Reddit Q&A Part 2 with Tim Cain

[Guest bouzaglo]

say I have a question what kind of psychological and philosophical thems will be undertakings during the game?,will it be as Baldur's Gate? will be more issues of family and identity? or of god and ego ? And the meening of what is a soul? . And how deeply emotional the game will be?? do you want to be able to make people cry during the game ? like when people cry becuse of the final fantasy plot ???

[teknoman2]

seems like most people here missunderstood the part about magic. let's make it a bit more clear from what i can tell

you know 40 spells. 10 1st level, 7 2nd level, 10 3rd level, 9 4th level and 4 5th level (meaning 5th level is the max you have for the moment)

you have 2 books. one can have 4 first level, 2 2nd level, 2 3rd level and 1 4th level spell put in it and the other 3 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level, 1 4th level and 1 5th level spell

you have to choose what spells you will put in each and inscribe them durring rest.

then you choose which of the 2 you want to use in battle.

say you chose the 2nd book

in the battle you can cast the 5th level spell once and no more as the highest level magic has no cooldown but its single use. you can cast it again if you get a level up and unlock 6th level or if you rest

then you can cast the 4th level magic once and set off the cooldown, you can fire either one of each or one twice of the 3rd level spells before the spell level gets in cooldown, you can use the 2nd level spells 3 times before the cooldown and the same goes for 1st level

obviously the cooldowns are dependant on the level of the spell and if you switch book, all the spells of the new book will start in cooldown before you can use them

in the meantime, you have a selection of cantrips that are not book dependant and you can use as much as you want

 

what this system offers, is the chance to have your spells available (in predetermined sets) and be able to use them without having to rest in the middle of a fight to get back or prepare the spells you need for the next enemies. in the meantime it has the need for resource management because you need to have your books ready ahead of time and you cant have all spells in the same book, meaning that you either proceed with what you have, or change book and wait for the spell you need to become castable. and if you wasted your only level 9 spell on small time thugs, you cant have it when you fight the arch-lich

[Jaesun]

The low level WOW/DA spell spamming for low level spells I think needs to be looked at more. The rest sounds promising (as well as changing magic tomes).

[Valorian]

He didn't mention if HPs regenerate on their own after combat though.

[Shevek]

Its basically 4E at will, encounter and daily powers. The 4E system wasnt perfect (hence why WotC are developing ANOTHER system with DnD Next) but it did seem designed with real time video games in mind.

[makryu]

I really like what I read, especially the magic system: I don't think they should listen too much to the people who are seemingly worried with spell span at lower levels. One of the worst aspects of being a mage in PnP D&D has traditionally always been having to endure the first few levels, where your mage doesn't have much firepower. They shouldn't restrain themselves in developing the game around a restriction that old D&D players are used to just "because". Also, I don't know about you guys, but in IE games, my mages usually ended up with more than enough low levels spells a few levels in and it didn't turn my plays into a spamming fest.

[Ieo]

Linked from the U16 thread--Sawyer answers in more detail:

 

There have been some concerns regarding Cain's proposed Wizard magic system. Mainly that it means we can use every spell repeadetly in longer combat encounters. Can you calm our fears?

 

 

JESawyer

 

I think it depends on what you consider "longer". Practically speaking, even a mid-level mage would have to be in an encounter for a long time to both exhaust entire levels of spells and then continue the battle long enough to see those levels unlock again.

 

Let's assume a 10th level PE wizard has the same number of "castings" per level to cast as a 10th level wizard in D&D 3E. I don't know how we would want to roll over levels of spells from per-rest resources to timed lockout resources, but for now let's say that the wizard's 5th and 4th level spells are per-rest resources (just like normal D&D) and that 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spells are on timed lockouts. For simplicity, let's also assume that it takes about the same amount of time to cast these spells in a full round as it would in an IE game. Though we will not use the same timing as the IE games, it's likely that wizard spells will be among the more time-consuming actions to perform.

 

Using D&D spells for this example, the wizard could cast fireball three times or fireball once, then haste, then slow, or two hastes and a fireball -- in any combination, the wizard has exhausted all three of his or her 3rd level spell slots. All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds. The wizard would have to cast another five spells before the level 3 spells were available for use again. Either the wizard is going to use up a lot of 2nd and 1st level castings (possibly locking out one of those two levels in the process) or is going to be eating into his or her per-rest resources.

 

There are a number of tools we can use to balance how this works: 1) the number of castings before a level is locked out 2) the time that an individual level is locked out before it can be used again 3) when a wizard's spell levels roll over from being per-rest to timed lockout (e.g. in this example, maybe 3rd level spells should still be per-rest, but 2nd and 1st are timed lockout) and 4) the power of the individual spells.

 

Our goal is to allow casters to contribute to combat in a way that is more substantive than hucking sling stones without always needing to chew into a per-rest resource. Additionally, we want the caster's higher level spells to be reasonably powerful but also a strategic resource for the player to manage.

 

I think several of us were thinking along these lines too, and I think it sounds like a rather interesting system that can be tweaked and balanced well.

[rjshae]

A nice touch would be to allow skilled Wizards to be able write more spells in the same sized tome. I.e. they learn their own private magical shorthand that allows them to write spells more compactly.

[Nixl]

I like the concept sir.

 

While I understand some posters will disagree, I do believe unlimited weak spells can bring tactical diversity. The tactical diversity in my opinion would derive from choosing between strong but limited spells and weak unlimited spells. Simply put, I associate diversity with options. By options, I mean planning constant sequences of actions between characters. With a party of potentially 6, I believe optimal spell/ability management in a long fight could be rewarding.

 

One might argue that unlimited basic spells would allow for spamming and reduce the need for preparation, but I would disagree. Ideally, using only basic spells should not work. Instead, basic spells may fill the gap between cooldowns. I would imagine maximizing spell output and efficieny against a tough enemy can create a demanding fight. Players that let mage characters sit idle in between cooldowns could be punished in such a system.

 

Furthermore, I would argue that preparation mechanics, especially rest mechanics, are often abused (rest spamming) or not always tactical (just frontloading spells).

 

Ultimately, I do not believe there is a clear cut method to creating tactics and preparation. In the end, I think systems that mix cooldowns, fatigue/morale, etc will create the best platform for strategy.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Nixl

[Valorian]

That's how I imagined it even bofore the in-depth explanation. It sounds promising.

Casting magic missles is more fitting for a mage than throwing rocks, for sure. Now, if those magic missles could miss.. it would be ever better.

 

I still want to know what about the regeneration of other resources like HP (and stamina). I guess active abilities will work on a similar principle as spells: lower level on cooldown, higher level on per-rest.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.

[nikolokolus]

Nice update, great interview with Tim Cain (as usual) and intriguing sketch of a spell casting system. Interested to see how it all shakes out in game.

[Shevek]

Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.

 

This sounds awesome.

[Gambler]

Overall, I agree with the criticisms of IE games' magic in the original post. They are the same things that bothered me as well. So I like this update.

 

But... grimoires? The image of wizards wielding tomes of Encyclopaedia Britannica into battle clashes with everything I like about magic in games. Surely someone can come up with a better analogy and visualization for the same mechanics?

 

For example, instead of saying "you have to memorize some spells during rest" you can say (and think) "you have to perform a certain ritual before you can cast this spell". That is much more in tune with what we're used to in books and movies. Yes, it's just words, but words crate mental images, and that's a big part of storytelling. I also subscribe to Orwell's idea that language shapes (to a some extent) your thinking. Usage of differnt teminoloogy might result in different ideas occuring during design process.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Gambler

[rjshae]

But... grimoires? The image of wizards wielding tomes of Encyclopaedia Britannica into battle clashes with everything I like about magic in games. Surely someone can come up with a better analogy and visualization for the same mechanics?

 

For example, instead of saying "you have to memorize some spells during rest" you can say (and think) "you have to perform a certain ritual before you can cast this spell". That is much more in tune with what we're used to in books and movies. Yes, it's just words, but words crate mental images, and that's a big part of storytelling. I also subscribe to Orwell's idea that language shapes (to a some extent) your thinking. Usage of differnt teminoloogy might result in different ideas occuring during design process.

 

Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.

[Archon]

[...] we will have friendly fire in the game. Some abilities will affect their target and other targets around the main one, so you will need to use these abilities carefully. You can always avoid using these abilities at all, as they are never required, or you can choose to use them around your other characters that have a good chance to evade such damage. And if you don't like it, friendly fire will be an option you can turn off in most modes, but not in expert mode. In expert mode, you will always have to be careful when using area of effect abilities or abilities that cause splash damage, because you won't be able to turn off friendly fire.

[...]

 

Yes, friendly fire. I Know, it's a prerequisite for this kind of game but it's not systematc nowadays.

And it can't be turned off in Expert mode. Awesome.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Archon

[Valorian]

And it can't be turned off in Expert mode. Awesome.

 

Modes are great. And since we're at it.. *Suggestion time* :D

 

Well, resting will play an important role in replenishing our party's resources. I'm guessing it won't be possible to rest everywhere, but still, I don't expect there to be greater obstacles against rest spamming.

 

What I'm proposing is a mode that limits the number of times the party can rest throughout the game. Obsidian will know this game thoroughly, and they'll know best what number that would be to ensure a very challenging, yet not almost impossible experience.

It doesn't even need to be a hard cap, this mode could be designed so that only after let's say, resting 15 times, some unpleasant events start happening. Having some items stolen during sleep, horrible nightmares that can damage one's soul.. etc.

If not, being permanently unable to rest after you use your resting button [number] times would be perfectly fine too.

 

If there's a mode that deletes the saved game, I guess this isn't too much to ask either.

[Cantousent]

I don't mind limited saves on harder levels or the like, but it's not like there should be an artificial punishment for the party being lazy bastards. At some point, the solution strains disbelief more than the problem in the first place. Eventually, hard core gamers are going to get over the fact that some folks are having fun in a different way and live through the pain.

 

Now, I don't mind your solutions, Valor, as long as they're sensical to the plot and story. If the game punishes folks for resting too often in a way that is clearly meant to be intrusive, I will disagree with it on any setting. After all, I can already play iron man and have no saves. You might be able to have a setting limiting rest under expert modes but, frankly, why not just rest less if you think it's a cheesy place? I agree with some of the ideas you have in order to encourage less resting as long as they don't appear to be thrown in just to placate the hard-core crowd. If limits on resting seem like a natural part of the story and that particular area. I think throwing a blanket wrench in the resting scheme pell mell on every setting would be wrong. After all, if someone wants to play on normal and spend all of his or her time sleeping, more power to 'em.

 

I think the more hard core crowd should have their way on some issues, but I would rather the devs simply balance resting as best they can. With that said, I guess I don't mind it as a separate mode. I think it's unnecessary, but that's just my take.

[Umberlin]

Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.

 

I tend to look at that as a good thing, to me, and it's probably the D&D influence that makes me think like that, bu, a Wizard without a spell book, to me, isn't a Wizard. It's a Sorcerer. I like the heavy focus on the grimoire. That's a bit of personal bias, mind you. A Wizard, in whatever setting, is whatever the setting requires it to be. This particular setting and its grimoire focus just happen to go along with my preference.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Umberlin

[Valorian]

You might be able to have a setting limiting rest under expert modes but, frankly, why not just rest less if you think it's a cheesy place?

 

I already do that, but when playing the game the first time I have no idea whatsoever how long or how challenging it is, so the designers saying (through a mode); Hey, 10 or 15 resting sessions is enough. It will be hard, but not impossible.

 

And it's actually more useful than a mode that doesn't let you play anymore when you die. It's simple - you die, you start a new game, if you want to. But guessing the number of appropriate resting sessions on my own for the game to be challenging as a whole is another story.

[rjshae]

Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.

 

I tend to look at that as a good thing, to me, and it's probably the D&D influence that makes me think like that, bu, a Wizard without a spell book, to me, isn't a Wizard. It's a Sorcerer. I like the heavy focus on the grimoire. That's a bit of personal bias, mind you. A Wizard, in whatever setting, is whatever the setting requires it to be. This particular setting and its grimoire focus just happen to go along with my preference.

 

No it's not a bad thing. But it should mean that Wizard characters can't just swap grimoires, and a Wizard shouldn't be able to immediately use a grimoire that they find in a dungeon somewhere.

[Sensuki]

Hey look at it this way, once you run out of spells in your grimoire you've got something heavier than a phone book to hit people with.

 

Please make grimoires melee viable and do 1 damage.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

I must admit that I'm slightly baffled by this magic system, I'll make my mind up when I actually see it. As long as it doesn't turn into the magic-user's version of inventory tetris, managing spellbook contents, then I'll be OK. I'm also not liking the idea of cooldowns for melee characters. Too much balancing, searching for the perfect system, just leads to one where everybody is equally unhappy. It's a bit like Socialism.

[rjshae]

Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.

 

To me the one oddity is why do spells of a particular level get locked out? That makes sense from a game balance perspective, but the mechanism is a little harder to explain from an in-world context. Still, that's kind of how it works for Sorcerers and Bards in D&D. I guess it makes about as much sense as hit points representing damage.

Edited October 7, 2012 by rjshae

[Tobi]

thanks for this update, I like the Grimoire-System!!