[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

Feminism in video games has never been about making good games. It's been about changing gamers and using videogames as a platform for championing social causes.

If games are doing stupid, impractical things to pander to the overactive libidos and misogynistic tendencies of teenage boys, then I figure video games SHOULD change. Doing stupid and impractical things just to show some skin is not a virtue. It is not a virtue for a character to excuse their clothing with "It's entirely practical and your western ways are so ridiculous" when that kind of underwear is silly and impractical in the context of close quarters hand-to-hand combat.

 

Mods completely invalidate the argument at hand. The devs have an artistic vision; if you don't like it you can mod the game to make the art more to you liking. If you like sexy boob armor (which I don't) then there's a mod for that. If you like to play in a world where everybody wears the exact same underwear for some reason then fill your boots, there's a mod for that.

Mods don't change the core game. You seem to act as though THIS topic is, for some reason, entirely off-limits. And yet, somehow, here you are, on a forum meant for discussing video games. Somewhere along the line you consider certain topics worth discussing, rather than sitting around and saying "Well, that's certainly a developer vision". Where's the line about what people can and can't criticize?

 

Project Eternity -- the game this thread is about -- is not a console game.

So if every single character walked around entirely nude for no apparent reason in the standard release but fans made a clothing mod, everything would be fine and there'd be no issue?

 

We are talking about representation of women in videogames, which Obsidian has a track record of doing very well. One character wearing slightly revealing underwear that is actually pretty normal by our standards is a far cry from being unrealistic, sexist, or presenting "a cast stuffed with highly sexualized" characters.

It wouldn't be if the same character didn't act as though the underwear was entirely practical, specifically for close quarters hand-to-hand combat. It isn't.

 

And that doesn't nullify that fact that you're using OTHER characters like Kreia to justify Handmaiden's Undies. Other characters don't factor in or make her undies any better.

[Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin]

Colored text is annoying.

 

That tangent aside, females do have it bad in games. For a start, most games seem to be made and marketed towards males, which creates a male-centric bias. This isn't to say all games are bad or sexist, it's just something that needs to be acknowledged. And it's not something that is a problem with an individual game, more the gaming industry as a whole. For example, for every female protagonist in a game you could name, I could name half a dozen male ones. This isn't to say that every game with a male protagonist is sexist, or that those with a female protagonist aren't, it's just something you notice when you look at the bigger picture.

And in products targeted at females most of protagonists are females.

So how does this link to females and their fanserviciness. Well, you could look at a girl running around in her underwear in a game and say that it's not sexist, as within that story it's justified. And, whilst there's a strong sexual element to it, it'd be tough to say that that was all there was to the female character, or that the sexual elements ruin the game. However, you could look at the amount of time females are used for fanservice in games and compare it to the amount of times men are; if you did so, you'd find that females would win by an overwhelming amount. Again, this doesn't mean that fanservice involving females is automatically unjustifiable whilst fanservice involving men is the height of feminism; it's just something you spot when you look at the bigger picture.

And impossible to change it. I've given up long time ago. Also there is no point; entertainment industry is huge and constantly growing, there is place for everything. Stupid fanservice, ambitious creations, economy simulators with more than 40 different resources, etc.

And so what would the solution be? I mean, once you've identified a trend, one that you think is unfair on women, the solution is kind of difficult. Does one have an enforced affirmative action in terms of men and women with fanservice? Does one try to steer clear of fanservice altogether? Does one dismiss these issues and simply focus on accomodating supply and demand? If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them. If hardly anyone asks for men running around in their underwear, then it seems pointless putting them in.

Don't play/watch/etc things that annoy you. Generic Modern Shooters/harem anime/Dubstep/Marvel and DC annoy me and I don't demand they change to appease me.(albeit I make fun out of them)

There is seldom a clear answer, but in the case of Project Eternity, I think it's not hard to find a compromise. It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always.

I don't see point of BMI/fat/body type debate. PE is not set in XXI century world, its low magic renessaince world, most of people back in XV century couldn't afford to be fat.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin

[D3xter]

I would like to start by pointing out that no matter what you're arguing, no matter what the debate, when you put the word "offend" or "offensive" in quotation marks and you aren't quoting it or talking about the word itself, you look like a douche. I can accept that you have a different opinion to me or the person you're talking to, but dismissing the idea that they're legitimately offended with such and obvious and passive-aggressive method is just disrespectful. It also undermines any point you're trying to make by painting yourself as someone who is unsympathetic. If you're actively discussing what it means to be offended then that's fine. If you're doing it just to dne snidey towards those that claim to be offended, then you're a prick.

This insane belief that you aren't allowed to offend anyone ever (and beyond that, that a product has to appeal to everyone) is frankly beyond me and I don't even know where it comes from.

For instance your pink text offends my eyes, yet you are still allowed to do whatever the hell you want, there is no "right to not be offended" written down anywhere.

 

You are invariably going to offend SOMEONE by almost anything you do, for instance there are people offended by the basic principle of comics, games, computers or even worse computer RPGs existing, heck even the Internet: http://www.examiner....counter-protest

http://www.huffingto..._n_1531863.html

http://en.wikipedia....ial_video_games

 

Portal 2 was "offensive" to some people: http://www.gamesrada...on-controversy/

 

The thing is, everyone has the right to be offended all day long, they can even put protests together, but that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to dictate what other people are allowed to say, make or do or forbid people from doing those things.

 

There are even rape jokes which may offend some people but aren't banned for that very reason,

is especially good at that.

 

Some of the other stuff you say is so full of feminist rhetoric that I'm not even sure what to say...

 

"games seem to be marketed towards males" no ****, it's how markets work, products are generally marketed towards the people that buy them.

There's also games mostly targeted at female audiences, although in the west they are mostly of the "casual" variety and specific brands like "The Sims" since those have proven to sell exceptionally well to said demographic, but in glorious Japan, there's entire sub-genres of games being targeted at girls too: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Otome_game

 

"problem with ... the gaming industry as a whole" o_O

 

There's a pretty strong difference between real people in real scenarios doing what's actually practical and a videogame developer using it as an excuse to put a female character into lacey underpants. There is absolutely no practical reason for those underpants to be lacey frilly sexualized things, and they're trying to treat this character like she's entirely practical. It's dumb. With the Twi'lek twin bounty hunters you got the idea that their character matched the fact that they were walking around showing massive cleavage, with the dancer outfit you have the usual Hutt slobbishness. With the Handmaiden Undies there really is no good reason for them to look the way they do and there are a couple good reasons for them to NOT look like that.

Are you seriously debating the design of the underwear of a single character in a single game now? Like ones you would likely not even come to see under most circumstances? Did you just dedicate three whole posts to that?

Edited October 20, 2012 by D3xter

[Nidrolok]

And so what would the solution be? I mean, once you've identified a trend, one that you think is unfair on women, the solution is kind of difficult. Does one have an enforced affirmative action in terms of men and women with fanservice? Does one try to steer clear of fanservice altogether? Does one dismiss these issues and simply focus on accomodating supply and demand? If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them. If hardly anyone asks for men running around in their underwear, then it seems pointless putting them in.

 

There is seldom a clear answer, but in the case of Project Eternity, I think it's not hard to find a compromise. It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

To be perfectly frank with you I find the way you seem to perceive games absolutely abhorrent, and how someone could have such a strong sense of self entitlement is beyond me. The characters physical properties and personalities should first and foremost make sense tonally and stylistically, resonating with the setting and story. They should not be made to fill some quota of fat/slutty/ethnic characters that the game have to achieve to be PC. If there are characters that are first and foremost written as people with relevance to the game but happen to be fat for example then that would be great, but coercing developers to include more minorities in a game just for the sake of it just isn't sound.

[rjshae]

I'd like to see an intelligent humanoid race that changes to the opposite gender as it gets older; a sequential hermaphrodite. It'd be interesting to see what we humans make of it in terms of our various gender biases.

[Monte Carlo]

This is definitely a generational thing.

 

I'm in my mid-forties and I'm sure, by some of the standards here, a sexist dinosaur. I am untroubled by Xena warrior-princess tropes (which are more knowing than some give them credit for), admit to liking sexually appealing imagery of women (and, having been married to one for twenty years, very happily, puts that into context) and find some of the comments in this thread the sort of cringe-inducing Gramscian BS I had to endure at university in the very late 80s'. It was BS then and it is BS now.

 

Because folks will always be attracted to other folks, of any gender, and an idealised version of that attractiveness will exist.

 

But... and but.

 

I watched a James Bond movie with my son last week. Roger Moore. The Bond I grew up with in the seventies. The sexism was awful. Having not seen that movie for ten years I was unprepared for it. I'm hardly thin-skinned or politically-correct... but I didn't want my son viewing women like that.

 

That, whether you like it or not, is progress in the real world. It takes time, little incremental steps.

 

So everybody chill. Women will make choices about their sexuality that feminists will blame on external socio- political pressure. Fine, but it don't make it true because politics is about power. It has been since Eve plucked that apple, baby, and always will be.

[Ieo]

That, whether you like it or not, is progress in the real world. It takes time, little incremental steps.

 

Well, kudos about the James Bond movie.

 

Sudden sociopolitical change is always historically violent. No one really wants that, though sometimes it's unavoidable, so the generational-cultural change is a slow immersive burn across as many communication channels as it takes. The gaming industry won't be spared this either, ultimately.

 

It's interesting to see "women tropes" specifically highlighted these days in even niche venues like this. It reminds me very much of the intense, highly publicized analysis of Pixar's film Brave, their first film to feature a female lead. One such analysis included this:

“The fact that we have to put this much analysis into this movie is really a symptom of the problem,” Orenstein says. “I just want to see such a broad range of female characters onscreen that we don’t have to have a discussion every time one comes out.”

 

Eventually, there will come a time when this sort of thing is never talked about anymore in common conversation because the norms have so slowly shifted.

 

Anyway, I do want to thank Josh & Obsidian for taking these small steps. They do add up.

[Monte Carlo]

Interestingly, the only debate about Brave here in the UK was that it was hi-jacked by Scottish Nationalists.

 

Of course, the Nats would hi-jack a small sandwich if they thought it would help their cause, let alone a *very* American animated movie.

[Ieo]

Interestingly, the only debate about Brave here in the UK was that it was hi-jacked by Scottish Nationalists.

 

Of course, the Nats would hi-jack a small sandwich if they thought it would help their cause, let alone a *very* American animated movie.

 

I wondered how that movie would be viewed overseas. I mean, I know it was a huge deal for the Scottish tourism board thinger--dunno how that turned out.

[temporalTemptation]

And so what would the solution be? I mean, once you've identified a trend, one that you think is unfair on women, the solution is kind of difficult. Does one have an enforced affirmative action in terms of men and women with fanservice? Does one try to steer clear of fanservice altogether? Does one dismiss these issues and simply focus on accomodating supply and demand? If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them. If hardly anyone asks for men running around in their underwear, then it seems pointless putting them in.

 

There is seldom a clear answer, but in the case of Project Eternity, I think it's not hard to find a compromise. It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

To be perfectly frank with you I find the way you seem to perceive games absolutely abhorrent, and how someone could have such a strong sense of self entitlement is beyond me. The characters physical properties and personalities should first and foremost make sense tonally and stylistically, resonating with the setting and story. They should not be made to fill some quota of fat/slutty/ethnic characters that the game have to achieve to be PC. If there are characters that are first and foremost written as people with relevance to the game but happen to be fat for example then that would be great, but coercing developers to include more minorities in a game just for the sake of it just isn't sound.

 

I'm reading what I wrote, trying to come up with a way of understanding how you came to the conclusions you did about me and my beliefs. No, genuinely, I thought I'd written something abhorrent, that had genuinely offended you. However, as I looked back at what I wrote and at what you'd written, I realised that you were kinda reading things that weren't there. There's reading between the lines and there's making stuff up, after all.

 

I don't see how you got the idea that I'm self-entitled or the idea that I'm coercing developers. Because I'm stating my thoughts on this matter? That's what this forum is designed for, to discuss what we would and would not like to see in this game (among other things). Also, where do you get the idea that I'm saying we should fill some quota of certain types of women? I'm merely stating that in a realistic setting, these types of people are likely to exist and that it's not unreasonable for some people to expect to see such people in the game. I'll concede entirely that it would be unreasonable to demand this. But to simply point out that, hey, sometimes games kinda look sexist and I really hope this one isn't... Please, tell me, where's the harm in that?

[temporalTemptation]

I would like to start by pointing out that no matter what you're arguing, no matter what the debate, when you put the word "offend" or "offensive" in quotation marks and you aren't quoting it or talking about the word itself, you look like a douche. I can accept that you have a different opinion to me or the person you're talking to, but dismissing the idea that they're legitimately offended with such and obvious and passive-aggressive method is just disrespectful. It also undermines any point you're trying to make by painting yourself as someone who is unsympathetic. If you're actively discussing what it means to be offended then that's fine. If you're doing it just to dne snidey towards those that claim to be offended, then you're a prick.

This insane belief that you aren't allowed to offend anyone ever (and beyond that, that a product has to appeal to everyone) is frankly beyond me and I don't even know where it comes from.

For instance your pink text offends my eyes, yet you are still allowed to do whatever the hell you want, there is no "right to not be offended" written down anywhere.

 

It would appear that people putting words in my mouth is very common these days. Please tell me where I said that you aren't allowed to offend anyone? No, seriously, I do not recall saying that. In fact, believe it or not, I believe sometimes people can kick up a bit of a fuss about nothing. However, I also believe that some people do actually have a point when they call something offensive, and that there is something wrong with it. The only way to discern which is which, to my knowledge, is by having a discussion on it and trying to figure out where the offence comes from and whether it's legitimate and justified. Dismissing any accusation of offensiveness right out of hand stops this discussion and is, therefore, what I was complaining about.

 

Of course, if you think that all forms of offence are meaningless, that's a different issue; one I'd be willing to explore with you, if you'd let me. However, if that's what you truly believe, I request that you be clear about it.

[NOK222]

Temporal, welcome to the forums.

 

Um, how did this turn into "Hey, I want sensible armors for warrior women." To "Shut up yer feminazi, I want Obsidian to show me da boobies!"

[Joukehainen]

I feel like all I'm doing is re-quoting, because new people keep jumping in with the very same circular logic, false equivalences and groundless accusations without actually reading all the pages which contain multiple thorough responses to most of these knee-jerk reactions.

 

What it amounts to is censorship and that is something I oppose.

 

I'd like to quote a rapper's comments on the issue with comedian Daniel Tosh, because it applies here:

 

"This is not a free speech issue. As a comic (or poet, or rapper, or singer or whatever), you have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say on stage. But your audience has that same right. If you say something hurtful or offensive, they can heckle you, call you out, start internet campaigns to ban you from clubs, whatever. And you have to deal with that.

 

No one is trying to make it illegal for a comic to say offensive ****; we’re just trying to hold you accountable. That’s a huge difference, and people hiding behind the “free speech” argument are really missing the point. I want you to take chances on stage, to challenge people, even to deal with hecklers harshly—but there are a million ways to do that without joking about something that is extremely hurtful to so many people. Less offensive ways, sure, but funnier ways too."

 

In that same vein, there are many ways to make a character, and succumbing to sexist, racist, or offensive stereotypes that represent a discriminated group in society (that's in OUR world, not in the diegetic game world) are neither clever nor fulfilling. For example, out of all the sorts of characters the makers of the recent Transformers movies could chose to make for a transformer, they chose, among others, to make two absurdly racist stereotypes. It's lazy and caters to the lowest common denominator.

 

In the same way, a persistent representation of women in games as sexual objects is poor fare for as deep and expansive a genre as RPGs can/should be.

 

And allow me to also point out, yet again, that I think there is no need to worry too much about the representation of female characters in respect to PE, because the team looks to be doing a great job with it.

[oldhomehaibane]

By the way, TERA isn't a very good example since a lot of the males are looking like this too, that's just the Japanese way of not giving a **** xD

 

Not really. Even when men are sexualized in popular culture it is typically not nearly to the same degree that women are. See: http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/tera-followup-no-male-castanics-are-not-as-bad-lots-of-pictures/

 

 

The above comic does a pretty good job of summing up why I think it's so important not to have oversexualized female characters. It just seems insulting to women that, in so many games, male characters get to be so badass and then they're placed alongside female characters that, frankly, look ridiculous/embarrassing. As has previously been said by others in this thread, though, I feel pretty confident that Obsidian will handle this issue correctly.

[temporalTemptation]

Colored text is annoying.

 

And in products targeted at females most of protagonists are females.

 

And impossible to change it. I've given up long time ago. Also there is no point; entertainment industry is huge and constantly growing, there is place for everything. Stupid fanservice, ambitious creations, economy simulators with more than 40 different resources, etc.

 

Don't play/watch/etc things that annoy you. Generic Modern Shooters/harem anime/Dubstep/Marvel and DC annoy me and I don't demand they change to appease me.(albeit I make fun out of them)

 

I don't see point of BMI/fat/body type debate. PE is not set in XXI century world, its low magic renessaince world, most of people back in XV century couldn't afford to be fat.

 

What are you talking about? Pink text is delicious!

 

Also, your comment about female-targetted products is an interesting one. It reminds me of an old feminist problem. Basically, there's the assumption that if something isn't explicitely defined female, then it's male. I don't mean in terms of inanimate objects but of- well, let's talk about games. If they aren't a game for girls, then consciously or not, they're assumed to be a game for boys. You might dismiss this as feminist nonsense, but it's not that people are consciously thinking about aiming their product towards dudes; it's just that when they think of their target audience, they think of someone like them, and as most people in the creative process are male, the female perspective falls to the wayside. This is, of course, a great simplification of the problem, but I'm sure you can see how this relates to the gaming industry as a whole and what I meant by looking at the bigger picture.

 

Meh! I'm not sure it's impossible to change. I mean, heck, Project Eternity is funded! Just think, only a few years ago, someone worn down by cynicism of the gaming industry would've said that it would be impossible for such a game to get made. But the industry is ever-changing, as you said, and if so then why not try to make sure that it changes for the better. Also, y'know, if you don't approve of my futile eforts, feel free to ignore my posts. After all, that's what you suggest I do with things that annoy me.

 

And, yeah, the idea that one should avoid things that annoy them makes a certain degree of sense. Of course, that can sometimes leave one with very little that they can enjoy. And it's, as I mentioned in my original post, not the individual examples that annoy me, but the larger picture and overall trends. On top of that, because media (in all forms) shapes our perception of the world, just ignoring it would be a lot like burying my head in the sand. But, again, if how I choose to allocate my personal time and effort annoys or offends you, do your best to ignore my writings; bright and pink, though they may be.

 

Yeah, I get your last point, but come on! Doesn't it break your suspension of disbelief just a little bit to see a noblewoman from ye olde times being all slim and sexy? I mean, back in those times, having some fat on your bones was seen as attractive, as it showed that you were prosperous. I understand that it's not completely outside the realms of possibility that they might have the same beauty standards as us; but as you said yourself "PE is not set in XXI century world, its low magic renessaince world," which... umm... yeah, sort of supports my argument about focussing on having it make sense within the world, rather than worrying what the audience thinks of it, whether in terms of political correctness or fanservice.

[Joukehainen]

By the way, TERA isn't a very good example since a lot of the males are looking like this too, that's just the Japanese way of not giving a **** xD

 

Not really. Even when men are sexualized in popular culture it is typically not nearly to the same degree that women are. See: http://gomakemeasand...ts-of-pictures/

 

The above comic does a pretty good job of summing up why I think it's so important not to have oversexualized female characters. It just seems insulting to women that, in so many games, male characters get to be so badass and then they're placed alongside female characters that, frankly, look ridiculous/embarrassing. As has previously been said by others in this thread, though, I feel pretty confident that Obsidian will handle this issue correctly.

 

That was sort of cherry-picking, D3xter, because the Castanic males in TERA are the only males that have outfits close to the level of absurdity and oversexualization that the females have. And there certainly ain't no male-equivalent of the lollis in TERA. I still remember the outrage it caused when those were censored' in the NA/European release. But yeah, it's a start. Can go here for full renders for each race/gender.

 

A comic comes to mind:

 

What if the male Avengers all posed like the female one?

 

 

[AGX-17]

It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

 

Unthinkable, not unthinking. I mean, yes it's unthinking because an abstract concept cannot think.

 

And yes, actually, it is rather unthinkable. If a woman in Renaissance Europe wore an early 1900s bathing suit in public (the woolen, extremely modest in comparison to today's swimwear kind,) she would be ill-regarded and her reputation would be ruined if she wasn't already known to be a prostitute. Even then it would be unacceptable, intolerable and result in severe reactions from the community. If you want unrealistic, immature titillation, play Dragon Age 2 with its fully integrated breast-bouncing physics.

Edited October 20, 2012 by AGX-17

[UncleBourbon]

It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

 

Unthinkable, not unthinking. I mean, yes it's unthinking because an abstract concept cannot think.

 

And yes, actually, it is rather unthinkable. If a woman in Renaissance Europe wore an early 1900s bathing suit in public (the woolen, extremely modest in comparison to today's swimwear kind,) she would be ill-regarded and her reputation would be ruined if she wasn't already known to be a prostitute. Even then it would be unacceptable, intolerable and result in severe reactions from the community. If you want unrealistic, immature titillation, play Dragon Age 2 with its fully integrated breast-bouncing physics.

 

Which, as far as my history knowledge goes, was largely the result of the Catholic Church's influence and western religion and society standards. There is no reason to assume those things held true in Project Eternity. Especially as there are at least two major, conflicting deities with diverging standards and followers. Likewise, I imagine namy of the druid-like groups (if there are any) would be less ashamed of showing their flesh.

 

I also recall playing with a female character in table top who travelled around with little to no armor (she was a high dexterity bard) who was an escaped concubine of a killed king. The logic of "where do you holster your weapon?" was answered with "Why holster it, if people are hardly ever going to notice it, anyway?" (Our DM conferred a distraction bonus to both enemies and friends when scantily clad). Out of combat she tended to wear some armored robes, easily removed and used as an improvised trip weapon.

Edited October 20, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Rostere]

That was sort of cherry-picking, D3xter, because the Castanic males in TERA are the only males that have outfits close to the level of absurdity and oversexualization that the females have. And there certainly ain't no male-equivalent of the lollis in TERA. I still remember the outrage it caused when those were censored' in the NA/European release. But yeah, it's a start. Can go here for full renders for each race/gender.

 

A comic comes to mind:

 

What if the male Avengers all posed like the female one?

 

 

 

That image always cracks me up...

[pseudonymous]

If games are doing stupid, impractical things to pander to the overactive libidos and misogynistic tendencies of teenage boys, then I figure video games SHOULD change. Doing stupid and impractical things just to show some skin is not a virtue. It is not a virtue for a character to excuse their clothing with "It's entirely practical and your western ways are so ridiculous" when that kind of underwear is silly and impractical in the context of close quarters hand-to-hand combat.

 

Are you sure games aren't doing the impractical things with female characters because they are designed by people that have no social interactions with women?

[Nidrolok]

I'm merely stating that in a realistic setting, these types of people are likely to exist and that it's not unreasonable for some people to expect to see such people in the game. I'll concede entirely that it would be unreasonable to demand this. But to simply point out that, hey, sometimes games kinda look sexist and I really hope this one isn't... Please, tell me, where's the harm in that?

Read what you wrote again. You are clearly under the notion that "fanservice" have precedence over tone and style.

"If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them."

No they should not, the writers vision should be the basis of characters and their behaviour/physique, not the "fans" preferences. If a character is fat for example it should be because it fits his character and not any other reason.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Nidrolok

[Wench]

Are you sure games aren't doing the impractical things with female characters because they are designed by people that have no social interactions with women?

 

Thats an absurdly unfair generalization. While the game dev community is mostly men it doesn't mean they have no social interaction with women. Strangely enough lots of game devs get married and have children! Gosh.

[Joukehainen]

If games are doing stupid, impractical things to pander to the overactive libidos and misogynistic tendencies of teenage boys, then I figure video games SHOULD change. Doing stupid and impractical things just to show some skin is not a virtue. It is not a virtue for a character to excuse their clothing with "It's entirely practical and your western ways are so ridiculous" when that kind of underwear is silly and impractical in the context of close quarters hand-to-hand combat.

 

Are you sure games aren't doing the impractical things with female characters because they are designed by people that have no social interactions with women?

 

Or women that subscribe to discrimination. Power structures are held in place by more than just the dominant group, so of course it's not as though men = bad and women = good, or white = bad and black = good, or straight = bad and gay = good, etc etc.

[temporalTemptation]

It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

 

Unthinkable, not unthinking. I mean, yes it's unthinking because an abstract concept cannot think.

 

And yes, actually, it is rather unthinkable. If a woman in Renaissance Europe wore an early 1900s bathing suit in public (the woolen, extremely modest in comparison to today's swimwear kind,) she would be ill-regarded and her reputation would be ruined if she wasn't already known to be a prostitute. Even then it would be unacceptable, intolerable and result in severe reactions from the community. If you want unrealistic, immature titillation, play Dragon Age 2 with its fully integrated breast-bouncing physics.

 

Smeg! How did I make such a silly typo? Hmm... Really need to figure out how to go back and edit these things.

 

But, yeah, I agree with you for the most part. I mean, different periods have different sensibilities and one would expect how people dress to reflect the culture that they came from. Of course, this is a fictional setting, so it's hard to say (until we know more about the setting) what is and isn't thinkable.

[AGX-17]

It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

 

Unthinkable, not unthinking. I mean, yes it's unthinking because an abstract concept cannot think.

 

And yes, actually, it is rather unthinkable. If a woman in Renaissance Europe wore an early 1900s bathing suit in public (the woolen, extremely modest in comparison to today's swimwear kind,) she would be ill-regarded and her reputation would be ruined if she wasn't already known to be a prostitute. Even then it would be unacceptable, intolerable and result in severe reactions from the community. If you want unrealistic, immature titillation, play Dragon Age 2 with its fully integrated breast-bouncing physics.

 

Which, as far as my history knowledge goes, was largely the result of the Catholic Church's influence and western religion and society standards. There is no reason to assume those things held true in Project Eternity. Especially as there are at least two major, conflicting deities with diverging standards and followers. Likewise, I imagine namy of the druid-like groups (if there are any) would be less ashamed of showing their flesh.

 

I also recall playing with a female character in table top who travelled around with little to no armor (she was a high dexterity bard) who was an escaped concubine of a killed king. The logic of "where do you holster your weapon?" was answered with "Why holster it, if people are hardly ever going to notice it, anyway?" (Our DM conferred a distraction bonus to both enemies and friends when scantily clad). Out of combat she tended to wear some armored robes, easily removed and used as an improvised trip weapon.

 

And yet PE is based on Renaissance Europe, as has been officially stated multiple times. The Catholic Church was not some militant buzzkill squad patrolling for brazen hussies desperate to run around dressed like fetish models (which, for the record, I am rather fond of, but I recognize that a medieval fantasy land is neither the time nor the place,) the standards of dress in Europe had been established before the Catholic Church had dominance. The Roman style of dress, in robe or togas, had been established in Roman provinces in modern France and Britain, and Northern Europe is, how do you put it... COLD. Humans have this little problem of being warm blooded animals that evolved in a dry, hot african savanna, leading to an amount of body hair incapable of conserving heat in such cold. So copious amounts of clothing are required to survive the winter. Yes, some pagan tribes went to battle in the nude, but that was to prevent the filth of their clothing from entering any wounds sustained in battle.

 

"My sexual fantasy involves a woman exposing herself in public, please put it in your game, I'm going to make up stories to justify it because I am too embarrassed to admit my sexual motives. See? I made a character like that in a TT RPG so it's valid!" Is not a legitimate argument in favor of your proposition.

 

If you want Obsidian to twist themselves into knots to justify skanky women in skanky outfits like every other Oblivion or Skyrim mod, that's your perogative, but it makes no sense and it doesn't fit Obsidian's ethos for the game as far as I can tell.

Edited October 20, 2012 by AGX-17