Children

[l3loodangel]

Nothing living should be exempt from dying (unless in some special, specific, elixir of life sort of explanation).

 

I remember Lothar master of skulls, was a good instance of immortality.

[dlux]

lol, please show me where I wrote that adding children to the game would make it more realistic. Somebody else wrote that, not me.

And I have not said that one feature or another makes a game more realistic.

 

And you didn't answer my question: If having killable children is "realistic", then why can your characters whack the hell out of everything for hours on end and not suffer from fatigue, which would be "unrealistic"?

 

What a contradiction. So I guess having "unrealistic" elements in a game is ok according to you... just not invincible children. Ohhhh, the irony. ^^

 

Sorry bro but i thought you where the person i had originally commented on this thread to.

 

And to answer your question, if children are added there is no logical reason in relation to to either gameplay or realism within the confines of the game world why they should be invincible if no other character is. The realism you are talking about is a- impossible to program as no game can be as real as real life and b- it would make the game suck if the first arrow that hits you leaves you lying on the floor for 3 hours slowly dying or you needed to rest all the time because your character was tired as well as eat, drink, pee, brush your teeth etc etc to then only randomly trip over your own feet and break your neck. so there is good arguments against why the things you have suggested would not work in the game.

 

now can you give me one good reason why , if children are added to the game and everyone else is killable they should be invincible? as far as i can see there is no technical limitations for why that should be. there is no gameplay reason why that should be and there sure as hell is no logical reason in relation the gameworld why that should be.

I'm not saying that children should not be killable (read my posts), the statement that it adds "realism" to the game is just utter bull****, seeing that there are so many unrealistic mechanics in video games anyway (that nobody even complains about).

 

f you want killable kids in a game, fine, I am not arguing with that. Everybody is entitled to write his own opinion in this thread - but if you want to have killable kids then the supporters are going to have to think up something better than "it adds realism to the game" to support their views.

[HansKrSG]

Immortal characters (Except if logical within the story) is silly. And children should probably be a part of the world Obsidian is making, except if they clone themselves or someting like that

Edited September 21, 2012 by HansKrSG

[dlux]

Hmm are there legislation issues involved? I imagine the game would be insta-banned in Germany at least, but I thought a lot of the EU countries had some restrictions on what was/wasn't allowed with regards to harming children in video games?

 

Might be completely wrong though.

This is actually a big problem in Germany, the largest single market for PC games in Europe. A game that includes explicit child murder *could* very, very (very) likely be banned in Germany if it is not cut out of the game.

[HansKrSG]

Hmm are there legislation issues involved? I imagine the game would be insta-banned in Germany at least, but I thought a lot of the EU countries had some restrictions on what was/wasn't allowed with regards to harming children in video games?

 

Might be completely wrong though.

This is actually a big problem in Germany, the largest single market for PC games in Europe. A game that includes explicit child murder *could* very, very (very) likely be banned in Germany if it is not cut out of the game.

 

Thinking about how Germany thought about cencoring anything after WWII and more after the cold war, I am sad to see how they have become so prone to cencoring stuff again. But you know what? ****-explicit deleted (Self cencor, oh the irony) Germany, let the rest of Europe which don't have silly cencor laws have the full product. In the first fallout game, children were removed from the europan version because of Germany...

[molarBear]

Hmm are there legislation issues involved? I imagine the game would be insta-banned in Germany at least, but I thought a lot of the EU countries had some restrictions on what was/wasn't allowed with regards to harming children in video games?

 

Might be completely wrong though.

This is actually a big problem in Germany, the largest single market for PC games in Europe. A game that includes explicit child murder *could* very, very (very) likely be banned in Germany if it is not cut out of the game.

 

Thinking about how Germany thought about cencoring anything after WWII and more after the cold war, I am sad to see how they have become so prone to cencoring stuff again. But you know what? ****-explicit deleted (Self cencor, oh the irony) Germany, let the rest of Europe which don't have silly cencor laws have the full product. In the first fallout game, children were removed from the europan version because of Germany...

 

does every game has to be rated by USK in germany? can't one have unrated games? also what happens if you buy ESRB rated games online?

 

also germany has a good ol' game censoring tradition they even censored river raid back in the days. because apparently it caused military tendencies in german youth. loool

Edited September 21, 2012 by molarBear

[septembervirgin]

Children should be heard about, not otherwise sensed. Surely they should not be targets.

[Luckmann]

Hmm are there legislation issues involved? I imagine the game would be insta-banned in Germany at least, but I thought a lot of the EU countries had some restrictions on what was/wasn't allowed with regards to harming children in video games?

 

Might be completely wrong though.

This is actually a big problem in Germany, the largest single market for PC games in Europe. A game that includes explicit child murder *could* very, very (very) likely be banned in Germany if it is not cut out of the game.

 

Thinking about how Germany thought about cencoring anything after WWII and more after the cold war, I am sad to see how they have become so prone to cencoring stuff again. But you know what? ****-explicit deleted (Self cencor, oh the irony) Germany, let the rest of Europe which don't have silly cencor laws have the full product. In the first fallout game, children were removed from the europan version because of Germany...

Fun fact: The BRD (Bananrepublik Deutschlands) have more things banned and more organisations forbidden than both the Third Reich and the DDR - combined.

 

Go democracy!

 

That said, I do not think it matters. Even if they ban the sale of the product in Germany, it would be hard to prevent the sale of the product electronically through GOG or others. Refuse censoring and refuse rating.

 

Children should be heard about, not otherwise sensed. Surely they should not be targets.

Why?

 

Hmm are there legislation issues involved? I imagine the game would be insta-banned in Germany at least, but I thought a lot of the EU countries had some restrictions on what was/wasn't allowed with regards to harming children in video games?

 

Might be completely wrong though.

This is actually a big problem in Germany, the largest single market for PC games in Europe. A game that includes explicit child murder *could* very, very (very) likely be banned in Germany if it is not cut out of the game.

 

Thinking about how Germany thought about cencoring anything after WWII and more after the cold war, I am sad to see how they have become so prone to cencoring stuff again. But you know what? ****-explicit deleted (Self cencor, oh the irony) Germany, let the rest of Europe which don't have silly cencor laws have the full product. In the first fallout game, children were removed from the europan version because of Germany...

 

does every game has to be rated by USK in germany? can't one have unrated games? also what happens if you buy ESRB rated games online?

 

also germany has a good ol' game censoring tradition they even censored river raid back in the days. because apparently it caused military tendencies in german youth. loool

Afaik, each game is judged independently. So it has very little to do with ratings in the end. It is naturally very hard to control the sale of online sales, of course. Which is why I suggest just giving it a huge middle finger. Let them kick and scream all they want, let them try to block off sites and retailers, it'll bleed through for whomever wants to buy it anyway. Edited September 21, 2012 by Luckmann

[Rabain]

If the people who want it to be realistic for your character to go on a killing spree and kill everything in the world then it should also be possible in game for you not to be able to complete the game due to the whole world agreeing you are an ass and rejecting you from society and prosecuting a war against you on a global scale.

 

In BG for example it is definitely possible to kill the entire world because there are no consequences to breaking the world down into bitesize chunks and defeating it piecemeal. If the Council of Six put a price on your head and contacted all nearby cities and towns it would be almost impossible for you to do anything short of moving to Maztica or something but that isn't a realistic option in a game.

 

I agree killing children, women and dogs should be possible but the consequences should also be realistic. You cannot kill 20+ children in the same city, even if you do it in secret and no one knows who you are without the authorities increasing security in some major way making your attempt at world annihilation short-lived. As powerful as you might be you simply cannot defeat an entire nations resources via stealth and backstab.

[dlux]

Fun fact: The BRD (Bananrepublik Deutschlands)

Now, now, calm down. We are highly industrialized and top world exporter behind China - We are not picking bananas for cash just yet. ^^

[MReed]

My feeling are:

 

Children shouldn't be in the game, except (perhaps) as specific props to be used in quests (e.g. "My child is stuck in a tree, please rescue him!"). Any advantage to immersion is far, far outweighed by the controversy that would be generated, and Obsidian is an established development house with relationships with various publishers. While this project may be theoretically "free of publisher meddling", going to far here might well hurt Obsidian's ability to gain business from publishers in the future. I just don't see an upside here.

 

With that being said, if children are in the game, they should be killable just as any other NPC is. Additionally, while adding a "Childkiller" feat/perk/whatever to the PC that has absolutely no gameplay effect is fair, but actual negative (e.g. everyone in town is hostile to you) consequences should only occur if the murder is witnessed. Consequences are one thing, but there is no value in including an "option" that results in an effective game over.

[Shaewaros]

Since this is going to be M rated game anyway I don't see why children would not be killable.

[Perderabo]

 

I'm not saying that children should not be killable (read my posts), the statement that it adds "realism" to the game is just utter bull****, seeing that there are so many unrealistic mechanics in video games anyway (that nobody even complains about).

 

f you want killable kids in a game, fine, I am not arguing with that. Everybody is entitled to write his own opinion in this thread - but if you want to have killable kids then the supporters are going to have to think up something better than "it adds realism to the game" to support their views.

 

So are you telling me realism logic and consistency within a game world means nothing to you? you wouldn't find it all ridiculous if they decided to make simple cloth armor the heaviest armor available while full steel gothic plate weighed next nothing? I mean this would be unrealistic but screw realism right? it has no place in games .

 

Now i already explained to you why there are unrealistic elements in a game that no one minds but it is mainly because to have them to realistic would ruin the gameplay. (You should really read my last post as i explained this there. ) but that in no way means realism , logic and consistency within a game is not important. it just means there are other things beside realism to consider when adding things to the game.so no i dont mind if there are unrealistic elements in a game as long as they are there for a good reason but i do mind unrealistic elements that are there for no reason as all.

 

lastly , if children are added, it is only realistic, logical and consistent withing the game world that they be just as vulnerable as anyone else. SO it is the supporters of having them follow special rules who have to justify why they think that should be the case. Just saying they should be exempt from some of the normal gameplay mechanics without providing any reason why would mean they are guilty of the special pleading fallacy."Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption."

 

also everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this thread so what is yours and why? or dont you have opinions?

[Luckmann]

Fun fact: The BRD (Bananrepublik Deutschlands)

Now, now, calm down. We are highly industrialized and top world exporter behind China - We are not picking bananas for cash just yet. ^^

It was not a comment on industrial or economic prowess, but one of politics, do not misunderstand. :D

 

Since this is going to be M rated game anyway I don't see why children would not be killable.

Has that actually been confirmed anywhere? I would prefer it to be M or AO, simply because it allows them to take liberties and means that no matter what, they won't have to restrain themselves, and really aim for that vision of the world they want to convey - but I haven't seen anything official on it.

[alphyna]

I would rather not have children at all. Then again, I don't really like them in real life.

[Shadeheart]

Any NPCs in the world, be they children or otherwise, need to adhere to the same rules as all others. If NPCs are killable, child NPCs should be killable too. Any thing else just breaks immersion. Personally, I would like it if it was possible for any NPC (not just party members) to be subject to firely fire. It just makes more sense from an RPG perspective too. For instance, if fighting a hard boss took me 6 tries and on my sucessful attempt, a kid got killed in the cross fire, would my character live with that decision? Or is it time for a reload and attempt number 7?

[Dermi]

Any NPCs in the world, be they children or otherwise, need to adhere to the same rules as all others. If NPCs are killable, child NPCs should be killable too. Any thing else just breaks immersion.

I wouldn't call it immersion, just world's logic. If an NPC is killable, then kid should to, because that's the rule that applies to ALL NPCs. If kids should be unkillable, then devs have to come up with some additional mechanism for making children invulnerable, and it's a waste of resources plus it defiles world's logic and realism (I mean, not *our* world's realism, but game's world). Even if it's made-up world, there are still some rules applied to it, as you said.

[Sabin Stargem]

Don't give them morality armor. That doesn't make sense, and it comes off as pandering to the politically correct.

[Jojobobo]

I think killable children should be the case, with a reputation penalty. I think there should also be some surprises if you go around killing children willy-nilly too, for example if someone could shapeshift to make themselves look like other people then a player attacking someone they thought to be a child would be in for a nasty surprise. I know that's a bit cheesy, but something along those lines might be fun.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Jojobobo

[Perderabo]

I do like the idea's mentioned here how vulnerable children can add to the gameplay and moral choices ingame

[twincast]

For a world to feel real there have to be people below the age of 16.

 

And either all NPC's have magical armor or (preferably) none of them.

 

Giving children special protection just screams of preemptively pandering to the Concerned Citizens™, something this project (like most its Kickstarter-funded RPG brethren) explicitly aims away from, so it'd be a major disappointment if they caved in in any way, most definitely including this one.

 

I doubt they are planning on releasing retail versions, so foreign market copies getting screwed shouldn't be an issue either.

 

I just couldn't play the Fallout games and Skyrim without mods that (re-)introduced the killability of children and I'd prefer to be spared the hassle and for quests and reputations to actually (be able to) use the opportunity to tackle the issue to its whole potential in a mature way.

Edited September 24, 2012 by twincast

[Superdeluxe]

Should Obsidian take the route of Skryim and add children in their rpg, but make them unkillable? Should children be present and killable? Or should children be absent from the game? Thoughts?

 

If you have children, they must be able to die

[Zero]

Since this is going to be M rated game anyway I don't see why children would not be killable.

 

Because the press would throw a ****storm.

[Monkcrab]

A world without children is weird, but often doable thanks to suspension of disbelief.

 

A world with inexplicably immortal children, on the other hand....

[-TK-]

I think they should be in it and killable, it seems a little daft to have children in the game and not make them killable, and it seems dafter still not to include them at all. It's like when you realise that there aren't any privies in tamriel, y'know? It just makes the world less believable.