Quality of 3d character models and animations

[Hellfell]

I'm very excited that Project Eternity is going to be a 2.5d classic RPG. Yet nowadays, after so many beautiful games released, I found myself struggling to replay old school RPGs like Infinity games. I know that gameplay and story are crucial parts of an RPG, but presentation and graphics are also very important.

 

The devs released an environmental screenshot and I think they nailed this part. But I'm a bit worried about the 3d models and animations. Fluid combat moves and rich character models will make this game a modern and technological yet classic RPG.

 

Here are the things I'd like to see in this game:

 

- good-looking combat. Blocks and dodges and parries like in first Neverwinter Nights. Impactful strikes. I believe this will make combat not only tactical but also fun and rewarding to watch.

 

- finisher moves (DAO style). Im sure this is huge for emotional impact of combat. Nothing is better than pierce an enemy with a sword and kick him from it with a splat of blood (mwhaha). Or backstabbing rouge who finishes an enemy from behind. I think now is the right time to implement such things.

 

- nice character models. Yes, we will see character from distance yet it is still important to see polished models of pcs and npcs and their clothes/armor. What I expect is different hairstyles and colors, maybe tattoos. It would be incredible to be able to choose body shape like bulky and strong or slim and agile.

 

I don't say that obsidian should throw all the money they have on presentation but I'm sure they can find enough money to make combat feel great!

 

 

[Infiltrator_SF]

Combat needs to be responsive, foremost than anything, but that comes at the price of some animation, in particular, finisher moves. Say you're doing a long finishing move - your character is basically stuck in that animation until he's done.

 

Now, if the enemy is hitting him, he'll either twitch, or drop out of the animation - resulting in an awkward display, or he'll be invulnerable throughout the whole thing. Both outcomes are impractical when it comes to responsive and methodical combat, and that is why I am against such elaborated, hollywood presentations of combat - it may be fun to see the first time, but after the 20th, you realize that it's taking away from the responsiveness and tactics.

 

Parry and dodge animations should definitely be incorporated, but I doubt they can ever make them authentic due to the many angles and weapons one might get hit with (how do you animate parrying something from behind, at an angle opposite to your sword hand?).

 

Apart from having nice movement/combat, I want models to represent differnet models for helms, armors, boots etc. Picking primary and secondary colors like in IE games also helps make the party look like you want them to.

[Freshock]

I support the "good-looking combat" and "nice character models", but I'm not sure if I like finishing moves - it might be fun the first few times but after some fights it's getting kind of old. In some games finishing moves even make the battle worse, I've seen finishing moves that takes too much time and while performing them you are being attacked by surrounding NPC's. No fun.

[Rubicon]

They are using Unity 4's Mecanim system. http://video.unity3d.com/video/6428539/unity-4-using-mecanim I really think they are going to wow us. It can still be an isometric RPG and still look great. Its coming out in 2014 afterall, not 2002.

[Hellfell]

I was thinking about finishing moves and the game called Dishonored came to mind. In that FPS game, you can fight with a sword and make finishing moves. So these finishers are so fast that they take as much time as normal swing to execute yet they look gorgeous.

 

So in PE if a normal attack is 1 second long, a finishing move should also be 1 second long to avoid clunkiness and unresponsiveness.

[Frisk]

While stuff like "finishing moves" may be expected in a combat-oriented game, I really don't consider it important in a story-focused RPG. Sure, if they have the time and resources to add it, fine....but personally I would prefer their resources to be allocated elsewhere.

[jivex5k]

Dishonored is an awesome game...the finishers are badass, but it's also first person view.

Isometric cRPG...you probably won't get to see too much of that fancy finisher.

 

I'd rather them not worry too much about the special effects of the game and make sure they get the meat and potatoes right first.

 

Honestly I wouldn't care if there were no combat animations at all and they just showed your dice rolls in a combat log.

Edited October 23, 2012 by jivex5k

[Hassat Hunter]

Finisher moves? Heck no.

 

Animations? Yay. Also obviously seeing gear on your character, as much as is reasonable (ala probably not rings or belts, athough it'll be cool). I doubt you can even see tattoos, so don't bother with that either...

[Rabain]

Special attacks would be nice, even if they are not mapped to special attack abilities. I'd rather see those than finishers. Your character sometimes doing overhead instead of slash, slamming staff into the ground instead of just waving it about etc. I think they could fit into combat much better.

[rjshae]

- nice character models. Yes, we will see character from distance yet it is still important to see polished models of pcs and npcs and their clothes/armor. What I expect is different hairstyles and colors, maybe tattoos. It would be incredible to be able to choose body shape like bulky and strong or slim and agile.

This would not seem to be cost effective use of resources. For example, the Shadowrun Returns is using ~2,000 polygon models. I'd think that should be plenty at the scale this game is being presented.

[limith]

Graphics can be modded...look at JB3 Mod for DA:O. I would like to have realistic models though, ear placement on DA:O models is incorrect, I can set it to smallest and lowest position and it still doesn't reach the same height as the bottom of the nose.

[Uomoz]

They are using Unity 4's Mecanim system. http://video.unity3d...4-using-mecanim I really think they are going to wow us. It can still be an isometric RPG and still look great. Its coming out in 2014 afterall, not 2002.

 

That video makes me think that animation will probably be great indeed. YAY!

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Anims for critical hits in Infinity Engine games were pretty rad. I 'm thinking of those where you could see the enemy's limbs separate and fly all over the screen in the crimson mist of blood and bone fragments. One of the cons however was that it was only one animation assigned to all types of enemies, so after some time it became a bit boring. To some degree it was hilarious (afaik even a critical hit delivered with bare hands could have this effect on the enemy) and maybe a bit too gory. I'm not sure how the folks at Obsidian are planning to design PE's game mechanics/combat system (which heavily influences in-game animations, I guess) and whether or not they're going to utilise the concept of critical hits, but it would be lovely to see some finesse and juiciness not only in Player Character animations but also in those of the enemies. I'm thinking mainly of realistic slashing/piercing etc damage anims, maybe non-dissapearing arrows sticking out of bodies or fully penetrating vs. ricochetting crossbow bolts and Arquebus balls. Animations from Fallout come to my mind, to look no further...

Edited October 24, 2012 by Solviulnir the Soulbinder

[Exile2k4]

I think finishing moves would be great if they made them short - essentially the same speed/time duration as a normal hit, except the blow clearly penetrates/decapitates/severs etc. To me, this would give the combat more dynamism than if the characters just whack at each other until one falls over. I'd rather not see any lengthy "cool" finishing moves where one combatant cartwheels over another's head and spends the next ten seconds hacking them to pieces - those can be entertaining the first time, but they become repetitive.

 

I'd love to see detailed character models, great animation etc. in the game, but ultimately I guess it comes down to the resources they have and how much every feature costs them.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Exile2k4

[Frisk]

I am really curious regarding what level of detail we can expect to see in character and monster models.

 

I assume we will (presumably) not be zooming in to view the characters up close. That makes sense in a 3D environment like NWN2 or DA:O, but not when you have a "2.5D" isometric view. I really do not expect the characters to take up proportionally more space on the screen than in BG or PS:T - but we will have higher resolution and better looking characters - just how much better, that is the question.

 

If the character will be implemented as a regular polygon model, what kind of polygon count can we expect? Most certainly not anything like, say, Sheppard in Mass Effect, who was something like 20-25.000 polygons (including equipment). Something like that would be a complete overkill for something you will never be viewing up close.

 

So, what can we expect for the characters? I don't know...maybe 2000-4000, but that's just speculation - I expect we will be told at some point next year.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Frisk

[Pipyui]

I'd like finisher move animations, so long as they're short and don't, or very hardly, interupt combat. Varied combat animations like NWN had made combat feel a little more dynamic than the turn-based system might suggest.

As for character models, I look forward to seeing some pretty impressive characters. Using the 2.5d approach, I would think there should be enough room for some high-poly characters/creatures. I suspect though that this depends on how much vram is left after loading scenery.

[rjshae]

The background graphics look like they will be stunning and I assume the character animations will be visually appealing and anti-aliased. What intrigues me though is what the effects will look like. The old IE spell effects were clunky looking, even though they improved on the GoldBox games. The effects were greatly improved by the time of NWN2, but that game was pretty hard on the graphics engines of the time. I'm wondering what quality of graphics they are looking at for visual effects and what generation of GPU we'll need to drive them at a satisfactory rate?

Edited October 25, 2012 by rjshae

[Starglider]

Flashy finnishing moves are also helpful for putting together the game trailer.

[Infiltrator_SF]

Flashy finnishing moves are also helpful for putting together the game trailer.

 

Yes, of course.. (If the target audience are raging 15 year olds about to hit puberty.)

 

*To be read like Edwin line

[Hassat Hunter]

Does this game even need a trailer now?

 

Hmmmm... :/

[kabaliero]

More critical deaths pls. Various. Fallout 2 was nice for that. BGs just had 2 deaths.

Basic corpse on floor and gibbs. Not counting iced (petrified) and burned.

 

And YES. Dismemberment, PLEASE.

We miss it so hopelessly.

[pzp11]

Living animations on characters and their clothes robes tunics and clinging weapons on waist or back. Like diablo 3. And this applies to environment as well. I don't care about finishing moves but some variations in attacking/casting/shooting will be nice.

 

Having said that, stability and smooth frame rates are more important for me than anything when discussing graphics. That is, on a standard, 500-700 dollar value computer or its equivalent.

[TRX850]

Maybe characters have a high Level of Detail (LoD) on the inventory screen so you can see all their equipped items up close. Rotate the avatar to see cape/cloak/robe/tabard designs and armour detail. And a Low(-er) LoD for adventuring/combat/spellcasting animations.

 

There's something very special and very personal about outfitting your character, and seeing their accoutrements up close.

[Frisk]

Having said that, stability and smooth frame rates are more important for me than anything when discussing graphics. That is, on a standard, 500-700 dollar value computer or its equivalent.

 

Considering the pre-rendered background and relatively small size of character models on the screen, frame rates are not going to be an issue - even on machines that are not top-of-the-line today (or when the game will be released).

 

It would be nice to get a better view of the models on the inventory screen, but that would mean making one of the following three choices:

 

1) Have different LOD models for game and inventory screen (drawback: extra work)

 

2) Use only high-LOD models (drawback: unnecessary heavy in real-time)

 

3) Use only lower-LOD models (drawback: Inventory screen might look "ugly")

[pzp11]

I guess I was thinking of NWN2. I was thinking NWN1 was much better in design and more stable than its sequel. Maybe it got patched later but I don't know I got sick of the bugs and the 'improvements' which weren't that appealing personally.