Please, NO GUNS!

[Starwars]

The more guns the better! Almost.

[J.E. Sawyer]

We will be doing an update on the technology of P:E, but in brief, the firearms of this world are relatively recent inventions and equivalent to the single-shot wheellock weapons found in 16th century Europe. Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes.

[Dem]

Guns are fine, if used properly.

 

It's silly to put such restrictions on creative works.

[Entropious]

However, if guns were to be actually invente, three factors would have to be taken into account. Firstly, they would have to be monstrously powerful, since a bullet, even a stone one, could pretty much go through any Medieval armour like a knife through warm butter.

 

This is a myth. The projectiles of early firearms bounced off of plate armor.

 

No, Sir, this is not a myth. I have a PhD in history, so believe me, I know what I'm writing. Even crossbow bolts and composite arrows pierced plate mail easily.

 

lol credentialism

 

Yes, it's not a myth. It's true though that longbows were actually more powerful than early firearms.

 

No, it is a myth. And yes, I believe that having an education in this particular subject gives me more authority in such matters than a diletantee.

What's more, you are mistaking Welsh lonbgows with Mongolian composite bows. The latter could pierce through an armoured knight clean. And please, if you wish to enter an academic debate, do NOT quote Wikipedia. Thank you.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Entropious

[sesobebo]

I will not, ever, support a "traditional fantasy" RPG with guns.

Where have You read that it's going to be a "traditional fantasy RPG"?

As far as I'm aware, the word from the start was, that this is a completely new world in a completely new setting. Have I missed something?

[Infinitron]

No, it is a myth.

 

Uh, what?

 

Look, maybe in short range, under ideal conditions, a musket ball would put a hole in plate armor. But how likely was that to happen? The fact is that fighting men continued to wear plate well into the Renaissance period and beyond. Why would they do that if it wasn't effective?

 

The "warm butter" simile is what I'm objecting to. It just wasn't that simple.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Infinitron

[Entropious]

No, Sir, at that period plate mail was already replaced by the so-called half-plate, designed to protect the wearer in melee combat and against arrows, not bullets. Moreover, most cavalrymen were themselves armed in pistols and other firearms and, when fighting against infantry armed with guns, simply charged them with melee weapons, lances and so forth, in order to close the distance before the poor footmen could reload.

 

And once again you are wrong, Sir. "Muskets" were a wide term, used for many different types of firearms and utilising different types, sizes and composition of bullets.

 

Please, stop this discussion for your own good. It is obvious you are ignorant on this subject, and simply employ "logic" and "reasoning" in order to continue it.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

This debate actually got me thinking of damage threshold. Will there be different kinds of arrows, both those designed to pierce armor and those designed to tear flesh? In a similar fashion of armor piercing bullets and hollow point bullets in the Fallout games, though with the arrow variants of terms like the broadhead arrow(and that's about how far my arrowhead vocalbulary goes)?

 

And of course the gun bullets, will there be different variants of those(material changes for example, though I don't know if that actually does any difference)?

[Valorian]

We will be doing an update on the technology of P:E, but in brief, the firearms of this world are relatively recent inventions and equivalent to the single-shot wheellock weapons found in 16th century Europe. Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes.

 

If they're very very rare, I can live with that.

Don't want mah bandits and random encounters to shoot me with guns. Also, I'd like guns not to be available for my party either.

[Serenegoose]

Early Renaissance fantasy is my absolute favourite genre. I backed the project on the anticipation that it'd be quite a standard dark ages + magic setting, but consider me even more excited to be wrong

[Infinitron]

lol this is a riot

 

I don't intend to continue this discussion, but just one thing:

 

And once again you are wrong, Sir. "Muskets" were a wide term, used for many different types of firearms and utilising different types, sizes and composition of bullets.

 

Wrong about what? How is it wrong that I employed a catch-all term for the purpose of the discussion? Don't try to shock-and-awe people with superior knowledge that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It's poor form.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Infinitron

[Suen]

Yes please, give me (dwarves with) guns and heavy artilley.

 

 

A fireball can't overheat a metal armor, in the fantasy worlds they probably use special alloys.

And the guns could be shooting something different than regular bullets.

Who knows?

 

Edit: Ah, I missed J.E. Sawyer post xD.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Suen

[lord of flies]

I don't mind having guns in the game, if they are properly implemented and balanced.

 

Introducing steampunk elements into a fantasy world can be refreshing, as Arcanum has already proven.

Guns are not a steampunk element, they are a historical technology dating back to 13th century Ming China, which made their way into Europe in the 14th! You can today purchase many firearms legally! AGH!

[Valorian]

This debate actually got me thinking of damage threshold.

 

Damage treshold shouldn't be a fixed number. It should be a random number withing a range (like 3-6 for example) for each specific armor, with a chance of weapons (with their own armor penetration value) piercing through it and halving the damage reduction value.

 

Fixed damage tresholds make many encounters obsolete. With an armor reduction range it'd be possible to get damaged even against foes with a low damage output. Minimum of 1 damage if the blow hits, I'd say, regardless of armor.

[Manbearpig]

I'm excited about guns, it reminds me of one of my favorite RPGs, M&B Fire and Sword. With magic though I imagine guns will be easier to balance than in M&B. I'm glad that this game is trying new things with the traditional fantasy setup.

[duckroll]

We will be doing an update on the technology of P:E, but in brief, the firearms of this world are relatively recent inventions and equivalent to the single-shot wheellock weapons found in 16th century Europe. Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes.

 

Thanks, can't wait to read more about the game setting.

 

I really hope that there isn't any pressure to cave in on creative decisions because of people threatening to pull out of the Kickstarter. Part of the reason most people are so excited for this is because it is meant to give top-tier creators the chance to finally make the RPG you want, for us. It would become completely meaningless if it becomes a vote by committee design.

 

I think feedback is very important to get a feel of how people are responding to overall issues, but they should not result in direct pandering.

[C2B]

Nevermind

Edited September 18, 2012 by C2B

[mkreku]

Please, stop this discussion for your own good. It is obvious you are ignorant on this subject, and simply employ "logic" and "reasoning" in order to continue it.

 

"Hello. I am a self proclaimed expert in this field, therefore I will call Wikipedia **** without offering any explanation why and then condescend everyone else who posts about this"

[Entropious]

We will be doing an update on the technology of P:E, but in brief, the firearms of this world are relatively recent inventions and equivalent to the single-shot wheellock weapons found in 16th century Europe. Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes.

 

If they're very very rare, I can live with that.

Don't want mah bandits and random encounters to shoot me with guns. Also, I'd like guns not to be available for my party either.

 

Not that rare, as a matter of fact. In 1410, in a battle between Poland/Lithuania and The Teutonic Order/various Western knights, the latter had an entire formation of handgunners supported by cannons.

 

Moreover, according to Polish sources (and please remember that Poland was NOT the centre of European gunsmiths), firearms, both hand-held and larger ones, were used as early as Casimir III the Great (1333-1370).

Edited September 18, 2012 by Entropious

[Entropious]

Please, stop this discussion for your own good. It is obvious you are ignorant on this subject, and simply employ "logic" and "reasoning" in order to continue it.

 

"Hello. I am a self proclaimed expert in this field, therefore I will call Wikipedia **** without offering any explanation why and then condescend everyone else who posts about this"

 

Because ANYONE can post on Wikipedia, and their posts will become permanent as long as they give ANY source AND the topic is not controversial/essential.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Entropious

[TwinkieGorilla]

Guns do NOT belong in a "traditional" fantasy RPG.

 

Guns are in the game. Confirmed. /endthread

[Bos_hybrid]

What's wrong with guns? Essentially is just another sort of ranged weapon. Hopefully with a chance of failure.

[Spider]

Because ANYONE can post on Wikipedia, and their posts will become permanent as long as they give ANY source AND the topic is not controversial/essential.

 

You mean just like ANYONE can say they have a PHd in history on a web forum? I'm not saying you don't, but you're taking a very heavy handed stance in the discussion without providing any back up to your claims what so ever. Then you say wikipedia is a bad source without saying why it's a bad source (specify what is wrong please, not just say it's bad since it's accurate a lot more than it's not).

 

So please provide anything to back up your claims other than just your say so, if you're going to demand the same thing of others (which you have).

 

At the topic at hand, I personally have no problems with guns in this game, and think the developers should act according to their vision for the world.

[Pidesco]

This thread is running off topic, and guns have been confirmed, so topic closed.