What's Everyone Looking For In Strongholds?

Raithe · October 16, 2012

My first thought is that we should be careful of the word "Stronghold". To a lot of folks it automatically creates the idea of some Castle type base.. and while that can be fun and suitable in a lot of situations, it would be interesting if there's more of a variety in just what type of Stronghold you do acquire / construct.

If you're playing a Rogue type, or a Cipher, or a Wizard does it make as much sense that they get hold of some honking great military fortification?

So the stronghold should represent the character in some manner. Sure, some Wizards might go for a big castle, but otheres might prefer that fortified tower / wizard academy type of thing.. The rogue might prefer establishing some Mansion with a hidden Batcave.. :shifty:

Either way, it needs to establish different aesthetics. Potential for the players to choose (or outright customise) a variety of styles for it, and to expand and refine what is there.

Pulling in some form of minions to provide care, comfort and not have it feel as if you're sole occupant in some rather large establishment.

Strongholds and the related areas make a great money sink as well. Adventurers of all sorts can end up with ridiculous amounts of cash and loot - and it bugs the crap out of me when game worlds don't recognise that. Think about it, you kill a dragon and get its hoard, you are going to destabilise the local economy if you start dropping that cash around willy-nilly.

The stronghold should let you put that money to work in a good way, also, it should let you effect the world around and provide faction influence (positive or negative) depending on just how you go about things. Is having a stronghold going to provide extra resources you can use in the game or is it more just an ego-stroke-monument to your personal glory?

Having to go out and try to recruit various npc's to staff your stronghold, and different choices you make having an assortment of consequences later. Or just in different options you can follow through on in expanding the stronghold. Will you have to make a choice between establishing an alchemy lab or a blacksmith? Will you have access to both? Will hiring that mage from x culture clash with the priest from y culture? Will your seneschal of choice deal well with the local villagers or be better with the city merchants?

There needs to be some reaction to you establishing that sort of base of operations, and if you do have military might and tenant farmers you are becoming a power in that corner of the world. So political shennannigans should ensue.

So quests of setting up the stronghold, quests to refine the stronghold, quests to deal with people working for you / living there, quests to deal with surrounding factions and just how they react to how you're going about your business...

Of course, the flip side of this is just how it can potentially influence the main storyline as well. I'm assuming that since this was a stretch goal, it would be considered a needed part of the main storyline to deal with. But just how will it effect the storyline? Will it make sense if it has absolutely no relation to whatever happens? Will it be totally stand alone and have no effect on the people you meet and deal with post strong-hold creation? Will various quests relating to the stronghold only become available at different points of progression?

If you have some massive fortress and a personal army will the various factions treat you differently?

Regardless, it really cannot be some static thing that only looks shiny.

Well, unless it, really quite seriously uber-shiny.

Kyecthus · October 16, 2012

The issue with making it a main part of the storyline is for people who wouldn't want to utilize a stronghold roleplay wise for their character. Sure if you're trying to play along the lines of some urban-dwelling powermonger, the big shiny castle could be nice, but what happens when you set yourself up as a nature-dwelling ranger or the aloof hedge mage. It needs to be both investable but not game breaking, unless like the NWN2 stronghold, it becomes the basis for an entire section of the game that you really can't refuse the stewardship of.

NerdBoner · October 16, 2012

class specific stuff

Juneau · October 16, 2012

Everything that has been said already about being able to build it up with upgrades (I think Dragon Age did this) and it was awesome.

+ all the story side elements to it, hiring staff, guards, building up the local population and finally have a quest line that see's you under siege with the overall outcome determined by your previous quest progression (hiring GOOD staff/guards/building up etc..)

Would be pretty awesome but I do like that if you invest you get more out of it.

SesameTree · October 16, 2012

I would like stronghold to reflect my character.

If i'm a priest i'd like to turn my stronghold into huge temple, or if i'm a wizard i would like something that goes with the theme of wizards, like sphere from BGII.

Juneau · October 16, 2012

I would like stronghold to reflect my character.

If i'm a priest i'd like to turn my stronghold into huge temple, or if i'm a wizard i would like something that goes with the theme of wizards, like sphere from BGII.

That is actually an insanely good idea! Though I suppose that would mean the game devs would have to in effect make 10 versions of it and I don't think they would do that :'(

Awesome idea though!

elminster · October 16, 2012

For me, the player house was already ok. Building a stronghold is quiet challenging I suppose. First of all, you have lots of great ideas about something like that - costumized quests, costumize looking, costumize achievments. But the point of costumizing is very difficult in that regard. If you want costumization, you want probably a proper one. So lets say: a mage tower for a mage, a fortress for a figther, a temple for a priest, a lair for a roque etc. Thats up to 11(!) different, most probably greatly time-costing pictures if done for each class. And for each one you want probably costumized furniture. Keep in mind that the stronghold was something for 200k money (2.8 to 3.0). Thats much, but not a huge lot.

So I suspect there will be just a huge building / fortress which looking you cant costumize. Then you want to costumize the furniture. You can choose to build a library, a room for praying, a forge for crafting, a roque training room maybe, a chanting room for chanters.... Ok now think that each room buffs only one class. Having just one room makes the stronghold look empty. Having all leads to the question: why do I have to build it separately? I could have my stronghold startet with that already.

That makes the last possible option, the stronghold is part of interesting, main-story influencing quests, most probable. But if its main-story influencing, can it even be a bit individual?

Im actually quiet interested how they want to solve this without that its something like in BG 2 - not individual at all, using maps you already explored doing quests and adding just 2-3 mini-quests. Call me a pessimist but I see that coming...

Milten · October 16, 2012

I would like stronghold to reflect my character.

If i'm a priest i'd like to turn my stronghold into huge temple, or if i'm a wizard i would like something that goes with the theme of wizards, like sphere from BGII.

We have 11 classes so if devs try to create 11 different strongholds it will end just like BGII: few short quests and good bye. That's the problem.

AwesomeOcelot · October 16, 2012

I would like stronghold to reflect my character.

If i'm a priest i'd like to turn my stronghold into huge temple, or if i'm a wizard i would like something that goes with the theme of wizards, like sphere from BGII.

If I'm a war lord I'd like my stronghold to be used to exercise power and gather slaves. If I'm a merchant I'd like my stronghold to be a trading post.

Mrakvampire · October 16, 2012

What I wanted - something like 'BG2-style'

What we will get... Something like Player's House 2.0

So basically right now I expect everything that should be in normal house but with fortifications, slaves servants and some general non-class-specific side quests.

Jarmo · October 16, 2012

Convenience.

Easy entrance, a loot chest somewhere right next to where you appear from quicktravel, possible enchanting or workbenches or whatevers right next door.

New Vegas had this sweet hotel suite, which I never used because I'd quick travel to downstairs and had to go in and take the elevator.

Instead I stayed in that scrubby novac motel, all the necessities right next door, much better.

Quests and stuff, developing the place pretty much what NWN2 had.

FlintlockJazz · October 16, 2012

I would like stronghold to reflect my character.

If i'm a priest i'd like to turn my stronghold into huge temple, or if i'm a wizard i would like something that goes with the theme of wizards, like sphere from BGII.

That is actually an insanely good idea! Though I suppose that would mean the game devs would have to in effect make 10 versions of it and I don't think they would do that :'(

Awesome idea though!

Actually they wouldn't necessarily have to make one for each class. A 'wizard's' tower would work for both mages and ciphers, military outpost for fighters, barbarians, paladins and rangers, and a temple for priests, chanters and monks. That's just three that covers nine of the classes(can't remember the other two).

TheOptimist · October 16, 2012

Lots of Suikoden fans in here. That said, I'd love to see a Stronghold that gets acknowledged in the wider game world. If you build yourself an impregnable fortress and rule wisely, it would be interesting to say encounter people in the larger world (which as per usual, is going/has gone to hell) whom are packing up and leaving for your fortress, for the specific reason that it's one of the few places that has been able to hold out the madness. By the same token, if you rule like a blood-drunk serial killer people should whisper the name of the castle as a curse word and talk about staying away from the whole region your stronghold occupies.

I also agree with folks here that I would like a populated stronghold. There should be people and soldiers there, and that number should grow as my stronghold becomes larger and stronger.

Mrakvampire · October 16, 2012

Actually they wouldn't necessarily have to make one for each class. A 'wizard's' tower would work for both mages and ciphers, military outpost for fighters, barbarians, paladins and rangers, and a temple for priests, chanters and monks. That's just three that covers nine of the classes(can't remember the other two).

Using this logic we can basically assume that 1 stronghold can work for all classes.

Raithe · October 16, 2012

You have to admit, it was always one of the classic elements of D&D. When you hit certain levels, it was pretty much expected that you'd start some form of stronghold and attract followers.

It's that shift in gears from being a common sellsword to being a figure of power and influence... It would be less about wandering into the nearest cave system to thwack some kobolds around the head, and more about stepping into a wider arena of actions and effects.

You need to do something with all the golds, loot and zappy items you've picked up, and investing it in organizations, trading networks, network of "friends" and improving a base of operations is a relatively coherent approach and isn't quite as arbitrary as some methods of dealing with it all can be.

FlintlockJazz · October 16, 2012

Actually they wouldn't necessarily have to make one for each class. A 'wizard's' tower would work for both mages and ciphers, military outpost for fighters, barbarians, paladins and rangers, and a temple for priests, chanters and monks. That's just three that covers nine of the classes(can't remember the other two).

Using this logic we can basically assume that 1 stronghold can work for all classes.

You could, but not all strongholds work for all classes or types. A military keep would be of no interest to a wizard. Having different strongholds for different focuses covers more types and allows for more replay while keeping the numbers down allows for more specialisation, its getting the balance right that is the question.

Personally I think giving the player an area of land that he can manage would be best. There could be a settlement that is fixed for all playthroughs (but can be built up), the player can order a home to be built (such as a tower for wizards, churches for priests etc) that utilises the surrounding resources to produce stuff and that determines the type of guards you have and how they are produced (normal guards from keeps, holy warriors from churches and golems and automatons for mages). The base stronghold stays the same but the home building and inhabitants vary.

imatechguy · October 16, 2012

You have to admit, it was always one of the classic elements of D&D. When you hit certain levels, it was pretty much expected that you'd start some form of stronghold and attract followers.

It's that shift in gears from being a common sellsword to being a figure of power and influence... It would be less about wandering into the nearest cave system to thwack some kobolds around the head, and more about stepping into a wider arena of actions and effects.

You need to do something with all the golds, loot and zappy items you've picked up, and investing it in organizations, trading networks, network of "friends" and improving a base of operations is a relatively coherent approach and isn't quite as arbitrary as some methods of dealing with it all can be.

Well said!

Actually they wouldn't necessarily have to make one for each class. A 'wizard's' tower would work for both mages and ciphers, military outpost for fighters, barbarians, paladins and rangers, and a temple for priests, chanters and monks. That's just three that covers nine of the classes(can't remember the other two).

Using this logic we can basically assume that 1 stronghold can work for all classes.

You could, but not all strongholds work for all classes or types. A military keep would be of no interest to a wizard. Having different strongholds for different focuses covers more types and allows for more replay while keeping the numbers down allows for more specialisation, its getting the balance right that is the question.

Personally I think giving the player an area of land that he can manage would be best. There could be a settlement that is fixed for all playthroughs (but can be built up), the player can order a home to be built (such as a tower for wizards, churches for priests etc) that utilises the surrounding resources to produce stuff and that determines the type of guards you have and how they are produced (normal guards from keeps, holy warriors from churches and golems and automatons for mages). The base stronghold stays the same but the home building and inhabitants vary.

While I agree with some of your second paragraph I wholeheartedly disagree with the first. Scholarly Warriors, militaristic Priest or magic user types, Rogues interested in the "arcane" might not fit into the boxes you allude to in that first paragraph. That's why I suggested a modular approach here. With that approach they'd have to design just a few base theme structures and let the player decide the theme that's right for their character. Want a militaristic stronghold with the arcane "Library" and the Rogue Tavern? No worries, you can do that with a modular approach. They could even spice it up a bit more and have a couple different mood themes for each like a Beacon of Light and Hope, a dark and gritty, a well worn and even maybe a spooky mood. With just a few above ground themes for example: Fortress, Temple, Arcane compound and a below ground option or two I'd think they'd have most everyone covered in some fashion.

With some mixing and matching of the modules in each theme combined with the mood settings there is a lot of potential for giving players freedom and variety with less effort than trying to do a stronghold or two for each class.

metiman · October 16, 2012

I'm still not entirely clear on what a "stronghold" actually is. It's not merely a house obviously. So presumably it is more than just a place to sleep to avoid the overpriced city inns.

If the idea is to introduce another sort of game mechanic then how about making some kind of RTS? Although I haven't played many RTS games the idea of building towns and gathering armies to battle against other towns could be interesting. Especially once you've finished the main story.

Tusck · October 16, 2012

1. I would like to see multiple options for stronghold locations, but once you choose yours, the rest become unavailable.

2. Each location would have multiple "nodes" where you choose what kind of upgrade or merchant cane be placed there.

3. I would want it to be a mini game of sorts where you choose the tax rates or what people are doing, and people can choose to leave.

4. I would like to have the ability to accept couriers or quest givers coming to ask for help. (radiant quest mechanic)

In short, I would like the stronghold to be an interactive part of the game. A place where you would want to actually spend some time.

Milten · October 16, 2012

I'm still not entirely clear on what a "stronghold" actually is. It's not merely a house obviously. So presumably it is more than just a place to sleep to avoid the overpriced city inns.

Looks like a lot of people here haven't played NWN2, otherwise you'd get what are 'strategic elements' Obsidian is talking about.

Best way to know is just play NWN2. Are you RPG fans or what?

Or can you read this for example. Spoiler alert of course. http://nwn2.wikia.co.../Crossroad_Keep

Edited October 16, 2012 by Milten

FlintlockJazz · October 16, 2012

Honestly, I just don't want the stronghold to be the typical 'keep management', wherein your character becomes a 'great leader of men', my mage probably doesn't care and just wants a tower to do research in and blow people up who get too close, otherwise I may just stick to the personal house for many of my playthroughs

Tarthrin · October 16, 2012

I would like to see the resources available modifed by the local/world economies. This in turn would improve or degenerate based on outcomes of quests. Do you consistently help the merchant caravans, or do you let them be besieged by bandits?

mokona · October 18, 2012

Probably the best computer game stronghold I have ever encountered was in Suikoden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suikoden_(video_game) I encourage anyone working on Project Eternity stronghold mechanics/design to play all the way through Suikoden. Lots of companions/alternate party members as well.

Mr. Magniloquent · October 18, 2012

I feel it either needs to be pivitol, or all together unimportant. Either my keep is central to the game and worth my time to invest in it for the sake of outcomes and quests, or it is a safe storage locker to rest up and craft. Anything inbetween tends to be a distraction which detracts from the adventuring aspects of the game.

Calmar · October 18, 2012

Maybe it'll be like in Shadows of Amn where you get a different base depending on your class and solve quests related to your stronghold.

What's Everyone Looking For In Strongholds?

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