Update #24: Less than 30 Hours to go! Life and Death, and Audio CD Soundtrack!

[Tamerlane]

Bloodlines specifically had the problem of rewarding the completing of quest objectives rather than killing then giving you giant god damn sections where you can do nothing but kill thangs and the next piece of EXP is a giant sewer level and a billion monsters away.

 

That's, uh.

 

That's... one of those things to avoid...

[Cantousent]

You can't, in one breath, say that combat is too hard and then, almost in the same breath, say that the game isn't combat centered. I prefer objective oriented xp, but my point is that the way xp is doled out will not change how combat works. I think it's quite likely I misunderstood Darkmoon, for which I'll beg pardon. I actually think there's less room to attack the game on the grounds that it is less tactical when the combat is such a central part of the design, but that's just my take. It's certainly not DnD.

[Ieo]

Bloodlines specifically had the problem of rewarding the completing of quest objectives rather than killing then giving you giant god damn sections where you can do nothing but kill thangs and the next piece of EXP is a giant sewer level and a billion monsters away.

 

That's, uh.

 

That's... one of those things to avoid...

 

There are definitely pitfalls to keep in mind, and I'm sure Obsidian is aware of that since their devs trawl the forums. Like I said otherwise, it's highly unlikely that the back-loaded objective xp will be implemented in a pure vacuum.

[SqueakyCat]

Ieo,

 

I really liked your previous idea -- a compromise of sorts. That would be perfectly fine whilst also keeping the quest/goal experience -- best of both worlds.

 

Too bad not everyone seemed to see it as the thread was moving so quickly.

Edited October 16, 2012 by SqueakyCat

[Atheria]

so where does one check how much was brought in through PayPal?

[MaximKat]

The thing that I'm trying to point out myself is that not every monster will be tied to quests or "objectives" because it really wouldn't make sense. And I don't think I'm far off if I say that probably most enemies won't be tied to quests where you can sneak/parely/otherextravagantoption to overcome them.

You either have a reason to kill an enemy (other than "because killing is fun") or you don't. If you do, then you can get XP for whatever you have achieved by killing said enemy. If you don't, then tough luck, you don't get rewarded for meaningless violence. Problem?

[KDarkmoon]

This thread has 177 members currently viewing out of 64,623 pledging.

 

Hardly an adequate sampling.

Which is why I also hope they stick mostly to their own vision and not be too influenced by what goes on in the forums.

Don't get me wrong, I can completely understand not being happy with something in a proposed game, but why not give them a chance instead of assuming the worst?

 

I'm very used to the xp-per-kill type of system (or whatever) but I'm open to other options and directions. Sometimes things that initially sound unappealing to me because it's not what I'm used to ends up becoming my favorite new thing. eg, I love chocolate, but it doesn't mean I want to eat it all the time.

 

Sorry for the delay - had errands.

 

Thing is, I've played Bloodlines and other 'quest/goal' experience games and do not care for the system. They have said this is what they'd like to do (although a tiny opening was left). It's not that I'm not used to this type of system, I simply prefer the other.

 

Personal preferences -- we all have them. I am, however, willing to see what they finally come up with as this isn't written in stone at this point.

 

Agreed and this is what I understand their description of Proj. Eternity plans to be similar to. I played Bloodlines multiple times but have never finished it for just this reason. I enjoyed the atmosphere and lore of the game but some of the mechanics were just plain annoying.

 

Besides, I never said that I withdrew my pledge entirely. I just reduced the level to about 1/3rd based upon my general dislike for a game mechanic that renders combat undesirable and/or of little value to participate in as I understand Obsidian's description to entail. Yes, there is "stamina" healing, aka RESTING but HEALTH damage was stated to be entirely different leading to maiming in standard difficulty and perma-death in expert. It's why I don't care much for most "adventure" games and instead prefer RPGs. I like having more options and having the tactics involved in combat. But if they make combat so ponderous through the aforementioned issues then it makes that entire aspect undesirable and/or not fun but rather crosses into becoming frustrating.

Edited October 16, 2012 by KDarkmoon

[Humanoid]

so where does one check how much was brought in through PayPal?

 

No live count as such, one of the project guys will semi-regularly post a manual update in the Kickstarter comments - check the filtered comments here: http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/obsidian/comments

[Atheria]

so where does one check how much was brought in through PayPal?

 

No live count as such, one of the project guys will semi-regularly post a manual update in the Kickstarter comments - check the filtered comments here: http://www.kickstart...sidian/comments

 

thanks. i saw 99,266.33 as of some time today on paypal. so it's about 3.43 right now.. just 70K in 23 hours

[Humanoid]

Aside, would just like to note that we've just passed Double Fine's final Kickstarter-only figure:

 

$3,337,163, over $3,336,371.

[dlux]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

[jvempire]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

Where is regenerating health?

[Merin]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

 

Not sure if serious...

[jvempire]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

 

Not sure if serious...

I think it maybe a sarcastic remark since of course the opposite is what is going since magic can't heal you, but because it's the internet so it's hard to tell.

[Gatt9]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

Where is regenerating health?

 

The stamina bar is now functionally equivalent to health, because damage is subtracted from stamina instead of health until stamina is depeleted. Stamina regenerates after battle. So basically, we now have a regenerating health bar called "Stamina", and a backup health bar.

[Tamerlane]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

Where is regenerating health?

 

The stamina bar is now functionally equivalent to health, because damage is subtracted from stamina instead of health until stamina is depeleted. Stamina regenerates after battle. So basically, we now have a regenerating health bar called "Stamina", and a backup health bar.

Except that Josh Sawyer explicitly said that that is not how it goes...

 

You can take stamina and health damage simultaneously, you just take more stamina damage.

[jvempire]

XP only for completing objectives - and regernerating health?!

 

Well, Project Eternity is now turning into an action RPG. lol Might as well name it "Call of Eternity", it already has guns! haha

 

Yup, old school RPGs are truly dead, you heard it from Obsidian - the guys that wanted to revive the genre. ^^

 

It's kind of funny watching the devs play D&D, I think a round of "Call of Duty" would have been more appropriate.

 

I'm outta here!

Where is regenerating health?

 

The stamina bar is now functionally equivalent to health, because damage is subtracted from stamina instead of health until stamina is depeleted. Stamina regenerates after battle. So basically, we now have a regenerating health bar called "Stamina", and a backup health bar.

I see your point there, if the game is design in such a way that it becomes rare that the player will ever lose actual health than I can see it becoming a problem. Though the example that Sawyer gave doesn't really imply that.

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

Edited October 16, 2012 by jvempire

[Volourn]

Repost: ate to the party ti seems and have yet to read whole threa dbut plan to.

 

Anyways, i find giving xp only for quest completion almost as bad as giving xp only for combat. I think , even though it does take a little more work design wise, you should reward xp for combat, non combat, skill useage, quest completion, exploration, and role-playing. That ensures all styles are covered.

 

A noteable game BL - which is a terrific game overall - had quest based xp awards only - and it just made (admittedly alreayd subpar combat) combat even less fun. It just felt like a chore and by end of game I would just run past all enemies because there just seemed no purpose in fighting them any longer making it a waste of time.

 

I agree you shouldn't get any xp for combating versus wussy foes 9villagers and the like) not should you get the same amount of xp for using dialogue than killing someone afterwrads but you should get basic xp though. Plus, there's other ways to punish people for killing creatures neededless.

 

 

Plus, for old schoolers, this is how most 'old school games' did it. Dumbing down for it to be quest only xp is soemthing ME2 did. Are Codexers admitting to be next gen fans?

Edited October 16, 2012 by Volourn

[ShadowFighter88]

"Objective based" xp only downplays combat because it removes the reward system from engaging in it, making it pointless to enter into any combat that doesn't have an "Objective" assigned to it.

I think they mean objective in the more broad sense.

 

Say you're travelling and run across some highwaymen who hold you up and demand your money. In a combat-based XP system, you could get XP for talking your way out of it and then more experience for then slaughtering them all. In an objective-based system, you could get the reward from talking your way out, fighting them, sneaking past or a few other ways and, as you leave that area, you get a notice like "Defeated highwaymen: +500 XP". You don't have to see the objective beforehand, it can just turn up in your message log the moment you finish it.

 

Strictly speaking - I don't think it even needs to be visible to the players at all. Just flagged somewhere in the code where it's all worked out behind the scenes. So if there was a big powerful dragon you could hunt down who wasn't part of the story, that dragon could be flagged as having an objective on him, thus giving him an XP reward when he is defeated in some way (killing him, sneaking in and nicking a flipping-great pile of cash from his hoard, conning him out of treasure, etc).

[Shiroco]

I'm quite impressed that reading seems to be such a problem. Tamerlane got it right. You will still need to rest to "cure" health dmg which u will take with each hit taken. They additionally said that running around with low health but full stamina will get u killed.

One of the reasons why they would like to implement the stamina bar is that they want to reduce the need to rest after each battle to heal back up to full health.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how their idea works out in the _actual_ game. Don't misread their idea's/answers and spread those false interpretations. With our pledges we've put our faith in them - let's keep it that way and believe that they'll deliver a great game!

[Cantousent]

The stamina bar is now functionally equivalent to health, because damage is subtracted from stamina instead of health until stamina is depeleted. Stamina regenerates after battle. So basically, we now have a regenerating health bar called "Stamina", and a backup health bar.

No, Gatt. You can lose health and stamina at the same time. You just lose stamina more easily than actual health. You also regain stamina more quickly than health, but the big dfiference is that magic can restore stamina far far better than restoring actual health. ...and there isn't any res that we know of.

[Darth Trethon]

Well this is convenient, in all likelihood I'll be stateside when the game releases and heck I even have some relatives in California so I won't need international shipping after all. I was just pondering what add-on to go for and then you drop this update. Now I can add this CD soundtrack as well.

[Gorth]

Is stamina verging towards a DA:O style spam mechanic to avoid perma-death?

If I understood it correctly, it's more a Stamina = Tactical consideration, Health = Strategic consideration. Run out of stamina and you collapse, out of the fight for a while. Recovers quickly. Health is the more permanent damage that doesn't just disappear between combats.

 

Sounds very similar to Jagged Alliance 2 (which is not a bad thing).

[Gatt9]

I'm quite impressed that reading seems to be such a problem. Tamerlane got it right. You will still need to rest to "cure" health dmg which u will take with each hit taken. They additionally said that running around with low health but full stamina will get u killed.

One of the reasons why they would like to implement the stamina bar is that they want to reduce the need to rest after each battle to heal back up to full health.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how their idea works out in the _actual_ game. Don't misread their idea's/answers and spread those false interpretations. With our pledges we've put our faith in them - let's keep it that way and believe that they'll deliver a great game!

 

Reading's not a problem. It's a very simple system. Health A and Health B. Just because they call one health bar "Stamina" doesn't make it functionally something different.

 

The "Stamina" bar performs the same function as a Health bar, just because there's a backup Health bar doesn't make the first one anything different. At some stage, why even bother having either bar, just remove them both since we're going to remove inconviences. If clicking a rest button is so inconvient that we'll design it out, why not take the next logical step and design out Health entirely, because it's inconvient to have someone fall unconcious.

 

We don't really need to wait and see how this works out, there's really no mystery here. It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

[MaximKat]

Reading's not a problem. It's a very simple system. Health A and Health B. Just because they call one health bar "Stamina" doesn't make it functionally something different.

 

The "Stamina" bar performs the same function as a Health bar, just because there's a backup Health bar doesn't make the first one anything different. At some stage, why even bother having either bar, just remove them both since we're going to remove inconviences. If clicking a rest button is so inconvient that we'll design it out, why not take the next logical step and design out Health entirely, because it's inconvient to have someone fall unconcious.

 

We don't really need to wait and see how this works out, there's really no mystery here. It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

The argument people usually have against regeneration is that it dumbs things down by removing the need to manage your health between encounters. With this system you still have to do it, since your real health only recovers by resting. What exactly seems to be the problem here? Or is it just a knee-jerk reaction to anything containing the word "regenerating"?