Update #17: Brian Fargo from inXile Kicks In, Obsidian Kicks it Forward, New $165 Tier, and Expansion

[ImRhoven]

Re: Expansion pack. It was clear from near the beginning that OE sought to turn PE into a franchise with expansions and sequels. Planning an expansion pack you're going to do anyway from the beginning so it can be integrated into the greater world and story, instead of making it feel wedged in is just the proper way to go about things. I'm really failing to see why people are so up in arms about this.

 

Re: New tiers and rewards. I'm slightly annoyed. My current pledge is at 160 (140+20 for shipping). I blew the rest of this years gaming budget, and then some, on this PE thing. It's easily the highest amount of money I ever spent on a single piece of entertainment. It's also the very first time I ever did anything resembling a pre-order for a game, because I don't buy games without consulting a number of reviews from places I trust. And OE is a company that has seriously let me down before, despite those reviews. Actually I once swore to never give them my money again. And I haven't, until now. I want this project to succeed that much.

 

This means that I'm $5 away from the Wasteland 2 and expansion rewards. I could squeeze out another $5. But I want the box and the map, I like physical things to touch and rummage through and look pretty on my shelves. But I really can't justify to upgrade to the $250 (+20) tier. So I'm at a dilemma, but I think the box is going to win out, so I'll stay at my current pledge.

 

Now I know I'm not entitled to anything here (well except a proper game that does it best to fulfill the promises OE made of course, I did pledge for that after all), so I'm not asking for the expansion and Wasteland2 to be dropped to the $140 tier, but I would appreciate an option were I can get access to both the collectors edition and the expansion for something between $165 and $200. That way I get at least a feasible option that I might talk myself into.

 

It appears that there are more people feeling this way, so I thought I'd add my voice and reasoning to the chorus.

[Theobeau]

@ImRhoven,

 

As someone in a similar situation, completely concur with your post.

 

Can't quite justify to myself the $250 tier (+30 for int. shipping) but would definitely consider a tier between 150-200 that still had the $140 tier physical rewards.

 

Lets hope OBS are listening.

[Raithe]

So the other side of the question is.. if you do want all the physical goodies of the $140, even if you put in extra, you're out of luck for the expansion pack and other purely digital goodies of the $165...

 

Oh the choices, the choices...

[Rabain]

Even if Feargus has said that no money from the KS will go to the expansion, so what. They can still make an Addon to draw more pledges in return for a "free" digital download of the expansion.

 

People understand english, they can understand the logic. Even if this KS ends with 100k backers and they ALL buy an Xpac Addon I doubt the imaginary lost revenue from Xpac sales will even be a concern.

 

PST sold something like 400k copies in its first year or two of release and that was the worst sales figures of all the IE games. BG2 sold something like 2 million copies and the entire BG Saga is over 5million combined.

 

If PE only sells half of what PST sold it will still be enough to cover the announced Xpac, another 2 xpacs and probably a full fledged sequel.

 

So personally I think it would really boost pledges if an Xpac Addon is announced in the next day or two and is priced in the $25-30 range.

 

Edit: personally I've already pledged the 250 tier, so for me I don't have much to worry about with regards to the Xpac but base funds for the main game is my concern right now and from my point of view the more cash the better to make the game bigger and hit every current Stretch goal before the KS ends.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Rabain

[TMTVL]

Anyone remember when the plan was getting $1.1M over the course of a month? Anyway, due to not having the funds I'll buy the xpac when it comes out instead of increasing my pledge to $250. If that is even possible with PayPal (weren't they saying they wanted to get all their tiers straightened out before getting PayPal?).

[Cantousent]

Feels like a room full of old men in here. Grumble, grumble, grumble, ...

 

It's a room full of people who backed a project based on their love for the IE. We kinda are old men... ok middle aged... but as a starting audience we are getting closer to old than young

Bite me... but yeah.

 

As for the physical vs. the digital question, it's just the irony. I have a bunch of physical stuff coming, but the only thing I really care all that much about is the map. I don't really *need* the box, per se, and I don't care if it's autographed. I don't mean that as a slight to the devs. I'll put my fervent support of Obsidz up against anyone's, but it's not like I'm going to frame the signed box. The game *is* Obsidian's autograph, and it's signed by everyone, not just the guys at the top. So we have some folks who want to upgrade but don't want to give up the physical stuff and then you have someone like me who chose his tier based on the top limit of what he could reasonably justify spending on himself just to fund the project. ...And I'd be willing to save them the shipping drive down there to pick up the physical items. I'd buy a couple of extra t-shirts while I was at it. lol

 

I do hope they either add an extra tier or, even better, some add-ons to give folks a shot at the new digital swag without losing their physical items.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Cantousent

[Merin]

That's a sure fire way of people dropping their pledges if the expansion was given at every tier.

 

Most other Kickstarters that I followed, when there was offers of "exclusive this for backers" (not even "exclusive content for higher tiers, even) there was a general uproar about everyone actually wanting all content available to everyone who gets the game.

 

Now this isn't exactly "exclusive to some backers" as anyone can buy the product later ...

 

but I seriously doubt people are going to pull their backing because the project has been so well funded that everyone who'd donated enough to get the game also gets the expansion.

 

And those twelve people who are that selfish? Obsidian will be just as huge a success without them.

[Cantousent]

That's a sure fire way of people dropping their pledges if the expansion was given at every tier.

 

Most other Kickstarters that I followed, when there was offers of "exclusive this for backers" (not even "exclusive content for higher tiers, even) there was a general uproar about everyone actually wanting all content available to everyone who gets the game.

 

Now this isn't exactly "exclusive to some backers" as anyone can buy the product later ...

 

but I seriously doubt people are going to pull their backing because the project has been so well funded that everyone who'd donated enough to get the game also gets the expansion.

 

And those twelve people who are that selfish? Obsidian will be just as huge a success without them.

I usually agree with you most of the time, merin, but the idea struck me as bad also. It's not because I think folks would necessarily reduce their pledges, but because it seems like a slap in the face to all those folks who agonized over coughing up more money to the project and finally bit the bullet and did so. Those folks, some of whom could ill-afford it, put their money up front because they felt the need while other, some of whom could easily afford the extra expenditure, held back. I don't have a horse in this race and I'll clearly not withdraw or reduce my pledge, but I think it's bogus to reward folks for not pledging at the expense of those folks who, from this update forward, ponied up the cash.

[Ryuzaki]

At this point, you give me Italian and I can die happy.

[Raithe]

[i do hope they either add an extra tier or, even better, some add-ons to give folks a shot at the new digital swag without losing their physical items.

 

It's that important shiny physical stuff that you get to have and hold at home, stroke it and whisper "my preciouuusssssss"....

 

Well I've ponied up to what roughly translates as around £100, which is over the tier, but not to the next "big one". As it is, I'll worry about the creditors next month and hope I survive..

[rjshae]

As for the physical vs. the digital question, it's just the irony. I have a bunch of physical stuff coming, but the only thing I really care all that much about is the map. I don't really *need* the box, per se, and I don't care if it's autographed. I don't mean that as a slight to the devs. I'll put my fervent support of Obsidz up against anyone's, but it's not like I'm going to frame the signed box. The game *is* Obsidian's autograph, and it's signed by everyone, not just the guys at the top. So we have some folks who want to upgrade but don't want to give up the physical stuff and then you have someone like me who chose his tier based on the top limit of what he could reasonably justify spending on himself just to fund the project. ...And I'd be willing to save them the shipping drive down there to pick up the physical items. I'd buy a couple of extra t-shirts while I was at it. lol

 

Personally I like the boxed version mainly for the manual and the disk media. They could send me those shrink-wrapped and skip the box entirely. I've never really found I needed a map when the game already has a digital version. The artwork would be enjoyable though. Shrug.

 

Looking forward to the release date, which is way, way too far into the future....

[Merin]

That's a sure fire way of people dropping their pledges if the expansion was given at every tier.

 

Most other Kickstarters that I followed, when there was offers of "exclusive this for backers" (not even "exclusive content for higher tiers, even) there was a general uproar about everyone actually wanting all content available to everyone who gets the game.

 

Now this isn't exactly "exclusive to some backers" as anyone can buy the product later ...

 

but I seriously doubt people are going to pull their backing because the project has been so well funded that everyone who'd donated enough to get the game also gets the expansion.

 

And those twelve people who are that selfish? Obsidian will be just as huge a success without them.

I usually agree with you most of the time, merin, but the idea struck me as bad also. It's not because I think folks would necessarily reduce their pledges, but because it seems like a slap in the face to all those folks who agonized over coughing up more money to the project and finally bit the bullet and did so. Those folks, some of whom could ill-afford it, put their money up front because they felt the need while other, some of whom could easily afford the extra expenditure, held back. I don't have a horse in this race and I'll clearly not withdraw or reduce my pledge, but I think it's bogus to reward folks for not pledging at the expense of those folks who, from this update forward, ponied up the cash.

 

I think what you've seen me advocating is that there be a new $190-200 tier so people can upgrade from $140, keep their physical goodies, and add the expansion in.

 

Is that what you are disagreeing with? Because that's my stance.

 

I was just saying that I bet FEW people made the $140 to $250 jump for the expansion. I'm sure some did, but of 50k backers it'd likely be less that .1%. And if those 230+ people who jumped from $110 to $165 would drop back to $110, all of them (because this would be assuming that Obsidian would just, you know, bone-headedly strip out the point of the $165 tier without adding something else into it) you'd see Eternity lose about $13k. Sad, yes, but I'd bet you'd make it up in new pledges or people jumping up from the $20 to the $25 pledge amount (which is where it'd be smart to put the expansion - just above the biggest glut of donators and at a level that is easy for almost anyone to up their pledge!) You'd need just over 2500 of those 25000 backers to jump up 5 dollars to make up the losses if they did that.

 

I mean, that's math and statistics. They had, what, 700 backers at the $110 level? Even if all jumped to $165, which most wouldn't, it's not nearly as much as you'd get from a third of the largest concentration of backers, the 25000, jumping up $5. Which seems more likely to happen? And then there'd be more "$20 game only" slots opened back up and more people donating at that level.

 

But, again, I'm not saying they SHOULD do that... it's too late. They went another way and can't backtrack at this point without tipping over the apple cart and upsetting people who are looking to be upset.

 

What I'm saying they should do is add a $190-200 tier.

 

And this isn't for me. I can't add anymore money, I'm set where I'm at. I'm speaking for the good of the campaign as a whole.

 

If I had the resources, I'd be in at the $1000. Trust me.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Merin

[Madzookeeper]

hey merin, my only thing with putting the xpac at the 25 level si how much money are they losing long term since that's basically underselling not one, but two items? they basically have two tiers where they have undersold the price of the game, the 20 and 25 tiers just to raise the money to make it, but long term... doing that even more just doesn't make that much since. they're probably hoping those people that just won't go higher are willing to by the xpac after release. at least were i to guess. they're having to balance both the now and the future, which is where things get tricky.

[Rabain]

I think it is a bad idea to be worrying about sales numbers right now. If Obsidian are underselling the game with the $20 tier then I'm sure they have that factored into their budget. It is not a loss in the sense that they have to pay back a loan and they will have less cash to pay it back because of the underselling.

 

The goal should be increasing the pledges, forget about Xpac funding, forget about sales numbers of the main game. Think about what would raise more pledges in the next week.

 

Adding an Xpac Addon for $25-30 could potentially raise a lot of cash in the short time left. Now I don't mean adding the Xpac to the $20 tier for free, I mean having the ability to up your pledge by another $25-30 in order to get a "free" copy of the Xpac. Theoretically this money reduces the profit from sales of the Xpac but the money would go to make the main game bigger and better, potentially increasing its sales and consequently the sales of the Xpac. Everyone is happy.

 

Another thing to think about is the actual case of what Obsidian could be doing to make money instead of doing a kickstarter for PE. I'm pretty sure they would make more money making any AAA game via a publisher. It might not be the game they want to make but it would probably sell 100 times more copies than PE will.

 

So forget about "profits" etc that haven't even happened yet and focus on possible and reasonable options to encourage more pledges or existing pledgers to increase their current pledge amount.

[Merin]

hey merin, my only thing with putting the xpac at the 25 level si how much money are they losing long term since that's basically underselling not one, but two items? they basically have two tiers where they have undersold the price of the game, the 20 and 25 tiers just to raise the money to make it, but long term... doing that even more just doesn't make that much since. they're probably hoping those people that just won't go higher are willing to by the xpac after release. at least were i to guess. they're having to balance both the now and the future, which is where things get tricky.

 

Hey, no, I agree. Mostly. Where we are at, now, I think they need the $190-200 tier. We're stuck, they already made the announcement and such as is. It would be a bad idea to switch the expansion to all or $25 NOW.

 

To be clear - switching NOW is BAD.

 

I think you'd lose negligible people in doing so, but why even lose those people at this point? The $190-200 tier is the answer. You get a few more people spending fifty more dollars - win / win.

 

To dig DEEPER in the $25 or more, however, and how that COULD HAVE worked - here's the ticket from a different thread that I posted before the expansion was announced -

 

1) Big Goals: Two words: Expansion, sequel. I think it is a mistake to build up this first indie project too big, and to expect sales to pay for a sequel. I think we've just about reached the top-out goal for adding content with the mega dungeon and adventurer's hall. I'd love to see paladin and bard added, but I don't actually think more companions or classes or races at this point is probably a good idea.

 

So I would strongly suggest that if the game hits $3 million you will promise an expansion, old school IE kind (Tales of the Sword Coast, Heart of Winter, Trial of the Luremaster)... but that the stretch goals between 2.6 or 2.7 be nothing until $3 million. And anyone who pitched in $25 or more (getting a copy of the game) will also get a copy of the expansion for free.

 

at $4 million, full-on sequel is added. Like Fallout 2, Icewind Dale 2, etc. Will that million between 3 and 4 pay for it? Not likely... but will 1 million plus sales of PE pay for a sequel? Magic 8 ball keeps coming up "almost certainly."

 

Edited October 9, 2012 by Merin

[ilhdr]

I think it is a bad idea to be worrying about sales numbers right now. If Obsidian are underselling the game with the $20 tier then I'm sure they have that factored into their budget. It is not a loss in the sense that they have to pay back a loan and they will have less cash to pay it back because of the underselling.

 

The goal should be increasing the pledges, forget about Xpac funding, forget about sales numbers of the main game. Think about what would raise more pledges in the next week.

 

Adding an Xpac Addon for $25-30 could potentially raise a lot of cash in the short time left. Now I don't mean adding the Xpac to the $20 tier for free, I mean having the ability to up your pledge by another $25-30 in order to get a "free" copy of the Xpac. Theoretically this money reduces the profit from sales of the Xpac but the money would go to make the main game bigger and better, potentially increasing its sales and consequently the sales of the Xpac. Everyone is happy.

 

They will just canibalize the franchise if it funds the main game with the expansion money.

 

That's why i'm not so confident about this expansion talk, it means they will give for free a expansion copy in the future.

Edited October 9, 2012 by ilhdr

[Cantousent]

What is clear to me, according to the Kicktraq site that Zoo and Bootsy pointed out to me earlier, is that this update has done wonders for increasing both members and pledges since mid-September. I'm glad about that. I'm exstatic. I have, for me, a lot tied up in this project. Not only because I've put in what is for me a considerable amount of money for a single entertainment expenditure, but because of my investment in terms of time, effort, and enthusiasm. I've written or called at least thirty different news outlets, leaned on personal friends, exhorted my wife's friends, and regularly visited the fora and the web pages to keep up with the news. It's like volunteering for a political campaign. I want to see my candidate win and win big. I want to see Obsidian make enough money to make good on their promises. So, we can argue over the stepping of the tiers and whatnot, but I want them to make a lot of money and to put a damn good bit of it into making a superior product.

[boger]

What we are also doing is adding the first expansion pack for the game to the $165 Tier (and above).

 

now, what's the point of tiers below $165? We help to finance the project, yet we have to pay for the expansion. Without backers there would be no game, thus no expansion...I might as well cancel my pledge and wait for the "GOTY" edition, I don't want to own/pay for half a game.

[ogrezilla]

What we are also doing is adding the first expansion pack for the game to the $165 Tier (and above).

 

now, what's the point of tiers below $165? We help to finance the project, yet we have to pay for the expansion. Without backers there would be no game, thus no expansion...I might as well cancel my pledge and wait for the "GOTY" edition, I don't want to own/pay for half a game.

kickstarter is not a store. the point is to help get the original game made. they aren't taking anything away from you by giving others the expansion for free.

Edited October 9, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Undecaf]

I don't want to own/pay for half a game.

 

You're paying just for the core game. Which will be a full one.

[Madzookeeper]

@ rabain

 

well, they might make more money overall doing a triple a title, but how much of it would they actually see exactly? i don't know the answer to that, but i'd be willing to bet it might be somewhat comparable if this sells even remotely well. and i can get behind having the expansion pack as an add-on. doesn't effect me one way or the other, but definitely see the appeal.

 

what i was saying was that adding it to the 25$ tier just didn't really make any sense at all. so we seem to be on the same page really.

 

@ merin

 

ok, we pretty much agree on that. but i do think they have some ideas left, because they've pretty much said that they do have more stretch goals. i'm curious what, mind you.

 

they've basically already stated that they want to do expansions AND a sequel, the sequel would be kickstarted though (based on what feargus said the other day). i can find that quote if you want, but it was addressing funds from PE going to an expansion, not happening at all, and he said that they wouldn't kickstart an expansion, that they would save that for the sequel if we'd still have them.

 

so... *shrugs* i have no clue what they have planned for the rest of the week, but they spent the last two weeks trying to get not only those weeks taken care of but ready for this one. all i can say is i'm looking forward to it.

[C2B]

What we are also doing is adding the first expansion pack for the game to the $165 Tier (and above).

 

now, what's the point of tiers below $165? We help to finance the project, yet we have to pay for the expansion. Without backers there would be no game, thus no expansion...I might as well cancel my pledge and wait for the "GOTY" edition, I don't want to own/pay for half a game.

 

Your not owning *half a game*. You will be owning a full game. The expansion is not going to be content that was cut from the game.

Edited October 9, 2012 by C2B

[myrdinn]

An actual expansion...

...dangit, sort on cash right now.

 

But, hey, looks like a new Age of RPG is hitting a new stride, with Wasteland 2 kickin' in as a reward too. Means the metaparty of developers is ready for a crusade.

 

Beware the "nibbled to death by ducks" syndrome, folks, but rock on.

[Madzookeeper]

What we are also doing is adding the first expansion pack for the game to the $165 Tier (and above).

 

now, what's the point of tiers below $165? We help to finance the project, yet we have to pay for the expansion. Without backers there would be no game, thus no expansion...I might as well cancel my pledge and wait for the "GOTY" edition, I don't want to own/pay for half a game.

 

been having a really long discussion with someone else about this, but suffice to say it seems like you're viewing this through the lens of ME3 day one DLC, i.e. javik. it was obviously cut from the game to make more money. that isn't what they're doing here. you are still getting everything they promised to you, the main game, and whatever other things you decided you wanted from whatever tier you went for. the expansion is a separate entity, that is being made AFTER they have completely finished the base game. basically the kickstarter, and everything connected to it, stops at the base game. they are basically giving a gift to those that can pledge that high, and who are basically spending more than enough to get the game and expansion three times over. you will still be able to get the entire game experience, that isn't going to have anything cut from it. which was all that they promised to you.

 

what saying they're making an expansion really means is that they are committed to continuing this world. they are going to be paying for the expansion's creation at first out of their own pocket, which means obsidian is paying to make it, not us in any way, shape, form, or fashion, and then using the funds generated from PE sales. if they were using kickstarter funds to make the expansion pack, you would have a point. as things stand now you don't. they aren't ea/activision/ubisoft. they are basically trying to do something more like old world blues/mask of the betrayer. that isn't a continuation of the main story, it's a new story set in a new place. you may use your character, but you won't be losing anything from the main story/base game because of it.

 

make sense?

[playdude92]

These guys are totally legit and friends with other great developers!

 

All joking aside though, I´d like to here more about the game´s societies, the world´s history, legends, religion and that sort of stuff in future updates. Keep em coming!