Subduing Enemies: Alternative paths to Combat resolution

[Amentep]

TBH it's pointless to discuss a mechanic that's hardly beneficial to a game play and may require a use of resources better spent elsewhere...

 

Whenever you suggest something, ask yourself a question.

 

Will it really enhance the gaming experience in comparison to already established mechanics, that it's worth spending additional (VERY LIMITED) resources...

 

If it was a game with a developed MP and DM client like the NWN was, then the answer would be "yes, for the on-line MP gameplay". As it is, it's pointless to discuss a feature that adds little and consumes limited resources...

 

TL DR - NO! There are already other non-combat mechanics

 

I did mention the "if it were easily doable..." which would include not a resources hog.

 

And yes there are other non-combat mechanics. Sneaking and dialog are both fine non-combat mechanics. Subduing, though, at least as I see it would be a combat mechanic. its just a non-lethal combat mechanic.

[eimatshya]

TBH it's pointless to discuss a mechanic that's hardly beneficial to a game play and may require a use of resources better spent elsewhere...

 

Whenever you suggest something, ask yourself a question.

 

Will it really enhance the gaming experience in comparison to already established mechanics, that it's worth spending additional (VERY LIMITED) resources...

 

Well, this game is supposed to be a spiritual successor of sorts to the IE games, and you could knock people unconscious in those by using unarmed attacks (or at least you could in BG, not sure about the others). As such, being able to deal non-lethal damage to KO opponents, rather than kill them, isn't that big of a request. The expanded ideas in which you can take the people prisoner would be more taxing on Obsidian's resources, but I don't know that it would be entirely unfeasible, depending on how they did it.

 

As for whether it would enhance the gaming experience: yes, for me it would definitely enhance my gaming experience. When I get attacked by someone who I don't necessarily want to kill, it greatly enhances my enjoyment of the game to be able to beat them unconscious, rather than having to stab them to death to keep them from killing me. For example, in BG 1, when you go into that inn in Beregost where that guy picks a fight with you, I never felt right about having my entire party hack this unarmed guy to pieces, so I knock him out with unarmed attacks instead. In Arcanum, when I go to see P. Schyler and Sons and the pompous receptionist won't let me in, depending on what kind of character I'm RPing, I sometimes just beat him up, take the key off his unconscious body, and go in.

 

This brings me to Tale's comment that it is unrealistic for beating someone until they pass out to be safe; while the ToEE system never particularly bothered me, I do understand the argument. I think Arcanum's system works well in this respect. Since unarmed attacks drain both stamina and health, it is possible to drain health faster than stamina. Usually you will be able to KO the person without killing them, but occasionally you will do really well on the HP damage roll and kill them by mistake. Such a system allows you to try and subdue people without killing them, but is not a sure thing. I'd be fine if P:E took this route instead of the ToEE route. But I would like it to be possible to knock people out.

Edited September 27, 2012 by eimatshya

[Aedelric]

Alternate paths are always good, more freedom of choice.

 

I would also like to have alternate paths that trick the player and actually make their situation worse!

[Leewelo]

always nice to have a game kick you back in the teeth just like reality

Edited September 27, 2012 by Leewelo

[Amentep]

"Klaatu Barada N... Necktie... Neckturn... Nickel... It's an "N" word, it's definitely an "N" word! Klaatu... Barada... N...[coughs] Okay... that's it!"

 

I can see where it'd be reasonable for subduing a character you should have killed making a quest harder or vice versa. I don't think that every character choice should lead to a positive outcome, although I imagine it might increase the number of things you have to check for (thus making it more complicated as it goes on).

[Tychoxi]

Oh yes! I have often found myself in fights where I would have preferred an aggressive, yet non-lethal way of defeating enemies (once again, thank you FO). It becomes really jarring when after utterly hacking your foe to death... *cutscene attacks* and the dude just gets up nonchalantly as if you had been punching him the gut instead of wacking his face in with a sledgehammer.

[TRX850]

You could achieve this with functionality that is already most likely to be in the game, without a huge amount of extra work.

 

- Uncap the Sleep spell so it scales with level.

- Allow more mid-range spells and combat options to create a Stunned / Dazed / Sleeping / Unconscious effect on enemies.

- Buy rope. It now has a use beyond abseiling.

- During combat, once an enemy is placed in a temporary state like the ones listed above, have a player click the "Bind" ability (common to all players) then the enemy in question.

- Make a successful Bind [sTR] skill check.

- Set hostile enemy's intention to neutral.

- On a failed skill check, the enemy reacts as normal. But if the enemy is unconscious for a while, allow skill re-checks after a cooldown period (similar to stealth attempt).

 

You might have problems with large and/or non-humanoid creatures though. How difficult would it be to bind an unconscious drider?

 

You could even have a Bind spell. Once a creature, even a large one, is unconscious, cast Bind on them (allow a saving throw), but the effects are (semi-)permanent. And again, set their hostile state to neutral.

 

If you then left the area and returned hours/days later, maybe all bound enemies are now gone but counted as defeated, with little or no xp.

 

 

 

[Dream]

If it were easily doable they should send a Ferrari with every copy of the game.

[Lephys]

^ It's easily doable, as Ferraris are, themselves, a mode of transportation. It would simply be expensive. 8P

 

I'm not sure the Kickstarter funding covered the cost of Ferarris.

[Dream]

They weren't?! I demand a refund!

[Lephys]

Hear, hear! *passes out the torches and pitchforks... and ale*

[locomotron]

this sounds like a very good idea, allowing for less definitive solutions to unfortunate combat encounters.

 

Of course it shouldn't get in the way of other parts of the game, but I think that goes for anything they would implement.

 

It would be quite amazing to be able to subdue certain enemies, allowing you to simply knock out the drunken lout that tries to kick your teeth in, rather than gibbing them outright.

 

interregation and such seems a bit far fetched, or un-feasible, but it could be done in certain quest-related situations to allow for yet another solution to the problem, while staying true to the format; a combat driven CRPG.

[Lephys]

Maybe, on a related note, there should be a way to indicate that you have no desire to kill unless it is necessary.

 

Sheathing your weapon, for example. If someone BELIEVES you are hostile and attacks (but they're really only trying to get you before you get them), maybe you could fight them off, knock them down a bit, and once they're not immediately threatening you (lying on their arse or trying to get back up), you could say something like "Hey, there's no need for this!".

 

It would only be applicable in situations like that, so maybe it should just be a dialogue prompt (i.e. "*continue fighting to the death*" or "*attempt to halt the conflict*".

 

This would even cover a situation such as a gladiatorial fight, in which you could kill your opponent, or you could simply "defeat" them and call it a day. Instead of having to stand around for 15 seconds or something to indicate you don't wish to kill them and that you're done with the fight, you could actively sheathe your weapons and/or indicate in some manner (via the UI) that you have no desire to continue fighting.

 

Could lead to some interesting occurrences and quest branches. 8P

[Exile2k4]

Personally, I'd like to see a general system in place that allowed relevant NPCs to yield when they were losing (lost too many of their allies, lost too much stamina etc.). This could create an interesting way of making things like beserk/frenzied/undead opponents distinctly different than standard NPCs who valued their own lives, and also give the player the moral question of whether to accept their submission or slay them anyway.

 

I realise it's an established trope that works well for TV/film, but I get tired of the idea that humans have a safe and simple on/off switch that can be pressed in a fight. Anaesthetists are paid a lot for a reason. I feel in game terms it often doesn't add much either - the 'pacifist' approach in a game like Deus Ex HR felt mechanically very similar to the killing-everyone approach.

 

I'd be interested to see what Obsidian came up with if they looked at this area and it's something I'd like to see included, but I think it's probably a) a drain of resources that could be better spent somewhere else, and b) something that leads to odd unforseen/tedious problems with the gameplay.

[JFSOCC]

If it's added, which I hope it is, Someone knocked unconscious should remain unconscious, not get up after 5 rounds. it should not be something that only a few encounters allow either. If it's a part of the game it should be just as systemic in it's use as most other abilities.

[Lephys]

Personally, I'd like to see a general system in place that allowed relevant NPCs to yield when they were losing (lost too many of their allies, lost too much stamina etc.).

 

Hehe... that reminds me of Skyrim. How it was kind of almost awesome when someone dropped their weapons and took a knee, saying "I yield, I yield! Don't kill me!", and/or fled.

 

Then, of course, it ultimately wasn't anywhere near awesome when they INEVITABLY got back up or reversed their escape with a "Ha-HAH! PSYCH!!!". Also, the fact that letting someone live/escape basically would have served absolutely no purpose except to allow you to go "Oh, cool, they'll give up, and I can not kill them! 8D!" and miss out on XP/loot.

 

Ahhh, Skyrim... the pinnacle of RPG perfection!

[Skie Nightfall]

It's a good concept I remember from old pen and paper games.

The questions is if subdueing has a rule in the game or not. It would be a nice addition, but don't know if it should be high on prioreties

[Dripdry]

Personally, and I know this might come across as moralistic or even getting too wrapped up in a gaming world, but getting older (old at 33!) I've started feeling a little unhappy in games where I'm supposed to go out and, for some thin reason, slaughter anything. Perhaps it started with Shadow of the Colossus, actually.

"Go kill a bunch of these majestic eagles so I can make a headdress!" or "Let's show them not to mess with us!" Since when has that been a noble solution that ever worked in the real world? I *know* this is a fantasy world, yes, but my suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Maybe I just expect more realistic, deeper, or believable stories as I see more of them. Anyway...

 

It makes me think less of a game, that it is NOT well written, or simply disregards a player's time and/or emotional investment in their character/game choices.

 

Why can't there be additional options for accomplishing many of these tasks (one could be subdual damage)? Of course sometimes the only way is to duke it out (which can be a TON of fun!) but having the ability to avoid killing, by hook, crook, or subdual damage (even if that causes more problems for your character later) would be a great option, IMHO.

 

Note: I cannot believe I am airing this opinion out here. I'm sure most people will say,"It's just a game!" but in a culture that seems to glorify violence it's sometimes a relief to minimize needless exposure to it, especially in games where story and character development are involved.

Just my 2 cents.

[JFSOCC]

like how the first quest of Icewind Dale was literally a goblin genocide? yeah, I'm with you on that.

[Lephys]

like how the first quest of Icewind Dale was literally a goblin genocide? yeah, I'm with you on that.

 

But if they're super-hostile when you're simply casually strolling around in their village/habitat and invading their privacy, it's self-defense, right? Like those robbers in the news every now and again who fall through the roof of someone's house that they're attempting to rob, injure themselves, then sue for their victimization.

[Milten]

I'm not sure about subduing, but I'd like the game not making me run around in circles hunting on npcs who lost their combat spirit, when they could just drop their weapon and sit down.

D&D used to do this, as I recall, by having you declare subdual
damage (and certain weapons, like whips, only did subdual damage).

That's disturbing.

[Lephys]

I'm not sure about subduing, but I'd like the game not making me run around in circles hunting on npcs who lost their combat spirit, when they could just drop their weapon and sit down.

Yeah, the enemies in Assassin's Creed (at least starting at about Brotherhood, and lasting through to III) do this. I know it's not quite the exact same system, but they CAN carry around a variety of weapons, and you can pick up their weapon once they've dropped it. Once you kill about 6 or 7 people in a group of 10, the rest tend to either flee (permanently... none of this "I'll go 20 feet, THEN TURN AROUND AND ATTACK YOU AGAIN!" silliness) or completely surrender themselves to your mercy (dropping their weapons and basically peeing their pants in the hopes you won't kill them.)

[AGX-17]

You could achieve this with functionality that is already most likely to be in the game, without a huge amount of extra work.

 

- Uncap the Sleep spell so it scales with level.

- Allow more mid-range spells and combat options to create a Stunned / Dazed / Sleeping / Unconscious effect on enemies.

- Buy rope. It now has a use beyond abseiling.

- During combat, once an enemy is placed in a temporary state like the ones listed above, have a player click the "Bind" ability (common to all players) then the enemy in question.

- Make a successful Bind [sTR] skill check.

- Set hostile enemy's intention to neutral.

- On a failed skill check, the enemy reacts as normal. But if the enemy is unconscious for a while, allow skill re-checks after a cooldown period (similar to stealth attempt).

 

You might have problems with large and/or non-humanoid creatures though. How difficult would it be to bind an unconscious drider?

 

You could even have a Bind spell. Once a creature, even a large one, is unconscious, cast Bind on them (allow a saving throw), but the effects are (semi-)permanent. And again, set their hostile state to neutral.

 

If you then left the area and returned hours/days later, maybe all bound enemies are now gone but counted as defeated, with little or no xp.

This subject was already more hotly debated in another thread whose OP proposed that the player should be able to do a no-kill clean hands MGS/Dishonored type run. I was not pleased by that concept and made my perspective clear on that.

 

Regardless, the Stamina and Health system is already an established differentiation between damage that results in unconsciousness (stamina,) and damage which results in death (health.) Also:

 

Edited February 2, 2013 by AGX-17

[motorizer]

TBH it's pointless to discuss a mechanic that's hardly beneficial to a game play and may require a use of resources better spent elsewhere...

 

 

 

I love it when people use this argument about a game that made nearly 4 times the amount of money they actually wanted to make it...they could hire a whole dev team to work on this feature and still make the game they wanted to....

not that I'm suggesting they do that, its just a bit of a ridiculous argument that comes up every time someone suggests something, on any game forum, ever...

 

Personally I think it's about time there was an RPG where fights aren't necessarily to the death, capturing, subduing, enslaving, or simply knocking out or tying up opponents so you can pass, all add gameplay options...not to mention non lethal brawls

Edited February 2, 2013 by motorizer

[Wirdjos]

"Go kill a bunch of these majestic eagles so I can make a headdress!" or "Let's show them not to mess with us!" Since when has that been a noble solution that ever worked in the real world? I *know* this is a fantasy world, yes, but my suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Maybe I just expect more realistic, deeper, or believable stories as I see more of them. Anyway...

 

It makes me think less of a game, that it is NOT well written, or simply disregards a player's time and/or emotional investment in their character/game choices.

 

I feel the need to second this sentiment. There are times when I don't want to kill whoever has happened to go hostile in front of me and not having any non-lethal options, even options that won't work in this instance, takes me out of characterization. I thought the rope binding idea mentioned earlier was a good one. Punish me for worrying over the lives of enemies by making me buy rope and/or train a noncombat skill, but still allow me to care.

 

While the rope and  the skill to go along with it sound plausible inexpensive, I can understand the interrogation idea taking too many resources to do right. I definitely think it would add to the game experience, if in no other way than replayability, but it is not nearly as important to me as not being restricted to only violent characters.