Tropes vs Women

[Qorem]

I'm really looking forward to this game, it makes me want to replay all of the old games (now, if I could just get PS:T to work properly...).

 

However, something I really hope to not see is the stereotypical Damsels in Distress and other unpleasant tropes. I mean, this is a fantasy world, equality is a possibility!

 

This isn't to say that Baldur's Gate, Planescape and all the other games are filled with such tropes, but I do think that it would be awesome if, when making Project Eternity, this is given some real consideration.

 

Maybe talk to Anita, who is behind Tropes vs Women in Video Games?

[Krios]

Gender equality in medieval fantasy games I am okay with that but I will want to see some damsels in distress. Variety is the spice of life.

[HangedMan]

Hey, maybe this time it's a Prince in need of rescuing instead of the princess! Yes? No? Maybe..?

[Longknife]

Chainmail bikinis give them massive amounts of defense.

Somehow hardens their skin or something.

[Zephyr Falcon]

First buy PS:T from gog.com and you can play it on your modern PC.

 

When it comes to overused, unpleasant, boring, poor taste, etc. tropes - good writing is your salvation. In that respect I've fullest confidence in the writing being engaging, interesting, mature and not offensive.

The "Damsel in Distress" is such an overused trope that even it's reversal has become a cliche in itself - Monty Python's Holy Grail and Shrek are prominent examples.

Also in all my time playing BG, PS:T or IWD I never saw anything as sexist or offensive. Does your experience differ?

[Infinitron]

Oh yeah, sure. A game made by Josh Sawyer is totally in danger of being sexist and patriarchal! We need the help of "Anita Sarkeesian" to make sure that doesn't happen!

Edited September 23, 2012 by Infinitron

[evdk]

I'd say associating with Anita would be a PR poison at this moment.

[Longknife]

We should compromise and make the women strong, independent workers and fighters that don't have to take **** from no man and no man is her boss...

 

But she's still got a killer body.

[kenup]

Yeah, bring Anita Sarkesian here. We really had need for a stereotypical feminist(that even other gamer feminists and other females dislike) that finds fault where there isn't.

Edited September 23, 2012 by kenup

[horocaust]

There were two damsels in distress if P:T (they were even called precisely that!). One was leading TNO into an ambush by bandits, and the other was a demon in disguise. Mentioning that, I really don't think such cliches would be played straight, if at all. Have faith in the development team.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I fully trust Mr Sawyer to portray women in a respectful manner. I like Anita even though I don't always agree with her and I think the reaction to her has been a bit ott but she is not needed here.

 

The Obsidian team are mature and intelligent people.

[Mabster]

Hopefully mentioning Sarkeesian does not invoke the nonsense it does in some corners of the internet. I would like to point out that she is just an internet commentator among hundreds of others, and if you actually watch her Youtube videos, there is nothing in them to fuel the silliness that sometimes circles around her internet persona. Her Youtube stuff is mainly about presenting much discussed topics in well-produced, bite sized videos. Also, feminism is an important topic it should be discussed by as many voices as possible.

 

OT: Going by their track record, I trust Obsidian to make a compelling narrative with more than just token or cliche female characters. That said, this is a useful discussion to have, even if a lot of folks are uncomfortable with it.

[TrashMan]

Maybe talk to Anita, who is behind Tropes vs Women in Video Games?

 

 

Oh gawd....feminists...

 

There goes the neighborhood.....

 

And people actually funded that project?

"pay me to play videogames nad make vidos like the ones you cna already find on YouTube anyway"..

What sheep. What mindless sheep.

Edited September 23, 2012 by TrashMan

[Umberlin]

People regardless of gender come in all flavors, with all manner of imperfections if not outright flaws regardless of said flavor. From my point of view going out of your way to portray either gender a certain way that's poliically correct and 'acceptable' is actually just as insulting as if you'd written every last one as a mindless subserviant prostitute.

 

People come in all flavors. Not one respectful and acceptable flavor. While I do think every character should be written intelligently, with care and respect for the idea that they're trying to craft a convincing sentient being . . . the reality is that sentient beings can be pretty darn unacceptable. I'm all for respect, just with the caution that if you narrow your vision for fear of what people will think . . . sometimes all you end up with is too acceptable. The strong independant woman is fine, I just have the experience in my life that the person proclaiming that they're a strong independant woman that don't need no man is . . . anything but strong or indepedant. The strong women I've met in my life tended to think of themselves as anything but strong.

 

Something to think about, if nothing else . . . because I don't really disagree with the sentiment of the thread, I just caution fanning the flames too far in one direction.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Umberlin

[Nonek]

Kreia, Falls from Grace, Cass.

[soulsource]

Some claim that Sarkeesian exploits the equality topic just to become famous. I don't think these rumours are true in any way, but there are enough people out there who do and who might attack a game in whichs development she is involved.

I agree that the issue is important, so if the developers want to have a focus on gender studies, I suggest them to ask a scientific institute for help, not a youtube phenomenon.

 

I also agree that there should be all varieties of women and men in the game (young-old, skinny-obese, rich-poor, beautiful-ugly, mighty-powerless,...), in all social positions and I think that implementing "sexy" non-functional armour would ruin the games atmosphere (except of course if it also were non-functional ingame: Chain Mail Bikini: Armor Rating 0).

On the other hand, I really liked that in Arcanum the physical starting attributes were slightly different (but overall balanced), depending on the characters sex. It would give the game realism, yet it's a dangerous thing to do, regarding negative publicity.

 

That said, one final remark: I don't have anything against erotics and sex in games, as long as they stay confined to situations where they fit the atmosphere.

[Giantevilhead]

The problem is not the tropes but the lack of representation beyond the tropes.

 

For example, let's say that there are ten Chinese characters in a story and nine of them are evil. Even if all those characters are well written and fully realized, the main representation of Chinese people in the story is that they're evil. Now let's say that there are 100 Caucasian characters in that same story and twenty of them are evil. Even though there are more evil Caucasian characters, it's not as bad due to the fact that Caucasians in other roles get a lot more representation.

 

You can have those tropes as long as you have adequate representation of other roles. You can have damsels in distress and evil temptresses and other tropes, as long as they don't constitute a big percentage of all women in the game. Just like how you can have male stereotypes like dumb jocks and sexless nerds and evil rapists as long as they don't constitute a big percentage of all male characters.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[sorophx]

Maybe talk to Anita[/url]?

lol

 

the only way I'd consider her in PE is as a minor NPC to make fun of in the game

[Kaldurenik]

I'm really looking forward to this game, it makes me want to replay all of the old games (now, if I could just get PS:T to work properly...).

 

However, something I really hope to not see is the stereotypical Damsels in Distress and other unpleasant tropes. I mean, this is a fantasy world, equality is a possibility!

 

This isn't to say that Baldur's Gate, Planescape and all the other games are filled with such tropes, but I do think that it would be awesome if, when making Project Eternity, this is given some real consideration.

 

Maybe talk to Anita, who is behind Tropes vs Women in Video Games?

 

No

[Theobeau]

Regarding this topic, Soulsource and Giantevilhead have far more eloquently put forward the points I wanted to make.

 

The developers in question also have a very good track record when it comes to writing female characters.

[draft1983]

If i remember correctly, im sure in bg2 there was a fair few " princes in distress"

And no, i don;t think we need a femenist hanging around. They don't want equality, they want the world to revolve around them and only them.

[Ausir]

Funny how responses to mentions of Anita in this thread pretty much prove her right regarding sexism among gamers.

[horocaust]

And no, i don;t think we need a femenist hanging around. They don't want equality, they want the world to revolve around them and only them.

philosoraptor.jpg

If feminists don't want gender equality, then who does?

[aramk]

Some claim that Sarkeesian exploits the equality topic just to become famous. I don't think these rumours are true in any way, but there are enough people out there who do and who might attack a game in whichs development she is involved.

 

The whole point about character assination is exactly this. Create enough negativity around an individual so that they or their endeavours are discredited. If a project or group decided not pursue a project with her because of the rumours on the internet, then the harrasment achieved it's purpose.

 

I agree that the issue is important, so if the developers want to have a focus on gender studies, I suggest them to ask a scientific institute for help, not a youtube phenomenon.

 

Gender relations is a sociological issue. There is no "scientific institute" that has the final word. Certainly when talking about overused, unproductive female tropes in video game culture, the "experts" in the field will be those gamers most cognisant and effected by it.

 

For Obsidian though, their characters as a whole are almost always unique and interesting. Gender tropes are a crutch for games that really lack true characterization and depth, and I've always felt that Obsidian create all their charcaters with great care and consideration. I don't think it is going to be a problem, and I certainly don't think they need to get anyone in to advise them.

[Data4]

What is it with people trying to turn a fantasy world from a different age/time/dimension into a carbon copy of our own? I want to see the world of PE in all it's ugliness and grit. I want to see context-appropriate sexism, racism, and all those other -isms people get their panties in a wad over in our own world. I want to see the ugliness of humanity/elvenkind/whatever in full representation and in contrast to all the good qualities of the people of PE.

 

Just don't try to shoehorn 21st century Earth sensibilities into the game where they won't be appropriate.