Live recorded music, Poll 2.0

[jerf]

I'm sorry for creating a new poll on this subject, but the old one was apparently formulated rather badly, as was pointed out in the comments. Hopefully, this one is better.

 

So, what do you think about hiring live musicians to record music for Project Eternity?

 

P.S. Here is the previous thread, where you can find some comments by Justin Bell:

http://forums.obsidi...a-stretch-goal/

Edited October 6, 2012 by jerf

[Ieo]

I would suggest linking to the previous thread containing Bell's comments, for context.

 

 

Edit: I think the hurdy-gurdy counts as an instrument of the Middle Ages--that'd be pretty cool.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Ieo

[Treantsin]

Original folksong, as has been done with Leliana's Song in DA:O, and of course, Paragon of Drinking, and anything Bard's Tale, are damn good ideas.

 

They can make the game doubly memorable.

But it might be a touch unecessary, depending on the tone of the game.

 

P:T did well enough without all too much of this specialty instrumentation, to my knowledge.

[Aedelric]

The poll already indicated most people say no, why do we need another poll?

 

As for instruments, I trust Justin Bell to make the best decision, the three tracks he has revealed so far shows he knows what he is doing.

[Ieo]

The poll already indicated most people say no, why do we need another poll?

 

As for instruments, I trust Justin Bell to make the best decision, the three tracks he has revealed so far shows he knows what he is doing.

 

The main difference is "full orchestra" versus small ensemble or solo--Justin Bell indicated the former is usually prohibitively expensive, so I wouldn't want that either, then himself suggested that small ensembles would work as well and be a lot cheaper. I could see it worked into an existing stretch goal, but I imagine most players don't put this at a high priority.

[Archmage Silver]

I'm indifferent to both of the poll options - I know good music can be made with less as well as more. I do have a soft spot for things like Leliana's Song in Dragon Age though. You don't necessarily have to have Aubrey Ashburn performing anything on the soundtrack, but a song with good lyrics and a good artist goes a long way towards making the soundtrack more memorable. One or two songs like this are enough though, the rest of the soundtrack can be just instrumental.

[Justin Bell]

Great poll again jerf, thanks again for going through the trouble. It's up to everyone interested the music to drive this one forward, and I'm interested to see what if anything comes of it!

[nikolokolus]

I love live music, but knowing what can be done with electronics in creating ambient soundscapes I really don't know how the expense of a full orchestra or live musicians is going to be worth the investment.

 

What the hell do I know, maybe it will be within the budget, but really it should come down to the team; they know best.

[Gorth]

There are a number of things Obsidian (and Black Isle before that) has been famous for. story, bugs and the sound side of things. Wouldn't mind some live musicians performing on some less than common instruments, whether they be harps, flutes, drums, strings etc. So, if stretch goal $2.7m became the aforementioned 60 minutes of full orchestra to perform some of the pieces necessary on various instruments in groups and together I wouldn't object.

[Piccolo]

Voted in favour of small ensembles and soloists recordings. Also very in favour of medieval instruments.

[Sensuki]

I'm sure there's some pledgers that are professional musicians too, btw..... (not me though)

 

for example, imagine if Aslak Tolonen was a backer, that's one kantele master right there.

 

Out of the 52,000 people that have backed at present i'm sure there'd be a few that are awesome and 'reachable'.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Sensuki

[Zeckul]

I don't really care how it is recorded or what instruments are used, as long as it's coherent, convincing and makes me want to listen to it again (i.e. beautiful).

 

On that note, if real instruments are used or imitated, they should sound real and live. The last samples we heard sounded too synthetic for my tastes. I'm totally fine with non-real/exotic/medieval instruments, as long as they sound like they should, and the whole sounds coherent - nothing stands out as artificially super-imposed on the rest. That's probably too vague to be really helpful, but oh well, I'm not a composer.

 

Matt Uelmen's work on Diablo 2 is one of my favorites and shows how a convincing and coherent sound can be achieved through both synthetic and live means. Most of the score is produced by digital tools, albeit mixed with some live instruments, e.g.:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tJBG77Xn3k

 

I love how this sounds like it's playing inside that crypt; it just blends with the environment. It doesn't try to emulate an orchestra. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Act 5 had full orchestral live recordings:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YruCuC6gbl0

 

These don't achieve the same degree of environmental immersion, however they do sound phenomenal and very dramatic in their own right.

 

Both are convincing and coherent soundscapes. Baldur's Gate's music was neither; it tried to sound orchestral while only using samples: this is weaker I think. The themes and orchestration are great in BG's music but it does sound unnatural at times; choirs especially.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Zeckul

[kjrubberducky]

I love music in games. So far, any game I've backed on Kickstarter, I've gone straight to whichever tier has the soundtrack. The music sets the tone for the whole thing, in my experience. There have been games that were pretty good, fun to play and all that, but they never were very memorable to me, the sole reason being that the music didn't pull me in.

 

While an orchestral score can be amazing for some games, it can make others feel derivative or forced. Ultimately, the music has to support the rest of the game, and an orchestra isn't something you should do to make the music "sound better".

 

I will say that, for me, real recording sessions are miles better than whatever synthetic sounds you can stitch up in a digital studio, with the only exception being if synth is the sound you are going for.

[LordCrash]

@ Zeckul

 

Listen to the Gothic 3 orchestral soundtrack

 

Samples:

http://tinyurl.com/9yp8lne

http://tinyurl.com/8nwjobg

http://tinyurl.com/997o2e4

Edited October 7, 2012 by LordCrash

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/TxjpYHhfRyI

 

Hammered Dulcimer, please

[Karranthain]

Weaving live musician's performances into the soundtrack (celli, violins, 12 string guitars etc.) works best for me. Some period instruments would be great too.

While orchestral music has its place, I usually prefer a more intimate sound.

[Sensuki]

http://youtu.be/TxjpYHhfRyI

 

Hammered Dulcimer, please

 

HELL YEAH

[Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin]

How was music made for Infinity Engine games?

[Justin Bell]

How was music made for Infinity Engine games?

 

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet it was a blend of live and sampled instruments. You can tell when listening to the tracks. Live musicians tend to sound more subtle, expressive and nuanced. At least they "tend" to. It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments.

[Emeraude]

Personally hoping we're not getting orchestral music again. Though, yeah, given how this whole project is fueled on nostalgia, it's kinda hoping going to a football match and not hear horns.

 

Also, preaching against my own, but for some reasons I've linked this whole project to The Silk Road Ensemble's music: https://www.youtube.com/user/silkroadproject?feature=results_main

 

Also, cause it can't be said enough: really loved the music you wrote for the trailer, Mr Bell, great job.

[NerdBoner]

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet it was a blend of live and sampled instruments. You can tell when listening to the tracks. Live musicians tend to sound more subtle, expressive and nuanced. At least they "tend" to. It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments.

 

just give it your all brother...remember tavern music, environment specific music, some tear jerking songs at appropriate times, nature sounds etc.

 

Call Inon Zur up, pick his brain...his Throne of Bhaal tracks were amazing, very epic and appropriate for the stage of power you were dealing with at the time.

Edited October 7, 2012 by NerdBoner

[hideo kuze]

OP, you should have quoted this post

In terms of cost, the range can vary quite a bit. I did say in that one post that Orchestras can be prohibitively expensive, and they can. That said, there are some Orchestras in Europe and Russia (like gakmen suggested) that are less expensive and will still sound great.

 

I wonder though, what about just having some live musicians mixed with the sampled score? Small ensembles would definitely cost less and would still have a positive effect on the overall sound. That can add a lot to enhance expression and realism, in fact I did that on one of the campaign trailer tracks with some of the Horn parts... For those concerned about budget, what do you think of that as a solution?

 

I was kind of stupefied with some of the comments on that thread where people say they turn off music when playing a game... just WTF is that madness! I don't even...

 

I love videogame music. But I don't have that much of a good hearing. And

what you can do with software, it just gave me another reason for going without an orchestral score.

Don't get me wrong, I do love them (one of my fav tracks performed by the Moscow Symphony Orchestra and choir -- Outcast still has one of best VG OST), but the budget for it concerns me, and I rather have 100 minutes of great music, than 50 minutes of great music played by an orchestra.

Or even see that money invested in extending voice characterization or more portraits and artwork for narrations.

The problem is, we just don't know how much we are going to get and if that feels "enough".

 

 

In any case, regarding my vote and keeping in mind Justin's opinion on this (since he is the expert after all =) I changed my vote from "none" to "half".

 

 

Justin, just how much money are we talking about? How much would 1h of music cost played by a more "cost friendly" orchestra? 200k?

 

fake edit:

No no, not that much at all. A budget for a hollywood caliber orchestra can cost as much as 80-100k+ for a full orchestra (80+ musicians), conductor, engineer, orchestrator, copyists etc for about 60-ish minutes of music. Which is lots of money, especially for a game like Project Eternity.

 

But there are ways to bring that price down significantly. The size of the ensemble, their international location, and other factors play into that. In otherwords, there are options, and the example I gave of the "prohibitively expensive" orchestra is definitely on the higher side of those options.

 

 

 

This is a good opportunity to clarify instrumentation. We will not limit the instrumentation pallet to just orchestra for Project Eternity. My policy on this is that we'll use whatever most effectively supports the narrative. I consider CRPGs like PE longform art, and you need to keep the sonic presence of the score refreshing in order to have that succeed over the course of time. Instruments are like colors on an artist's pallet. If we were to paint the music of the entire game "red", there's a risk things will get boring. To keep things new and refreshing, its in our interest to evolve that pallet in interesting and relevant ways.

So if its a renaissance era Sackbut, then its a Sackbut. If its Vangelis Juno patches, its Vangelis Juno patches. String quartet, tabla, classical guitar, 12 string guitar, didgeridoo, orchestra, choir, synths, banging on a metal bridge with drum sticks.... Whatever it takes to make the music awesome, we'll put it in.

In the end the score will be cohesive, and nothing is off the table at this point.

 

Well, what are we waiting for?

In that case I'm all up for it (like it was discussed in that thread) for themes that make sense to have live/orchestral elements.

 

 

tl, dr: Feargus give the green card to Justin Bell

[Ieo]

OP, you should have quoted this post

 

Just so you know, OP did link to the original orchestral score post, and he was the one who started that too.

 

Small/solo live with synthetic, plz!

[Adauli]

Because I usual have music complet disabled in the games I play after the first hour or so thats why I usualy don't care for this part of a game. But if at all it should be at only a small group as anything biger was keept to the rich in a real medival setting.

[LordCrash]

@ Justin

 

Please avoid synthetic music as far as possible, Justin! Any avid listener can hear the difference between real, instrumental music and synthetic music, and it is indeed a great difference, you as an expert must know that more than most others! Synthetic music will ever sounds cheaper, more artificial and less emotional than instrumental music, even if it's done well. It might fit to a cold futuristic Sci-Fi setting but not to a fantasy world with medieval background.

 

So please, Justin, if you were allowed to make the soundtrack( what I would really appreciate), only use synthetic music if your budget allows no other option.

 

I hope you'll find some free minutes to watch the interview with Kai Rosenkranz, made several years ago during the release time of Gothic 3, since I would really like to hear how you treat the approach to compose video games music and in which points you are in agreements with Kai and in which not. I think the world of video game development haven't changed that much since when it comes to soundtrack composing, especially for an old-school approach like with PE, so most of his viewpoints are still valid today, don't you think?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci0rUWd6w2A

Edited October 7, 2012 by LordCrash