Anti-Dragon Age 2?

[anubite]

I could write a novel about what was wrong with DA2, but the comparison between DA2 and KOTOR2 is actually a fascinating one. Both were developed in 11 months and both were disasters, but for completely different reasons. KOTOR2 is actually a good game, it just didn't work on release. DA2 worked on release, but its sales dropped off rapidly with word of mouth and stores were singing at EA for delivering an item to their shelves they couldn't even get rid of.

 

The critical breakdown of the game has been done by a few people, though they've all been apologists to Bioware. No one has torn into it enough to my liking.

 

1. The characters are trash. Absolute trash. Their motivations aren't consistent or developed significantly. Anders, Avelline and Isabella are perplexingly flat and bizarre at the same time. I really have no idea what they were thinking when they made that emo-elf companion.

 

A good example of this is Merril's story. She wants to be accepted by her clan but does things they can never accept, hoping they'll like her for doing them. She stick around with you because, you know, she can. And then you have the option to brutally murder her entire clan if you say something arbitrarily different. And she's fine with that. Hardly says a word over it.

 

2. The themes and core stories are not integrated well (one core theme is family, but your whole family is dead by act 3 and it doesn't seem to matter). The core plot doesn't really make sense (from a political view - why house dangerous armed refugees in your capital?). Aspects of the story, like raising money to go on an expedition, were done better in BioWare's older titles (like ****ing BG2). The time skips are horribly jarring. Kirkwall, the city, is not developed at all. "It was built by slaves." And that's all you get the entire game.

 

3. Asset recycling. You literally go to the same beach/cave/house 3-7 times for completely different tasks in different spatial locations in different time periods.

 

4. Combat is wave-based, attrition-based. On the hardest difficulty, you win by walking backwards and chipping away at that guy's 100000000000 life (to kill the dragon boss on the highest difficulty literally takes well over half an hour of doing this). The combat is mystifying, without a sense of impact, because your characters act with the finesse of an anime superhero, flinging their staves around like light sabers.

 

5. Itemization is awful (you cannot allocate attributes for your characters how you want, because gear requires a dictated amount of primary stat to wield). Character building in awful (you basically have three means to develop your characters for combat, none of which are particuarly interesting or exciting).

 

6. Choices have no impact (you fight the same bosses, encounter the same conflict resolutions no matter what you say or do). Choices from DA1 were integrated poorly. BioWare retconned every again too, even if you kill certain characters in DA1, you'll be seeing them again in DA2.

 

7. Exploration is non-existent. It's not fun. This is a result of 3.

 

8. Immersion-breaking stupidity (you're a mage in a city where being a mage is a quality fit for imprisonment) everywhere. The writing is completely inconsistent, confusing, or just bad.

Edited October 30, 2012 by anubite

[NOK222]

Kotor 2...you know that they actually cared about making the game, that it wasn't a cash grab.

 

I played KOTOR 2 before KOTOR on a whim, I find the sequel more fascinating. I wonder how it would have turned out with another year of development?

 

Probably the best game ever.

[Volourn]

KOTOR2 was a cash grab. That's why it was just a mere sequel that was merely average just like the oirginal.

 

KOTOR2, no matter what, would never be 'best ever'. That''s a joke and an isnult to Obsidian's tow best games - FO:NV and MOTB.

[Lorfean]

KOTOR2 was a cash grab. That's why it was just a mere sequel that was merely average just like the oirginal.

Disagreed. And you ignored the first part of his sentence -- both might have been cash grabs from the publishers' point of view but I think that, comparing the two games, it is definitely a valid observation that KotOR2 seems to have been developed with a lot more care than DA2 was. There's probably a multitude of reasons for that, but I think Obsidian can be (and should be) proud of KotOR2, whereas DA2 has very few redeemable qualities that BioWare can look back on with pride.

 

KOTOR2, no matter what, would never be 'best ever'. That''s a joke and an isnult to Obsidian's tow best games - FO:NV and MOTB.

Agreed. Though, purely looking at the way it approached the setting and raised questions about its core concepts of the light and dark sides of The Force, etc. it is defintiely one of the best Star Wars games out there. If not the best.

[Nepenthe]

I've been enjoying Gorth's comments on his DA2 playthrough, since he seems to have approached it with a genuinely open mind, something most (including probably myself in spite of my best wishes) have been unable to do. I think it's highlighted that the game actually has quite a few redeeming qualities, even if it fails to gel.

 

In fact, I'd take a villain (I'd put some caveats here, but they're a bit spoilerish) over DAO and ME3 type introduced at last second faceless opponents any day. I hope that's something we're going to see more from. I still think the Boss from Pool of Radiance was a wonderful concept.

[HoonDing]

I'll play DA3 if I can kill Isabella in it. Preferably by hanging, drawing and quartering.

[Majek]

I wish i could've done this to Anders.

[anubite]

KOTOR2 was a cash grab. That's why it was just a mere sequel that was merely average just like the oirginal.

 

KOTOR2, no matter what, would never be 'best ever'. That''s a joke and an isnult to Obsidian's tow best games - FO:NV and MOTB.

 

I think the main difference between KOTOR2 and DA2, while both being 'let's make a game in under a year and reap massive profits on the name of franchise alone', is that Obsidian is competent has workers who like making fun games and that BioWare is full of people who don't want to play a fun game (like Hepler) or don't know how to make one.

[NOK222]

'let's make a game in under a year and reap massive profits on the name of franchise alone'

 

That was LucasArts' thinking, not Obsidian. I'm sure Obsidian would have actually loved more time.

[Nonek]

SPOILERS for those still experiencing the story.

 

I've been enjoying Gorth's comments on his DA2 playthrough, since he seems to have approached it with a genuinely open mind, something most (including probably myself in spite of my best wishes) have been unable to do. I think it's highlighted that the game actually has quite a few redeeming qualities, even if it fails to gel.

 

In fact, I'd take a villain (I'd put some caveats here, but they're a bit spoilerish) over DAO and ME3 type introduced at last second faceless opponents any day. I hope that's something we're going to see more from. I still think the Boss from Pool of Radiance was a wonderful concept.

 

I found the villain lady ultimately unsatisfying Nepenthe, mainly because she's just a slave for the mcguffin rather than having any kind of realistic human motivation, apart from the the massively overused and simplified, "mages are dangerous," backstory. The mcguffin invalidated any motivation or logical impetus. Obviuously there was was not much of a logical reason in the conflict anyway, with the mages fighting for freedom and equality in feudal kingdoms (so they can go back to the nobilities bondage rather than the templars.) Even so I expected far better from the makers of Master Li in Jade Empire, who was quite impressively well reasoned.

 

I'd rather have an antagonist like him, Irenicus, Kreia or any of many others, who are shown interacting with the protagonist throughout the game rather than one introduced when it's mostly over. Whose motivations are human and logical rather than nothing more than mcguffin born madness. I did not feel I had accomplished anything when approaching the last battle, other than pity for the lady and a fair amount of disgust for the entire conflict and its staging ground, as well as having the patience of a saint for putting up with the waves.

 

Still as I say, it passed the time for sixty hours or so which is I suppose its raison d'etre fulfilled, so i'm not as passionately derisive as others.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Nonek

[Serrano]

KOTOR2 was a cash grab. That's why it was just a mere sequel that was merely average just like the oirginal.

 

KOTOR2, no matter what, would never be 'best ever'. That''s a joke and an isnult to Obsidian's tow best games - FO:NV and MOTB.

 

I think the main difference between KOTOR2 and DA2, while both being 'let's make a game in under a year and reap massive profits on the name of franchise alone', is that Obsidian is competent has workers who like making fun games and that BioWare is full of people who don't want to play a fun game (like Hepler) or don't know how to make one.

 

We need a "dislike this" button. Bioware are competent and have made some of the better RPGs of the past two decades. They also made the game engines that Obsidian used for kotor 2 and nwn2. I prefer Obsidian games because I prefer Obsidian's style but lets not forget that one of the reasons Obsidian put so much work into kotor 2 was because it was Obsidian''s first title and that they needed to make an impact with it. I'm sure the DA2 team worked hard but I doubt they had as much riding on it.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Serrano

[melkathi]

 

We need a "dislike this" button. Bioware are competent and have made some of the better RPGs of the past two decades. They also made the game engines that Obsidian used for kotor 2 and nwn2. I prefer Obsidian games because I prefer Obsidian's style but lets not forget that one of the reasons Obsidian put so much work into kotor 2 was because it was Obsidian''s first title and that they needed to make an impact with it. I'm sure the DA2 team worked hard but I doubt they had as much riding on it.

 

That means they will not put equal work into Project Eternity as it is not their first title and they have already made their impact?

Or does it mean that neither Obsidian nor Bioware employees have enough pride in their creations to try and make a great game without market pressure?

[Volourn]

or the fact that out of the 100+ BIo employees the vast majority of them are employees and therefore do as they are told whether they like it or not.

 

Plus, there's the fact, that KOTOR2 (and KOTOR1) are NOT better than DA2. Not even close. The fact that neither of those opverrated games has Varric in it is enoguht o make them loservilles.

[Serrano]

We need a "dislike this" button. Bioware are competent and have made some of the better RPGs of the past two decades. They also made the game engines that Obsidian used for kotor 2 and nwn2. I prefer Obsidian games because I prefer Obsidian's style but lets not forget that one of the reasons Obsidian put so much work into kotor 2 was because it was Obsidian's first title and that they needed to make an impact with it. I'm sure the DA2 team worked hard but I doubt they had as much riding on it.

 

That means they will not put equal work into Project Eternity as it is not their first title and they have already made their impact?

 

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. No doubt Obsidian and Bioware work hard on all their projects and they both have a lot of pride in what they do, but Obsidian's job security isn't at risk with Eternity to the degree it was with kotor 2.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't think the reason PE was made was to be "anti-DA2", but rather "pro-Great RPG".

 

Although Boware's obsession with creating a cinematic game rather than a RPG probably helped get some people to contribute. It got me to throw in $60 more than I originally intended.

[Nepenthe]

SPOILERS for those still experiencing the story.

 

I've been enjoying Gorth's comments on his DA2 playthrough, since he seems to have approached it with a genuinely open mind, something most (including probably myself in spite of my best wishes) have been unable to do. I think it's highlighted that the game actually has quite a few redeeming qualities, even if it fails to gel.

 

In fact, I'd take a villain (I'd put some caveats here, but they're a bit spoilerish) over DAO and ME3 type introduced at last second faceless opponents any day. I hope that's something we're going to see more from. I still think the Boss from Pool of Radiance was a wonderful concept.

 

I found the villain lady ultimately unsatisfying Nepenthe, mainly because she's just a slave for the mcguffin rather than having any kind of realistic human motivation, apart from the the massively overused and simplified, "mages are dangerous," backstory. The mcguffin invalidated any motivation or logical impetus. Obviuously there was was not much of a logical reason in the conflict anyway, with the mages fighting for freedom and equality in feudal kingdoms (so they can go back to the nobilities bondage rather than the templars.) Even so I expected far better from the makers of Master Li in Jade Empire, who was quite impressively well reasoned.

 

I'd rather have an antagonist like him, Irenicus, Kreia or any of many others, who are shown interacting with the protagonist throughout the game rather than one introduced when it's mostly over. Whose motivations are human and logical rather than nothing more than mcguffin born madness. I did not feel I had accomplished anything when approaching the last battle, other than pity for the lady and a fair amount of disgust for the entire conflict and its staging ground, as well as having the patience of a saint for putting up with the waves.

 

Still as I say, it passed the time for sixty hours or so which is I suppose its raison d'etre fulfilled, so i'm not as passionately derisive as others.

You're right, of course, and the reason I mentioned the caveats - I just think that it's another one of those things that is conceptually good in DA2 (and somewhat ME2) yet fails in execution, as opposed to things that were already conceptually bad in, say, DAO and ME3. Nowhere near the examples you mentioned, of course.

[BruceVC]

 

We need a "dislike this" button. Bioware are competent and have made some of the better RPGs of the past two decades. They also made the game engines that Obsidian used for kotor 2 and nwn2. I prefer Obsidian games because I prefer Obsidian's style but lets not forget that one of the reasons Obsidian put so much work into kotor 2 was because it was Obsidian''s first title and that they needed to make an impact with it. I'm sure the DA2 team worked hard but I doubt they had as much riding on it.

 

I agree, I enjoyed both DA1&2 and the ME series. I didn't think they were as complex, fun or engaging as BG1&2 or the NWN series. But they were still fun, thats all I ask for when I play an RPG. I don't expect inspiration, I expect entertainment. Its a game after all?

 

As far as DA2 is concerned I read all the bad reviews and didn't expect too much, you will be amazed how less judgmental you are when you play a game with no expectations. It becomes more fun than you realize. Also Isabella was smoking hot. I did see the obvious shortcuts, like the dungeon rehash and the fact that enemies appeared out of now where but I am confidant that Bioware won't make the same mistake again with DA3.

 

Finally I am expecting big things from PE, basically a BG2 experience. So I'll be very disappointed if they don't deliver

[anubite]

KOTOR2 was a cash grab. That's why it was just a mere sequel that was merely average just like the oirginal.

 

KOTOR2, no matter what, would never be 'best ever'. That''s a joke and an isnult to Obsidian's tow best games - FO:NV and MOTB.

 

I think the main difference between KOTOR2 and DA2, while both being 'let's make a game in under a year and reap massive profits on the name of franchise alone', is that Obsidian is competent has workers who like making fun games and that BioWare is full of people who don't want to play a fun game (like Hepler) or don't know how to make one.

 

We need a "dislike this" button. Bioware are competent and have made some of the better RPGs of the past two decades. They also made the game engines that Obsidian used for kotor 2 and nwn2. I prefer Obsidian games because I prefer Obsidian's style but lets not forget that one of the reasons Obsidian put so much work into kotor 2 was because it was Obsidian''s first title and that they needed to make an impact with it. I'm sure the DA2 team worked hard but I doubt they had as much riding on it.

 

You can voice your discontent without a stupid button. I roll my eyes at the 'like' button as it is.

 

BioWare has made two great games and one good game in their entire career.

 

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 were both 'great games' for their time and still stand up to this day.

 

KOTOR1 is a 'good' game but it doesn't shine quite as bright as it probably could.

 

Every other BioWare game, which I have all played, have been a slow descent into mediocrity, or were already mediocre upon release.

 

NWN1 (this was terrible and only playable for its multiplayer).

Jade Empire (some of the worst combat system design I've ever had the misfortune to suffer through; the story is also insipid and grossly predictable, it has "BioWare's first xbox port" written all over it)

DA:O (mediocrity defined, a plodding shallow combat system, hypersexuality [the ****ing climax is a decision over whether you should **** Morrigan])

DA:A (failed to address what made DA:O a step back from BG2)

ME1 (bad gunplay, small interior spaces to explore, the first major oversimplification of dialogue branching)

ME2 (instead of improving the game, they just made it into a TPS and slapped as much **** and ass as they could everywhere)

 

BioWare hasn't made a solid title since KOTOR1 and their latest attempts (DA and ME) at recapturing what they them good failed miserably. We don't owe them anything. They don't understand what made their initial games so successful and fun and see themselves fit to tell us that it's our fault their games are bad now. We don't owe them any respect or privilege - they think they can continue to pass off the same story to us in slightly different format, with a half-baked combat system, and we'll just look past it because they made sure to make the camera zoom in on somebody's ass.

 

DA2 and ME3 should have solidified in your mind that they are irredeemable. The quality of a bioware product now is that of a call of duty clone.

Edited October 31, 2012 by anubite

[alanschu]

Jade Empire (some of the worst combat system design I've ever had the misfortune to suffer through; the story is also insipid and grossly predictable, it has "BioWare's first xbox port" written all over it)

 

After KOTOR that DOES seem bad! (I've never played JE though).

 

 

EDIT: As for what made their earlier games fun, I think it's important to note that there's nothing really resembling consensus for what makes the IE games so good (you can see it on the PE forums here)

Edited October 31, 2012 by alanschu

[GhostofAnakin]

The quality of BioWare games seems to have started to decline right around the time they hired Alanschu. Coincidence?

[alanschu]

>.>

<.<

 

(It's actually a reasonable timeline for those that have been disappointed with BioWare... lol)

[NOK222]

Jade Empire (some of the worst combat system design I've ever had the misfortune to suffer through; the story is also insipid and grossly predictable, it has "BioWare's first xbox port" written all over it)

 

After KOTOR that DOES seem bad! (I've never played JE though).

 

 

EDIT: As for what made their earlier games fun, I think it's important to note that there's nothing really resembling consensus for what makes the IE games so good (you can see it on the PE forums here)

 

Jade Empire is a good game, it was a game you guys wanted to make and by god you did, you had no looming publisher who owned you looking a for a quick cash grab. The game may not have been everyone' cup of tea, but sweet Jehovah, it was still a complete game. I have only fond memories of Jade Empire.

Edited October 31, 2012 by NKKKK

[Majek]

It wasn't a complete game. I couldn't use Monkey paw style without modding the game. BOOOOOO!

[jivex5k]

I'd just like to chime in and say:

In my eyes DA2 failed where DA1 suceeded.

The biggest tell: You can't zoom out for a tactical view in DA2...as soon as I realized this I thought "oh no...."

[Volourn]

Lety's rate BIO gaems sicne people are rating themw rongly.

 

NWN - best overall game ever

 

BG2 - top epic game

 

DA/DA2/ME/ME2/JE - very good games that are underrated

 

ME3 - okay game that not as good as its predcessors

 

BG1 - really fun atb reklerase but does not hold up over time... this game would be trashed if it was released in 2012 and not b/c of 'dated graphics'

 

KOTOR1 - extremely overrated. Average game, and basically a wannabe rip off of NWN OC