disappointed (torment fan perspective)

[WorstUsernameEver]

The Kickstarter campaign has to cater to both the people interested in the mechanics and those interested in the setting. On top of that, no matter how much "work in progress" is stressed, this topic shows fairly clearly that people are gonna react extremely strongly to every piece of information, so I expect they're not going to show snippets of story or writing until they feel fairly confident in them.

[NerdBoner]

oh I see what the problem is...you wanna read the last page of a book before the first is even written...gotcha.

 

Nope. But perhaps I want to read one selcted preview sentance or anything. I'm fine with not revealing much, but I'm not fine with not getting anything and having only mechanics take the spotlight. Perhaps it's just in the nature of how they set up the pledges or what they feel comfortable talking about in the updates at this point. But you would kind of expect them to talk about stuff that get you excited rather than the opposite.

hahaha i can only imagine the perpetual rpg-codex like butthurt that would swell into a cacophony of anguish if they started giving away parts of the story as "preview"...because then, imaginations will do as they do, and build expectations to unfathomable heights and all that we're left with will be enduring disappointment.

 

no way man, let's just stick to whining about concept art and whether or not cooldowns will be in the game and how we can't get everything we want.

 

we'll all be happier that way.

[Infinitron]

Nope. But perhaps I want to read one selcted preview sentance or anything. I'm fine with not revealing much, but I'm not fine with not getting anything and having only mechanics take the spotlight. Perhaps it's just in the nature of how they set up the pledges or what they feel comfortable talking about in the updates at this point. But you would kind of expect them to talk about stuff that get you excited rather than the opposite.

 

Who's this "you" that you're referring to?

 

I for one am quite excited by mechanics.

[Starwars]

I would've preferred it if the kickstarter campaign was less obvious about namedropping the IE game because even though they are similar in one way to another, they also represent 3 pretty different ways of approaching a RPG (or at least that's how fan percepions have "split" them up). Each one has a particular subset of fans, though there's certainly overlaps. And saying "this will be like the IE games" will make for very different expectations.

 

Me? I don't much care for spiritual sequels or what-have-you. I loved Torment but it'd be horrible for some other game to try and live up to that and just fail. I'm pledging my money to PE because it's a new Obsidian RPG with some old-school values to it, with features that I like (new IP, choices/consequences/reactivity, isometric perspective etc) and without publisher interference. The more one tries to wrap it up in "oh it should be like *this* game or *that* game", the more you're setting yourself up to be disappointed.

[mute688]

@Arch-Mage. I recall an interview with Avellone where he mentioned he'd like abilities, skills and magic to be more personalized, tied to the story and specific characters. Since they had the souls-are-magic thing, I was hoping for something more original like that. (hey ho, that word again, but you know what I mean)

 

Obviously, yes, not much of the game is done at this point, that's why I think it's important to complain now. A bit like "Hey, remember that thing you said? Well, please, more of that and less of magic missiles!"

 

I may be misunderstanding your point, but it seems to me that, to take your magic missile example, you would still want magical, ranged combat abilities, you simply don't want magic missiles. You want races that are diverse and interesting, you just don't want them called elves, dwarves and orcs. That's fine if that is what you want, but beneath the in game lore and story these are simply labels. It is the in game lore that makes these races and abilities unique and interesting. Until they have fleshed out the world they are creating, you can call the races anything you want. A new name for a race wont make it interesting if it simply fills the role of the elves, while a race of elves that is unique with a fully fleshed out history will be interesting despite being called elves. Until we get the completed game in our hands and on our hard drives, we wont know how diverse, deep and interesting the world, the races, the classes and the magic system will be.

 

I can understand being disappointed with the focus on gameplay mechanics at the moment, but I doubt they have much of the lore and history of this world fleshed out to lay over those mechanics to any great degree. As they do flesh it out, I have no doubt that we will see and hear much more.

[Infinitron]

By the way, OP might be interesting in knowing that Chris Avellone himself has regrets about Planescape Torment:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment#Development

Ultimately, Avellone has expressed some regret about the game's heavy focus on dialogue, as he feels this interfered with the overall game mechanics, particularly the combat system.

[evdk]

The combat system interfered with the combat system by way of being **** with an immortal protagonist.

[Merlkir]

I may be misunderstanding your point, but it seems to me that, to take your magic missile example, you would still want magical, ranged combat abilities, you simply don't want magic missiles. You want races that are diverse and interesting, you just don't want them called elves, dwarves and orcs. That's fine if that is what you want, but beneath the in game lore and story these are simply labels. It is the in game lore that makes these races and abilities unique and interesting. Until they have fleshed out the world they are creating, you can call the races anything you want. A new name for a race wont make it interesting if it simply fills the role of the elves, while a race of elves that is unique with a fully fleshed out history will be interesting despite being called elves. Until we get the completed game in our hands and on our hard drives, we wont know how diverse, deep and interesting the world, the races, the classes and the magic system will be.

 

I can understand being disappointed with the focus on gameplay mechanics at the moment, but I doubt they have much of the lore and history of this world fleshed out to lay over those mechanics to any great degree. As they do flesh it out, I have no doubt that we will see and hear much more.

 

Well, kind of. It's just a bit scary when the first bits of info we're fed is "Here's the races and classes and they're almost the same as in DnD". It's their first try at their own original IP, like, come on guys, do something with it! Not necessarily just about names of stuff, but it's a big part of it, yes.

 

As I said, I feel now's the right time to complain about stuff we're hearing. And yes, I'm hoping we'll eventually get something very unique and interesting. If soul ends up being mana and I'll be burning soul points to cast soul missiles, there'll be hell to pay! ;P

[Rasmudd]

Nope. But perhaps I want to read one selcted preview sentance or anything. I'm fine with not revealing much, but I'm not fine with not getting anything and having only mechanics take the spotlight. Perhaps it's just in the nature of how they set up the pledges or what they feel comfortable talking about in the updates at this point. But you would kind of expect them to talk about stuff that get you excited rather than the opposite.

 

Who's this "you" that you're referring to?

 

I for one am quite excited by mechanics.

 

I'm talking about me. Sorry for using "you" as a reference to me. But isn't that how you talk? I know there is plenty of people who might go "YES GOD YES ELVES N DWARVES" or people who really want their player housings or paladins. I'm just saying that the current information has rubbed me the wrong way as a person who loved Torment over all the other IE games and are mostly looking for those parts in the new game. I'm not saying they should only please MY KIND, but atleast give us a sausage..

 

Also guy above who talks about revealing specifics is bad. Doesn't even have to be something specific. Tell me how the world could look, what kind of fidelity of the world are they thinking about? How well will the story be connected to actual gameplay? Will we have coookie dungeons with loots and bosses or will everything feel more connected and real with the world?

[evdk]

 

Well, kind of. It's just a bit scary when the first bits of info we're fed is "Here's the races and classes and they're almost the same as in DnD". It's their first try at their own original IP, like, come on guys, do something with it! Not necessarily just about names of stuff, but it's a big part of it, yes.

 

As I said, I feel now's the right time to complain about stuff we're hearing. And yes, I'm hoping we'll eventually get something very unique and interesting. If soul ends up being mana and I'll be burning soul points to cast soul missiles, there'll be hell to pay! ;P

 

I don't think we know either way yet. I am personally hoping for some awesome spells like in PST but we are likely to get a t least some of the fantasy mainstays like the aforementioned magic missile.

[Rink]

edit: Oh, and if you guys are expecting the devs to spoil the story to see if you'll like it, regardless of what the rest of us who don't want to be spoiled think? F*CK YOU.

 

You never watch a trailer before you see a movie? You never read the backside of the box when you buy a game? Nobody is asking for spoilers and the ending of the book.

What I personally ask for is a sign of what the game story would be like, or interactions or characters. Because we haven't seen that yet, the stretch goal leave no impression that this part is important for devs and for some of us this may be important for seeing if some expectations (that were generated by including P:T as point of reference for story) are way out of bounds. If something (for example a character) would be shown to us you of course would be free to ignore it altogether. No need to be insulting.

[Infinitron]

I'm talking about me. Sorry for using "you" as a reference to me. But isn't that how you talk? I know there is plenty of people who might go "YES GOD YES ELVES N DWARVES" or people who really want their player housings or paladins. I'm just saying that the current information has rubbed me the wrong way as a person who loved Torment over all the other IE games and are mostly looking for those parts in the new game. I'm not saying they should only please MY KIND, but atleast give us a sausage..

 

Ah, I see.

 

I don't think "YES GOD YES ELVES N DWARVES" is what people care about here. I mean, it's not the elves and dwarves specifically that matter. We're just glad to know more about the planned systems and ruleset in general. That's the substance of the game.

 

Also guy above who talks about revealing specifics is bad. Doesn't even have to be something specific. Tell me how the world could look, what kind of fidelity of the world are they thinking about? How well will the story be connected to actual gameplay? Will we have coookie dungeons with loots and bosses or will everything feel more connected and real with the world?

 

This is Obsidian, I don't think you have anything to worry about those things.

 

But perhaps what you need is an example of an area of the game.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Infinitron

[Hiro Protagonist II]

You never watch a trailer before you see a movie? You never read the backside of the box when you buy a game? Nobody is asking for spoilers and the ending of the book.

What I personally ask for is a sign of what the game story would be like, or interactions or characters. Because we haven't seen that yet, the stretch goal leave no impression that this part is important for devs and for some of us this may be important for seeing if some expectations (that were generated by including P:T as point of reference for story) are way out of bounds. If something (for example a character) would be shown to us you of course would be free to ignore it altogether. No need to be insulting.

 

So something like the quote below wouldn't make you buy the below game? Other than the below description there is nothing about the story.

 

Immerse yourself in this quinteesential medieval fantasy world, where nations hang in the balance of your actions, dark prophecies test your resolve, and heroic dreams can be fulfiiled at last.

 

- Huge Game world

- Gripping non-linear adventure that spans several chapters, with dozens of subplots that branch in and out of the main scenario. Your decisions affect subsequent chapters and the entire game world as a whole.

- Transparent interface make is possible to play without knowing the rules.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Haerski]

Very few of the stretch goals have me excited. On the other hand, if selling the game from a storyline perspective as the initial post seems to hope for, I'm not sure what kind of stretch goals they could possibly put in.

 

'Reach $3.5 million and we'll write the story even harder'? 'Reach $4 million and we'll throw in another plot twist'? By what measurable barometer could you sell stretch goals based on storyline?

I don't think anyone is asking for stretch goals about story. I just think they should reveal more information on existing content before it makes any sense to expect us to pledge for more. So basically more updates about world and how it works, not necessarily about story, but the scenery around it.

 

I kinda agree with OP. Leave the stupid accusations of trolling and other such childishness, because this guy really has a valid point here.

He does Not. You're never making a 'valid point' when you jump to such all-encompassing conclusions on such little information.

He doesn't jump to any conclusions. He expresses his opinion on stretch goals and updates. Nothing more, so his point is as valid as any of yours. I'm really getting tired of you Obsidian worshippers who can't stand any criticism against your Gods. Stretch goals have been so far very boring, uninteresting, disappointing, senseless and above all, they don't make me want to pledge more even if I could. Now you can try to prove why those points are invalid or stop posting s*** like that.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Haerski

[melkathi]

 

I don't think anyone is asking for stretch goals about story. I just think they should reveal more information on existing content before it makes any sense to expect us to pledge for more. So basically more updates about world and how it works, not necessarily about story, but the scenery around it.

 

 

Very much agree.

So far I am very much indifferent in regards to the project. I pledged, even added another $8 for the order of obsidian, but it is deffinitly the kickstarter I have pledged the least.

 

If this wasn't a kickstarter, which means there only is a limited time frame to the campaign, I would forget about the project till release. Or until they bring out more info.

 

So far they have said "We made some games you really enjoyed and some games you were rather indiferent about." But there is hardly any worthwhile info on this project.

[obyknven]

Also guy above who talks about revealing specifics is bad. Doesn't even have to be something specific. Tell me how the world could look, what kind of fidelity of the world are they thinking about? How well will the story be connected to actual gameplay? Will we have coookie dungeons with loots and bosses or will everything feel more connected and real with the world?

 

This is Obsidian, I don't think you have anything to worry about those things.

 

But perhaps what you need is an example of an area of the game.

 

We have reason to worry because Obsidianz make FAIL many times.

http://theblackdrago...-game-syndrome/

Obsidian Entertainment, creator of Neverwinter Nights 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2 (the first installment of both of these games was done by Bioware), both games with huge potential that they managed to screw over royally in the same way, heh, when speaking solely about RPGs I’d nearly call it the “Obsidian way”.

 

So how come they still get such favorable reviews? Simple, they never manage to finish any of their games properly, they create a great story, a great start to that story and then when you expect the story to finally really get going, when you’re already totally addicted they just drop the hammer on you. They did it in KotOR2 and they do it again in NWN2. Reviewers never notice because they obviously don’t play every game they have to review to the finish.

 

The fact that you can eventually obtain your own keep in NWN2 is something they’re very proud of, but it is, in a way, one of the major letdowns in the game. Sure, it’s nice to have, well worked out and all that, but at the same time you gain your keep you also get the full dose of linearity of the NWN2 OC (Original Campain, as it is known to NWN players) thrown into your face. There are virtually no (none, zero, nada, noppes) side quests in the entire game and the ones that are there usually revolve around picking up something or someone along the way during a part of the main quest. So there went my idea of using my keep as a nice base of operations while racking up the gold needed for repairs to said keep by doing sidequests.

 

Still the main storyline is worked out reasonably well although the endgame, as in KotOR2, boiled down to butchering whole legions of “baddies” and then whacking the “boss” in an epic battle followed by a horrible “cinematic” explaining what “happened” to you and your party. For me this was the biggest anticlimax in any game up till now, at least in KotOR2 they told you what would happen to (most of) your companions (quite literally too) and you yourself had some future perspective, but none of that in NWN2, you and your companions “dissapear”.

 

I know I sound awfully negative here, but the truth is that I really enjoyed the game the first time through so the ending cinematic was a really big letdown. The lineairness of the OC really didn’t bother me the first time through, but I doubt I’ll be replaying this game very often.

 

I really really wish companies would start decently finishing games for once, no more obviously rushed games please.

 

Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords (Obsidian)

• lots of bugs (crashing, savegame corruption)
  
• unfinished story with lots of content cut in such a hasty way that you can’t help but notice (unless you’re blind or think that references to areas marked on maps but which you can’t reach are “normal”, there’s even proof an entire planet was hastily cut (it’s still referenced in HK-47′s dialogs which are still in the game))
  
• a lot of stuff in the (obviously rushed) ending didn’t make any sense because too much got cut
  

Neverwinter Nights 2 (Obsidian)

• lots of bugs (needed a 100MB patch file the first time I started playing, seemed to have fixed most issues though)
  
• rushed ending
  
• (very) weak ending cinematic
  

[LadyCrimson]

We have reason to worry because Obsidianz make FAIL many times.

http://theblackdrago...-game-syndrome/

I'm not sure I'd agree that those games were "Fail" - or that the "rushed game" syndrome is either exclusive of Obsidian or entirely the fault of Obsidian itself. There's publisher side of the process for those games to factor in as well.

 

Which to me seems to be the main point of this Kickstarter. More freedom.

[Stun]

And I'm not sure which NWN2 that guy was playing, but my copy did not have a "rushed ending". If anything, it suffered from the opposite: A whole extra section tacked on at the end that the game would have been fine without. The story seemed to climax during the siege at your keep. But after that was done, you still had to go do a rather bland dungeon to take care of the end boss. And the fact that it had a slideshow presentation at the end is a seperate issue, since people didn't complain about its content, but rather, how terribly voiced it was.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Stun

[obyknven]

In present time PE too similar for this

I'm so sad.

[Gecimen]

I feel this game will kick ass but it's impossible to make another Torment. I feel that PS:T will stay as the best game ever for me till I die. Maybe, Obsidian will give it a go after P:E and all possible expansions are over but... well lets just hope.

[Stun]

The funny thing is, if they did "another Torment", many, many people here would bash it as garbage. Look at all the threads on this forum. Look at how specific and refined people's tastes have become. There's posters here screaming for giant Dungeons, Hard core Tactical combat, perma death systems, There's people here still griping about the fact that PE won't be turn based. There's people who want realistic armor in combat and can't stand looking at anything that deviates from it (let alone an entire party of virtually unarmored characters)

 

These people won't be happy with another Planescape: Torment, because Planescape: Torment had none of this.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Stun

[TrashMan]

i expect something looks like this

or this

 

but take "Robin good style" bully. It's not looks close to "Last Rites" Vision doc.

 

Horrible. Glad they're not going that way.

 

 

 

Forget fragile elves, rock-humping dwarves, worthless hobbits and with them, the mind-numbing boredom of every RPG ever released.

....

This is not high fantasy. This is avant-garde fantasy. Everything you create or draw should reflect this.

 

F**** avant-garde.

[BasaltineBadger]

I'm don't care that much about Torment but the classes are disappointing. It's a new system and there is no reason to copy them from 3rd edition of DnD or WoW. It's not like it's the only way to do classes in an RPG. Many RPGs had different classes Wizardry, Might and Magic, even the first Final Fantasy. I hope that at least they will be different gameplay-wise,

[cyberarmy]

Wizardy and M&M classes are not really that different from generic classes. They have different names but similar abilities.

They really dont need to invent new classes just for the sake of being "original". This is not an "alien" setting like Planescape or Anacrhronox or SWG.

 

Also from what we read from class infos, they dont seem to limit us strictly a lot.

[Loranc]

Ummmm many rpgs had the same classes that all derived from D&D including wizardy, might and magic, and final fantasy. The first final fantasy came out in 1987 with six classes; Fighter, Thief, Black Belt, Red Mage, White Mage, and Black Mage. D&D came out in 1974 with three classes fighter, magic-user, cleric. Greyhawk in 1975 added the thief and paladin class. So okay we've got everything cept a monk so far.... the dungeons and dragons basic set in 1977 had mystic and druid added to it as well as optional classes; Dervish, Shaman, Shadow Elf, Shamani, Master, etc etc. The monk appeared in the Blackmoor supplement in 1975. So basically every class in the first final fantasy was created 10 years before the game released.

 

Whether you're healing, casting magic, or swinging a sword you're going to find tie backs to the good old days of D&D somewhere. And I love how you put DnD and WoW in the same sentence like somehow they compliment each other, why is it any forum I go to someone brings up WoW, like it's a basis for games these days. Especially when we're talking about a single player game and not an MMO. Anyways, this is what they stated about classes.

 

 

Classes in Project Eternity are meant to provide a general framework for character types. Different classes excel in different areas, but the framework can be extended and elaborated on in a multitude of ways to create characters with unique capabilities. If you see a fighter, chances are good that he or she is going to be able to take a lot of damage, but that's about all you can be sure of. If you see a wizard, he or she probably has some hard-hitting spells that can cover a large area, but his potential list of capabilities is vast.

If you want to create a wizard who wears plate armor and hacks away with a broadsword from behind a heavily-enhanced arcane veil, we want to let you do that. If your idea of the perfect fighter is one who wears light armor and uses a variety of dazzling rapier attacks in rapid succession, we want to help you make that character. So it's good to think of Project Eternity's classes as being purpose-ready but not purpose-limited.

To date, through our Kickstarter campaign, you have helped us fund seven classes. In our design, we started with the "core four" because they are the most broadly familiar and also some of the most versatile: the fighter, the priest, the rogue, and the wizard. To these four, you helped us add three specialized, but popular, classes: the ranger, the monk, and the druid. The design of each class has a solid, distinctive base set of abilities that remain in most builds, but will have a large number of optional specializations and alterations to give players a high level of flexibility in developing an individual character's particular style.

Though we are still early in development, we'd like to let you know the rough ideas on what the “core four” classes of Project Eternity encompass: