield it for now. After smacking a nasty critter with it and seeing that it does some fire damage, you "identify" that aspect of its enchantment yourself, and it appears on the item description. Or you find a helm, and after putting it on, discover you can see better at night; but maybe there's an on-use shield effect you hadn't figured out, and that has to be fully identified with an expert.

Would love a system like this, where a magical item's properties are only revealed once the effect is triggered.

 

Like with discovering the fire damage by attacking, say a weapon gives 30% magic resistance, only when that resistance is actually triggered, after a few spells (30% chance to reveal the property, since it has 30% chance to be effective) has been cast on the character wielding the weapon, is the effect revealed.

 

The game log could show a message along the lines of "character x revealed a new property of item y".

 

Convoluted? Maybe. But it would make the item immediately usable, but with its abilities hidden until discovered. That way, you wouldn't know you've found a truly epic item until you've discovered all its abilities. An item could have some descriptive text along the lines of "your feel a tingling sensation while holding the item", that would only disappear once all properties are discovered.

 

There should be an option to bring an item somewhere to identify it, in case you want to make sure there are no curses on it. Also, named items, and items with non-discoverable abilities (like spells), would need to be identified for full use.

 

For a long sword +1, you'd know once you've put it in your hand that it's a very finely balanced sword. At least if you know how to handle a sword.

 

Wild ideas.

 

Loving rjshae's idea.

Edited October 29, 2012 by mstark

[Amentep]

I'm not crazy about identify spells. I understand their important but it seems to make identification trivial (and only exist as a way to force the player to spend gold on identify scrolls).

 

That said, it'd be interesting if identifying an item might take multiple steps unless someone with a high "lore" skill is involved as in the above unknown/qualified/identified suggestion.

[rjshae]

Nothing wrong with how identify worked in the IE games. Surprisingly that so many people liked the old IE games but turn around and then say about the IE games: this was bad, that was bad, identifying was a chore, etc. It almost seems everybody hated the IE games everytime a topic like this pops ups.

I think it wasn't so much that it was bad, as that it didn't match people's PnP experiences. I didn't have a problem with the IE approach, and it's probably one of the easiest way to code up the identification process.

Edited October 29, 2012 by rjshae

[Mils]

Like with discovering the fire damage by attacking, say a weapon gives 30% magic resistance, only when that resistance is actually triggered, after a few spells (30% chance to reveal the property, since it has 30% chance to be effective) has been cast on the character wielding the weapon, is the effect revealed.

 

The game log could show a message along the lines of "character x revealed a new property of item y".

 

Convoluted? Maybe. But it would make the item immediately usable, but with its abilities hidden until discovered. That way, you wouldn't know you've found a truly epic item until you've discovered all its abilities. An item could have some descriptive text along the lines of "your feel a tingling sensation while holding the item", that would only disappear once all properties are discovered.

 

There should be an option to bring an item somewhere to identify it, in case you want to make sure there are no curses on it. Also, named items, and items with non-discoverable abilities (like spells), would need to be identified for full use.

 

For a long sword +1, you'd know once you've put it in your hand that it's a very finely balanced sword. At least if you know how to handle a sword.

 

Wild ideas.

 

Loving rjshae's idea.

 

 

Another option could be that you may have to quest to discover an ability of a particularly powerful item. For example if you found 'Flame Tongue', you would know it was a exceptional longsword, but you would have to find an old tome or research the weapon further in order to discover the phrase that causes the blade to become wreathed in magical flames.

 

For abilities like that you would not really find out by chance, unless such a phrase was inscribed upon the blade itself. Even then the phrase may be inscribed in some strange ancient runic language, thus sowing the seeds for a quest to find someone, or someplace, from where you can learn what the inscription says.

 

Of course how you'd actually code something like that into the game I have no idea.

[Shadenuat]

Unknown items, cursed items, talking items, teleporting items, possesing your soul items, sages, Lore, Identify, belts which change wearer's gender... all fine to me.

[Tauron]

divination magic, yes plz

[Utukka]

Would rather not have to deal with identify, yet to play a game that it doesn't feel like a chore or waste of time in the end. If you must have as a gold sink then ok but worrying about lore or reasearching the item, not for me, focus more on story/more interesting combat/noncombat mechanics.

 

Also for those suggesting a "discover as you use", that would just end up being extremely annoying in the long run in MY opinion. Last thing I want to do is have to use a million different items just to "figure" it out.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Utukka

[AGX-17]

No word yet. If there is such a spell, then I don't want the items (specifically armour/jewelry or weapons) to be unequippable. With the risk of a curse, but whatever.

 

I think it'd be nifty if specific magical abilities were discovered over use instead, with the option to take an item to a magic expert for full identification. For example, you find a mace. You can tell by the fact that your soul flows more freely through it that it has magical properties, but you're not sure what. You decide to wield it for now. After smacking a nasty critter with it and seeing that it does some fire damage, you "identify" that aspect of its enchantment yourself, and it appears on the item description. Or you find a helm, and after putting it on, discover you can see better at night; but maybe there's an on-use shield effect you hadn't figured out, and that has to be fully identified with an expert.

 

It'd be interesting if you had to consult local elders, historians, etc. to actually learn the name and description/history of an item. Just being able to identify the enchantments doesn't necessarily mean being able to identify the object or its history unless the entire history of the object is somehow recorded in every object that exists.

[Hassat Hunter]

Equip right away? Yes

 

Only identify using lore instead of magic or identification from a store (or it being very expensive). Fine by me.

I think identification as spell was the issue in the IE-games, not the identifcation process.

 

Also a lot of people here thinking using their new tinker-toy *right away* is a bad game mechanic. It isn't. It's just that you guys are impatient and needy, and can't stand having to carry around the unknown functional item for a few more hours before finding out what it does instead of using it's power right away in the dungeon you found it.

As I am no fan of instant-gratification for all and massive ego-stroking modern RPG's plague, I don't agree with said sentiment...