Chris Avellone and ME3

[greylord]

Maybe this is why I stick around Obsidian...he recently did an interview question with PCgamer...and his response reminded me why I stick around and remain so interested in Obisidian's games.

 

His portion of the interview

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/mass-effect-3-ending-what-do-game-writers-think/

 

Chris Avellone

 

Avellone is Obsidian

[Volourn]

FO:NV was a blockbuster hit. It sold mroe than even FO3. Very few people panned it. It is, by far, Obsidian's best game. And, crushes the trash known as the Horriifc Trifecta of SOZ, AP, and DS3 whicha re 3 of the worst games ever.

 

ME3's ening isn't hte greatest but not the worstest. In fact, I cna name AT LEAST 5 BIO games with worst endings than ME3 yet the over the top whining and bull it gets make it seem like a crime against humanity. L0L.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Volourn

[greylord]

Have to disagree strongly on the AP portion. Of all the games you just listed, absolutely LOVE AP. I'm beginning to absolutely love DSIII as well, but it's one that takes awhile. That's probably because I was a big fan of the original DS series, so something that different at first leaves you in sort of that in shock type of feel where you realize it's not like the others. Then you realize maybe that's not a bad thing...and then you realize maybe it's awesome.

 

AP though, that got an unfair slam on it. I think people are now starting to look back on it and see it for the gem it really is, but it's taken awhile...much like PS:T.

[Volourn]

Nah. PST was great from the start.

[Humanoid]

They should have made the writers in that article anonymous, would have been much more honest - and fun! As it stands it's mostly a case of being diplomatic and saying nothing at all.

[Gorgon]

My main grief with ME3 is all the railroading, and I'm not talking about linear progression, but in the tone and the narrative. I felt some of the emotional high notes they wrote in there, but they assumed too much with the dream sequences and the ending, they were bloody annoying. A fact exacerbated by them for some reason being done in unskippable slo mo.

 

To my mind they completely lost contact with the end user.

[GhostofAnakin]

To my mind they completely lost contact with the end user.

 

This one statement pretty much sums up what I think went wrong. At some point, the people writing (or if that one forum post allegedly written by a Bio writer is true, two individuals) the story got caught up in their own self perceived storytelling genius and went in a direction that they never stopped to think for a moment if the fans who buy/play these games would actually enjoy. The end product looks like the kind of thing they produced for their own enjoyment, with little regard for the people buying their games.

 

Let's face it, the majority of fans don't like the ending. Even a lot of the fans who are defending BioWare and saying "don't change anything" or "it's their game, they can write what they want" also acknowledge the ending is weak. They simply don't agree that BioWare should be forced to change it. So I'd be curious to see how many people actually LIKED the ending. Not tolerated it, not disliked it but are fine with BioWare sticking to their vision, but actually LIKED it. That that number is very likely low suggests even more that BioWare didn't even think about anyone other than patting their own creative genius on the back when they decided that was the way to go.

[Jaesun]

The whole ME3 ending DRAMA is so ridiculous. It really need to stop.

 

MCA is spot on listening to the fans, Based off of community mods. Surprised they didn't pick op on the huge UI mods that were probably the #2 in downloaded.

[Nepenthe]

To my mind they completely lost contact with the end user.

 

This one statement pretty much sums up what I think went wrong. At some point, the people writing (or if that one forum post allegedly written by a Bio writer is true, two individuals) the story got caught up in their own self perceived storytelling genius and went in a direction that they never stopped to think for a moment if the fans who buy/play these games would actually enjoy. The end product looks like the kind of thing they produced for their own enjoyment, with little regard for the people buying their games.

 

Let's face it, the majority of fans don't like the ending. Even a lot of the fans who are defending BioWare and saying "don't change anything" or "it's their game, they can write what they want" also acknowledge the ending is weak. They simply don't agree that BioWare should be forced to change it. So I'd be curious to see how many people actually LIKED the ending. Not tolerated it, not disliked it but are fine with BioWare sticking to their vision, but actually LIKED it. That that number is very likely low suggests even more that BioWare didn't even think about anyone other than patting their own creative genius on the back when they decided that was the way to go.

I'm sorry I can "like" this post only once without creating multiple accounts for it.

[Sannom]

MCA is spot on listening to the fans, Based off of community mods. Surprised they didn't pick op on the huge UI mods that were probably the #2 in downloaded.

Those were designed and streamlined for the PC though, not consoles. Content is universal between platforms, interface and controllers are not.

[Gromnir]

...

 

am wondering if the aforementioned chrisA comments was meant as humor, 'cause we has seen more than a few chrisA comments that is revealing just how outta touch he is with fans. am recollecting some youtube video o' a gdc event with chrisA doing all the speaking. were just plain weird to listen to some o' his reflections regarding kotor2 and ps:t. for instance, apparantly nobody complained 'bout the absence o' elves and dwarves in ps:t.

 

*snort*

 

am not doubting that chrisA genuine believes that feedback is important, but one suspects that much as bioware misreading o' datamining has resulted in peculiar conclusions, we believe that the obsidnaties is likewise willful obtuse or similarly incapable o' reading data correct. explains stuff like the final fo:nv dlcs and the more bizarre chrisA comments we has seen... from time-to-time.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sannom]

am not doubting that chrisA genuine believes that feedback is important, but one suspects that much as bioware misreading o' datamining has resulted in peculiar conclusions, we believe that the obsidnaties is likewise willful obtuse or similarly incapable o' reading data correct. explains stuff like the final fo:nv dlcs and the more bizarre chrisA comments we has seen... from time-to-time.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I'm not sure that Obsidian uses data as Bioware does, at least the examples given in that interview seem to point towards Obsidian thinking more in terms of 'big perks' they can give their fanbase in DLC and expansions.

[Gromnir]

am not doubting that chrisA genuine believes that feedback is important, but one suspects that much as bioware misreading o' datamining has resulted in peculiar conclusions, we believe that the obsidnaties is likewise willful obtuse or similarly incapable o' reading data correct. explains stuff like the final fo:nv dlcs and the more bizarre chrisA comments we has seen... from time-to-time.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I'm not sure that Obsidian uses data as Bioware does, at least the examples given in that interview seem to point towards Obsidian thinking more in terms of 'big perks' they can give their fanbase in DLC and expansions.

 

seems like semantics. any added feature or gameplay improvement could be characterized as a "big perk," no?

 

regardless, we thinks chrisA is kinda an amusing choice as a poster child for developers who embrace fan-feedback. equally ridiculous would be if Gromnir wrote an essay on the merits o' polite forum behavior, or vol lauded the importance o' reasoned arguments and good spelling. weird and wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bos_hybrid]

See I'm in two camps.

 

1. I thinks it's a good thing to listen to fans.

2. It's not a good thing to listen to fans.

 

See fans can be the best and the worst people to listen to. And sometimes they don't even know what they want.

 

Lets take ME3 for example:

 

A large portion of the fans want bio to change the ending, but how it's changed is a divided opinion. Some just want the entire ending reworked, some want it to be indoctrination, others want it to be a dream, another group just wants slide shows to show want happened to the ME characters and worlds. Then you have an entire different group that liked the endings, another that doesn't want bio to change the ending due to artistic integrity(something bio was previously willing to forgo in order to hit all demographics).

 

So who should developers listen to? The majority? The minority? The 'fanboys'? The naysayers? They all have logical arguments for their viewpoint(most of the time). In the end the key to a good developer(IMO) is one the knows when to listen(other devs/fans etc) and when to ignore and finally when to just push on(recognize the right time to do so).

[Flouride]

I agree with Bos_hybrid, you should listen to the fans to a some point, but when you start jumping everytime the loudest part of your fans bark you are doing it wrong. Sometimes the feedback can be helpful, for example whoever thought the Mako driving or planet scanning was fun, was dead wrong. So listening to fans on those issues would help. (Unless there really are people who enjoyed those parts of the game, I personally don't know anyone)

 

I think the correct method is to do the games you yourself want to play and take some of the fan feeback that feels right for you (developer). Adding 15151 romancable chars is not the way to go, even though your (teen and female) fans demand it. Because for every fan demanding char X to be romancable by both male/female/dwarf chars, there's 1 who does not care for that at all, in fact they will feel the total opposite when every damn char in the game is suddenly falling in love with you.

[Nepenthe]

I mostly agree with Bos_hybrid. However, in this particular case I find that _something_ needs to be done to the ending from making it less _objectively_ bad. I'd like something that the whole creative team can sign off on as a starting point, and ideally something that fits the series thematically, as well.

 

I think that a colossal mistake has been made when comparing this to, say, the Lost ending and how "you can't please everybody when you have big fans"... When the issue is, that what they did is just simply ****ing terrible. Whatever they do know is probably still going to be subject to the "you can't please everybody", even in a best case scenario, but even that will be a colossal boost in quality over what we have now.

[BobSmith101]

When you have a 90%+ disaproval rating for an aspect of the game, you have clearly done something very wrong.

[Nonek]

Having a few sherbet's with my old mucker Boris last night, and the ire with which he vented his spleen on the game was quite something, it only ended when I eventually went cross eyed and shouted at him that I didn't care. For the sake of my poor old shell likes, I too am hoping that they'll attend to the endings in some manner. Maybe a musical number and some racy burlesque with Miranda, Ashley and the squid heads, all ****, teeth and tiara's.

[Volourn]

"Let's face it, the majority of fans don't like the ending. "

 

"When you have a 90%+ disaproval rating for an aspect of the game, you have clearly done something very wrong. "

 

The majority of people are stupid. This is doubly true for people on the interent. And, triply so for customers/fans.

 

 

BIO's biggest weakness is they listen to the idiotic loudmouth fans too much. Don't people whoc ry about the focus on romances realize the reason BIO is focused on romances (gay?striaght/weird/random ones) is becuasse of BIO listening to stupid fans with too much time on their hands?

[Nepenthe]

"Let's face it, the majority of fans don't like the ending. "

 

"When you have a 90%+ disaproval rating for an aspect of the game, you have clearly done something very wrong. "

 

The majority of people are stupid. This is doubly true for people on the interent. And, triply so for customers/fans.

 

 

BIO's biggest weakness is they listen to the idiotic loudmouth fans too much. Don't people whoc ry about the focus on romances realize the reason BIO is focused on romances (gay?striaght/weird/random ones) is becuasse of BIO listening to stupid fans with too much time on their hands?

Well, in this case people are telling them they should've listened to their Senior Writer, which kind of takes the whole thing to another level (which I don't expect you or anyone else opposing the "movement" to accept).

[Volourn]

But most of the people who are are bashing the ending in an over the top way (as opposed to simply disliking/dissapointed by it) are not syaing they should have gone with the other ending. In fact, many have stated that the other proposed ending was dumb or even dumber. *shrug*

 

Some people simply want a Happy Happy Ending, some somehow think ending slide = best ending ever, and others don't even know what they want except to simply they hate it that's that, and now all the 'fun' they had over 3 games is completely and utterly ruined. L0LZ

 

And, as far as I'm cocnerned, as long a speople ignore the worst beginning to any BIO game ever, they compeletly and utterly missed the point when they rag ion anending that sin't even one of BIO's worst 5 endings. HA!

[Giantevilhead]

Whether or not the ending should be changed really depends on the type of game.

 

Planescape: Torment is a very layered and nuanced game that was always meant to be open to interpretation. The players are supposed to speculate about the true identity of The Nameless One and the crime he committed. There are hints and clue that support many different theories about The Nameless One's identity. So it wouldn't make any sense for Avellone to change the ending to reveal The Namelesss One's real identity, even if everyone wanted it, because that runs counter to everything in the game.

 

Mass Effect is a very straightforward series with a lot of fan service. The franchise is all about fantasy fulfillment for the audience. The story is written to play out the way that the fans want. Mass Effect's plots, themes, characters, and intentions that are not very layered or obscured and they are not very open to interpretation. The developers even said that the ending would be conclusive and not leave lingering questions.

 

Mass Effect 3's ending on the other hand, runs counter to the entire franchise. It doesn't make any sense for 99.9% of the series to be like Flash Gordon and then suddenly have the last 0.1% become Blade Runner.

[Orchomene]

I've not played ME3 and probably won't, but I don't understand people saying that the last five minutes of the game ruined all the experience for them.

A game is just in the fun you have to play it and not just the end.

 

Bioware shouldn't have to modify its creation just because the fans don't like the end. It's not a big deal to have an end that is not what some people are expecting. All in all, the majority of the gamers don't even play up to the end, so...

[Nepenthe]

I've not played ME3 and probably won't, but I don't understand people saying that the last five minutes of the game ruined all the experience for them.

A game is just in the fun you have to play it and not just the end.

 

Bioware shouldn't have to modify its creation just because the fans don't like the end. It's not a big deal to have an end that is not what some people are expecting. All in all, the majority of the gamers don't even play up to the end, so...

Since you preface your argument by saying you have no idea what you are talking about...

 

And I agree, Bioware shouldn't change the ending because a bunch of fanboys are clamoring for it. They should change it because it ****ING SUCKS and they know it themselves.

[Humanoid]

Coldly, it's just a sound, rational decision to change, expand or otherwise tweak the ending. On one hand what's at stake is reportedly a couple of bruised egos. On the other hand you have wins all around for both developer and customer in terms of good business sense and satisfaction.

 

When businesses go beyond their legally required responsibility to help a customer - stuff like out-of-warranty service, cross-shipping, courtesy cars, etc - it'd be naive to view it as charity; it's building up goodwill which is just smart business. In the same way one shouldn't look at any potential improvement to a game ending as pandering to whingers, but again, as simply good business sense.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Humanoid